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Post by jakeharris on Jul 20, 2016 20:17:58 GMT -6
Using mono audio-tracks, you won't hear anything. Using stereo audio-tracks, if the phase of the mic is inverted, you will hear it go all wide and whatever on headphones. Depends on what Martin used, and if the mic is inverted or not.
Both are simple enough to check.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 20, 2016 20:23:18 GMT -6
i.e. if you printed the soundcloud files with the mic takes on stereo tracks, your U47 file could be a bit trippy on headphones.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 20:26:19 GMT -6
Another reason not to put reverb on test tracks. (Making them stereo)
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2016 20:44:34 GMT -6
Heh. Yeah, Martin, I'm afraid your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 20, 2016 20:46:49 GMT -6
jake, I did put some reverb on it, was that a mistake because it made it stereo and made the U47 sound different that it should?
When we were tracking it, nothing sounded unusual, in fact, it was the finest sounding mic I've ever heard, just to be clear.
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2016 20:54:05 GMT -6
jake, I did put some reverb on it, was that a mistake because it made it stereo and made the U47 sound different that it should? When we were tracking it, nothing sounded unusual, in fact, it was the finest sounding mic I've ever heard, just to be clear. No you didn't do anything wrong. It would be the polarity that was inverted, not the "phase" (there's no "phase" to be had in a mono track). So if you're listening back and forth to the various clips, there's not one bit of difference. If you combine two clips, listening to both at once, and one's polarity is flipped, then and only then can anything be "out of phase". Your clips are all good. Doesn't make a lick of difference if one of the mic's polarity is flipped.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 20:59:27 GMT -6
And if your friend is listening to them at the same time, then he's doing it wrong.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 20, 2016 21:15:07 GMT -6
ahh, my friend just clarified, and said "the difference is only on headphones, has no effect on anything else... You also lose articulation and definition. And those guys are absolutely right, things get wider, softer and weirder, including the bass (bigger low-end wasn't a good description, the bass gets wider and loses definition).
Now I can sleep better, I was beginning to think I was crazy for thinking the u47 was as perfect as any mic I've ever heard. It was wonderful of Jeremy to put this together, I now have a really great benchmark to judge by.
A little later, I'll post the M49 and U67 files, even though they're different takes, and not exactly valid when trying to make a fair comparison. I think it would make the thread even more interesting.
The U67 sound began to grow on me the more I listened.
to be continued..
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2016 21:23:53 GMT -6
ahh, my friend just clarified, and said "the difference is only on headphones, has no effect on anything else... You also lose articulation and definition. And those guys are absolutely right, things get wider, softer and weirder, including the bass (bigger low-end wasn't a good description, the bass gets wider and loses definition). Now I can sleep better, I was beginning to think I was crazy for thinking the u47 was as perfect as any mic I've ever heard. It was wonderful of Jeremy to put this together, I now have a really great benchmark to judge by. A little later, I'll post the M49 and U67 files, even though they're different takes, and not exactly valid when trying to make a fair comparison. I think it would make the thread even more interesting. The U67 sound began to grow on me the more I listened. to be continued.. What is he talking about? "Only on headphones" Either I'm missing something about what he's saying or he's very confused.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 21:25:52 GMT -6
Hey Martin - meant to say this earlier. My only complaint with the Blueline M7 was exactly what we're hearing - the tightening/pinching. It's what I'm talking about when I say I want a mic to remain consitent in the frequency range no matter the dynamic. Vintage mics/capsule handle whatever is thrown at them - no "tightening." Seems like newer mics - whether it's cheaper materials, build quality or whatever - just don't handle transients with the same ease. Shannon actually described it as "freaking out" lol...I think MOST of this - like 90% - is from the capsule...but I think you could also attribute some of that midrange meat in the 47 to the big transformer. In one of the last arguments Tony and I had (oh, the memories...) we argued about the MK-U47 MkII with the Blueline. I thought - while it sounded really good - it had a tendency to get tight with vocal transients and ultimately - to me - didn't sound like a traditional 47. He...ahem...disagreed. As we can hear, man, when a 47 is right, it's hard to beat.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 21:26:52 GMT -6
ahh, my friend just clarified, and said "the difference is only on headphones, has no effect on anything else... You also lose articulation and definition. And those guys are absolutely right, things get wider, softer and weirder, including the bass (bigger low-end wasn't a good description, the bass gets wider and loses definition). Now I can sleep better, I was beginning to think I was crazy for thinking the u47 was as perfect as any mic I've ever heard. It was wonderful of Jeremy to put this together, I now have a really great benchmark to judge by. A little later, I'll post the M49 and U67 files, even though they're different takes, and not exactly valid when trying to make a fair comparison. I think it would make the thread even more interesting. The U67 sound began to grow on me the more I listened. to be continued.. What is he talking about? "Only on headphones" Either I'm missing something about what he's saying or he's very confused. media.giphy.com/media/119SFXjoMsax6o/giphy.gif
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 20, 2016 21:43:41 GMT -6
Yep, let's move on about the phase.
