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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 4, 2016 22:09:40 GMT -6
While I strongly disagree with Steve Albini about most things, especially his pandering to wanna-bees, the fact is that you've never needed a corporate "record deal" to attract a big audience. You just need to start at the bottom filling living rooms before attempting to fill larger venues. The experience of an artist is as much an experience of the other fans as it is of the music.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 5, 2016 2:35:42 GMT -6
I think Albini looks in the right direction because post capitalisim begun in 2008.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 5, 2016 7:09:02 GMT -6
Yet, the German government protects German music by mandating a quota of German music being played. Sounds like Germany didn't change with the technology, or the "free market". They protected their music to the benefit of German songwriters, musicians and labels. I had an interesting conversation on this subject with a German label owner in a Venice Beach CA coffee house. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it. In this case he was not right informed. Year by year someone talks about such a law, but yet it never hit the road. There is a voluntary rate of 35% but it's not a law - private broadcast still plays what pays. I guess public broadcast service is doing it. What percent of private broadcasting would you estimate is German content? In researching this I see that France, Canada and other countries have similar quotas.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 5, 2016 7:46:33 GMT -6
In this case he was not right informed. Year by year someone talks about such a law, but yet it never hit the road. There is a voluntary rate of 35% but it's not a law - private broadcast still plays what pays. I guess public broadcast service is doing it. What percent of private broadcasting would you estimate is German content? In researching this I see that France, Canada and other countries have similar quotas. I think with all the small private stations the private ones are the majority. The program which I love is not made by PBS - its private. Bad news - the very small local stations pay near to nothing. Its like everywhere money rules the game even in PBS which we, the german tax payers, finance. If you ask me they should close the PBS a few exceptions left. They more and more produce the same shit as the private ones so why giving them 8 Billion Euro a year?
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Post by swurveman on Jul 5, 2016 7:57:33 GMT -6
While I strongly disagree with Steve Albini about most things, especially his pandering to wanna-bees, the fact is that you've never needed a corporate "record deal" to attract a big audience. You just need to start at the bottom filling living rooms before attempting to fill larger venues. The experience of an artist is as much an experience of the other fans as it is of the music. I was in Los Angeles during the 80's scene, where local LA bands (Poison, Ratt etc.) played to large audiences at the Whiskey, the Rainbow and other venues. I don't see how these bands could have broadened their audience beyond LA without the help of a record label, or some other source of funding. The promotional and traveling costs imo were just too high and no bank was going to give the individual bands venture capital. The music business became a profitable, national business because of this model. Today, not only is there not anywhere near the kind of size and scope of "scene" in LA that there was in the 80"s as far as I could tell from my recent visit, but there is a neutered national presence due to one of the key components of taking a local scene national (album sales), is now gone, replaced by illegal downloading, scant digital radio income and single iTunes downloads. I live in a typical Midwest town where we used to get young bands breaking nationally. They don't come anymore and I suspect this is true over most of the country. So, I don't see the Albini model happening. We have a fine 1,500 seat Civic Auditorium and a University facility that seat 9,000. From the late 60's to the 90's these venues were booked continually. Today, no bands come.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 5, 2016 8:28:12 GMT -6
Sometimes smart people are just plain wrong.
It seems to me that having your own download system would be the best way to get paid, if you can drive people there.
Fairly well known and moderately successful artists like Cat Power had to declare bankruptcy. Highly successful acts like The Pretenders can barely sell a new CD. So it seems like the game to play is small ball.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 5, 2016 12:57:22 GMT -6
The current system seemed to work alright for this guy. Nearly 800 million views and counting.
IMO the reason acts like Courtney Barnett, King Gizzard and Goyte are doing well is because they have taken control of their own music and embraced the current system using the tools now available ie. social media, video, live concerts etc. rather than sitting around moaning they can't get a record deal or if they have, that they're being ripped off. They also own or have started their own record labels and/or publishing.
Also they all come from Melbourne, Australia which probably has about the most vibrant alternative music scene anywhere on the planet.