I agree John, I've had 2 Blueline capsules, three Chinese capsules in what were otherwise good mics, and they all did what you describe. The redline is better, but still isn't able to do what I heard in this U47, or the Soyuz 0-17, (the tube one).
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 21:50:22 GMT -6
timcampbell - what would you call what we're describing?
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2016 21:54:33 GMT -6
heheh. Not trying to be a stickler! Just trying to clarify/figure out what's going on.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 22:28:17 GMT -6
Oh, I agree...I just have a feeling it would be a never-ending pursuit...
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Post by timcampbell on Jul 21, 2016 0:50:38 GMT -6
John, your question is more complex than you realize. First you'd have to establish are these differences only when comparing modern capsules to vintage M7's or also when comparing them to K47's? Many times older M7's pvc membranes have stiffened over the years, causing a softening of the high frequencies making them sound particularly musical. If you find the difference also exists between newer capsules and Neumann's own K47 then that would point to that a slight mechanical flaw has been made and is being repeated. Old school companies like Neumann have never seen capsule production as a cash cow, just the opposite, probably losing a bit of money proportionately on it and making up the difference by overcharging for the rest of the production. Proper capsule production is labor intensive. Modern capsules are churned out for profit using TEF simulations and overly filtered frequency measurements. There is no substitute for a real anechoic chamber,a sympathetic, musical pair of ears and a desire to make a wonderful capsule rather than a huge profit. I'm currently working on a capsule that addresses exactly the distracting, non musical artifacts you're describing.
I also find it impossible to be analytical about files with reverb. The additive equalization contributed by the reverb blurs the true frequency response of the microphone. Often this makes the file sound more strident or tubby in the lower mids.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 21, 2016 7:57:29 GMT -6
John, your question is more complex than you realize. First you'd have to establish are these differences only when comparing modern capsules to vintage M7's or also when comparing them to K47's? Many times older M7's pvc membranes have stiffened over the years, causing a softening of the high frequencies making them sound particularly musical. If you find the difference also exists between newer capsules and Neumann's own K47 then that would point to that a slight mechanical flaw has been made and is being repeated. Old school companies like Neumann have never seen capsule production as a cash cow, just the opposite, probably losing a bit of money proportionately on it and making up the difference by overcharging for the rest of the production. Proper capsule production is labor intensive. Modern capsules are churned out for profit using TEF simulations and overly filtered frequency measurements. There is no substitute for a real anechoic chamber,a sympathetic, musical pair of ears and a desire to make a wonderful capsule rather than a huge profit. I'm currently working on a capsule that addresses exactly the distracting, non musical artifacts you're describing. I also find it impossible to be analytical about files with reverb. The additive equalization contributed by the reverb blurs the true frequency response of the microphone. Often this makes the file sound more strident or tubby in the lower mids. I'll buy that cap when you're done!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 8:29:52 GMT -6
Thanks Tim, that helps to explain what might be going on in the very good, well made mics John and I have heard that just bug us.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 21, 2016 13:00:36 GMT -6
I have a blue line capsule in my main vocal mic and when I try to sing certain phrases 2.5khz-4khz sounds like the capsule is not as forgiving as Neumann capsules. The capsule is giving in or "buckling under pressure" figuratively and probably literally. I was going to get a Blackspade um17/18 awhile ago but decided to take same capsule (BlueLine / trafo ( bv08 based )and throw it in a fet based mic. I have been happy with the modded mic however definitely can relate to JohnKenn description of said capsule reaction/ performance.