The vinyl market here is also getting bigger by the month and most alternative bands are releasing material on vinyl.
Half the albums my studio partner's band sell at their gigs are vinyl and vinyl is more profitable than CD's.
Alternative/independent radio is another important factor. Here we have 3RRR and 3PBS which use listener sponsorships and also support from local businesses to operate. However with the transfer to digital radio I have no doubt the major players will be lobbying the politicians to price the independent operators out of the market so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future.
I have also worked on and off with a local film production company (mainly gaffering/grips and sometimes sound) and many of the young filmmakers I know are also fans and friends of many of these musicians and assist them in producing music videos.
However the caveat here is we are talking mostly alternative music. A Kenny Rogers cover band probably ain't going to cut it! (I started out live mixing a Kenny Rogers cover band more than 30 years ago - but that's another story!)
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Post by drbill on Jul 5, 2016 13:39:05 GMT -6
'Selling' music is a completely different paradigm to what it was 30 years ago. Playing live is where the money is today PROVIDING you can generate a loyal following and have a well oiled merchandising and publicity machine. This can, and is being done DIY fashion with quite good success by those who are embracing this new paradigm. That's fine if you're an alt rock or folk band and don't have a family at home, and don't mind touring 200+ days a year. Unfortunately for the artist - there are large amounts of music that don't fit the "play live and merchandise the crap out of your fans" paradigm. Not to mention that if the songwriter is not the artist (like for example John who writes for a lot of other artists), that paradigm leaves you *******. You get nothing off TShirts, Caps, Posters, Coffee Mugs, etc.. I'm sick of hearing Steve's rant. I get it. It works for a few, but it's NOT the answer to the problem. The fair and legal way is for people to pay for the music they listen to. It right. There's a time honored tradition. It's the law. Of course, the government has to get on board with finding a way to enforce the laws they create which at this point doesn't look good. (How totally bizarre is THAT?!?!?!? They've make laws and can't or won't enforce them. But somehow they've figured out ways to make sure I don't speed and monetize it.....), We're in the wild west of online distribution right now, but I hope that before I die and leave my catalog to my wife and kids that the gov will figure things out in an equitable way. Or that the fans will grow a conscience. and yeah, I realize it doesn't look good for either one right now....
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Post by rowmat on Jul 5, 2016 13:55:24 GMT -6
'Selling' music is a completely different paradigm to what it was 30 years ago. Playing live is where the money is today PROVIDING you can generate a loyal following and have a well oiled merchandising and publicity machine. This can, and is being done DIY fashion with quite good success by those who are embracing this new paradigm. That's fine if you're an alt rock or folk band and don't have a family at home, and don't mind touring 200+ days a year. Unfortunately for the artist - there are large amounts of music that don't fit the "play live and merchandise the crap out of your fans" paradigm. Not to mention that if the songwriter is not the artist (like for example John who writes for a lot of other artists), that paradigm leaves you *******. You get nothing off TShirts, Caps, Posters, Coffee Mugs, etc.. I'm sick of hearing Steve's rant. I get it. It works for a few, but it's NOT the answer to the problem. The fair and legal way is for people to pay for the music they listen to. It right. There's a time honored tradition. It's the law. Of course, the government has to get on board with finding a way to enforce the laws they create which at this point doesn't look good. (How totally bizarre is THAT?!?!?!? They've make laws and can't or won't enforce them. But somehow they've figured out ways to make sure I don't speed and monetize it.....), We're in the wild west of online distribution right now, but I hope that before I die and leave my catalog to my wife and kids that the gov will figure things out in an equitable way. Or that the fans will grow a conscience. and yeah, I realize it doesn't look good for either one right now.... A more equitable streaming/distribution platform is one solution... Hopefully more of these fairer services will appear. The catch is I have little doubt that those with vested interests such as CrApple will likely attempt to block these other streaming services from being accessed via their hardware, ie phones, tablets etc.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 5, 2016 15:38:44 GMT -6