An amazing mic has been on my wish list/ to buy list for awhile, however VK Nashville / Zen pro is 5-6 hours away so I have no way to demo without road trip, then I'm not in my room.
So aside from Tim Campbell / Neumann / Theirsch what other capsule makers are doing amazing work? ADK?
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Post by joseph on Jul 21, 2016 13:15:45 GMT -6
Josephson - CK12 type in their C716 and 700A and S. C37 inspired in their C715. E22s SDC. Fantastic microphones, some of the best capsules in the world.
MBHO CK12 custom tuned for Bock mics.
Flea (F7 Mylar), skinned by Thiersch I think but not 100% sure, which is apparently smoother than either the PVC (blue-line) or Mylar (red-line) Thierschs in their 47 inspired mic. They use Tim's in their C12 clone.
Gefell M7, omnis, nickel diaphragm although Klaus says the M7 PVC formulation ain't what it used to be.
And Schoeps SDCs, of course.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 21, 2016 13:45:24 GMT -6
I have the ADK GK-12d, which is their CK-12 type of capsule, in my 251 clone, and it sounds quite nice, very smooth. I tried to get a long with the Peluso CEK-12 for a while, but it was definitely doing that pinching thing people are talking about, kind of closing up with certain inputs, just a weird frequency response.
The ADK capsule is much better in this regard and has more of a warm and open sound. I'm still getting to know this mic, but it seems to have a pretty classic sound on a number of different sources. I'd recommend it, certainly. It's also a good bargain if you want a higher end sound but at a slightly lower entry price. I haven't tried their 251 style capsule, but I "hear good things" about the whole line so I'd be open to trying more. ADK seems to be a bit of a sleeper or an underdog in the capsule world, but I think they deserve some attention.
One of these days I'll try out some of the historically accurate $400+ capsules, like Tim's, Beezneez, or Eric Heiserman's, but I don't feel too much pressure to do so. It'd be nice to have a C-12 around again. Mine got turned into other things while I was fighting with the capsules and tweaking sounds.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 21, 2016 13:54:03 GMT -6
One weird thing about my GK-12d capsule is the front and back sides sounded significantly different. One side seemed more flattering on vocals, so I flipped it around that way. I don't know how common it is for capsules to be matched front and back, but this one apparently is not.
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Post by ragan on Jul 21, 2016 14:15:19 GMT -6
I have a Z Mod 251, 67 and 49 here right now. Trying to decide which one to keep. The ADK Z Mod stuff is definitely top shelf. Some of the best mics I've ever heard.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 21, 2016 15:40:40 GMT -6
I have a blue line capsule in my main vocal mic and when I try to sing certain phrases 2.5khz-4khz sounds like the capsule is not as forgiving as Neumann capsules. The capsule is giving in or "buckling under pressure" figuratively and probably literally. I was going to get a Blackspade um17/18 awhile ago but decided to take same capsule (BlueLine / trafo ( bv08 based )and throw it in a fet based mic. I have been happy with the modded mic however definitely can relate to JohnKenn description of said capsule reaction/ performance. An amazing mic has been on my wish list/ to buy list for awhile, however VK Nashville / Zen pro is 5-6 hours away so I have no way to demo without road trip, then I'm not in my room. So aside from Tim Campbell / Neumann / Theirsch what other capsule makers are doing amazing work? ADK? Shannon Rhoades Shannon
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Post by chasmanian on Jul 21, 2016 15:59:50 GMT -6
I have a blue line capsule in my main vocal mic and when I try to sing certain phrases 2.5khz-4khz sounds like the capsule is not as forgiving as Neumann capsules. The capsule is giving in or "buckling under pressure" figuratively and probably literally. I was going to get a Blackspade um17/18 awhile ago but decided to take same capsule (BlueLine / trafo ( bv08 based )and throw it in a fet based mic. I have been happy with the modded mic however definitely can relate to JohnKenn description of said capsule reaction/ performance. An amazing mic has been on my wish list/ to buy list for awhile, however VK Nashville / Zen pro is 5-6 hours away so I have no way to demo without road trip, then I'm not in my room. So aside from Tim Campbell / Neumann / Theirsch what other capsule makers are doing amazing work? ADK? Shannon Rhoades Shannon + infinity!!!! (meaning + way more than a million, billion trillion.......!!!!!)
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