The current system seemed to work alright for this guy. Nearly 800 million views and counting. IMO the reason acts like Courtney Barnett, King Gizzard and Goyte are doing well is because they have taken control of their own music and embraced the current system using the tools now available ie. social media, video, live concerts etc. rather than sitting around moaning they can't get a record deal or if they have, that they're being ripped off. They also own or have started their own record labels and/or publishing. Also they all come from Melbourne, Australia which probably has about the most vibrant alternative music scene anywhere on the planet. The vinyl market here is also getting bigger by the month and most alternative bands are releasing material on vinyl. Half the albums my studio partner's band sell at their gigs are vinyl and vinyl is more profitable than CD's. Alternative/independent radio is another important factor. Here we have 3RRR and 3PBS which use listener sponsorships and also support from local businesses to operate. However with the transfer to digital radio I have no doubt the major players will be lobbying the politicians to price the independent operators out of the market so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future. I have also worked on and off with a local film production company (mainly gaffering/grips and sometimes sound) and many of the young filmmakers I know are also fans and friends of many of these musicians and assist them in producing music videos. However the caveat here is we are talking mostly alternative music. A Kenny Rogers cover band probably ain't going to cut it! (I started out live mixing a Kenny Rogers cover band more than 30 years ago - but that's another story!) I agree with this you have to change you thinking of copyright. You have to use the modern media. My new business plan is based on a collaboration of old a new channels.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 5, 2016 19:51:55 GMT -6
seems like playing live is the only real money maker, if you can develop a following... Nope. I'm in that business. It's ridiculous how little the majority of bands are paid. By the time Windish or Paradigm takes their 10% and the Manager his 15% these bands are like touring gypsies. Most have to have other jobs part of the year, including guitar lessons on the road at each show or whatever it takes. It's insulting that they have to try and sell T-Shirts to put some money in their pockets. Kids still love them and they are celebrities, but when your "celebrity" only garners you a $.99/$.66 download or a percentage of a $20 T -Shirt, and $1,000 a week for living in a Bandwagon it's nuts. There needs to be a new way to "monetize" their talent and celebrity if the song download isn't any longer that tool. There are a lot of people trying to get their head around it. Someone is going to eventually disrupt the model with a great idea. But musicians will just keep grinding, they are a special breed.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 5, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -6
The '80s were an anomaly and never the norm. Today we're back to singles and shows. Mark my words, some kids are going to blow the whole thing up on stage. Only engaged fans buy recordings, tee shirts or tickets. Muzak doesn't engage fans. Live music does.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jul 5, 2016 22:48:31 GMT -6
seems like playing live is the only real money maker, if you can develop a following... Nope. I'm in that business. It's ridiculous how little the majority of bands are paid. By the time Windish or Paradigm takes their 10% and the Manager his 15% these bands are like touring gypsies. Most have to have other jobs part of the year, including guitar lessons on the road at each show or whatever it takes. It's insulting that they have to try and sell T-Shirts to put some money in their pockets. Kids still love them and they are celebrities, but when your "celebrity" only garners you a $.99/$.66 download or a percentage of a $20 T -Shirt, and $1,000 a week for living in a Bandwagon it's nuts. There needs to be a new way to "monetize" their talent and celebrity if the song download isn't any longer that tool. There are a lot of people trying to get their head around it. Someone is going to eventually disrupt the model with a great idea. But musicians will just keep grinding, they are a special breed. A large portion of my income is from playing in club date bands that also play weddings, which pay really well. Although the bands play exclusively covers, it's still one of the best gigs you can get called to play if you're a gigging musician in the tri-state area. You can see Amadou and Kim in this video, who are the main performers when the band gets called to do weddings.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 6, 2016 9:00:20 GMT -6
Dang, girl can sing !
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Post by ionian on Jul 7, 2016 19:54:28 GMT -6
You can see Amadou and Kim in this video, who are the main performers when the band gets called to do weddings. I know Kim well! I've worked with her a lot in the past. Here's a video for an awards show at the Beacon theater that I used to music direct. I also did the arrangements and played keyboards as well. Kim is on vocals. Regards, Frank
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