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Post by keymod on May 2, 2016 3:48:33 GMT -6
I need to remove one of the panes of glass which separate my control room from the live room so I can clean the insides of the two panes. Over time, when the place was abandoned and incredibly damp from the flooded basement, the seals on the glass must have weakened and allowed moisture, dust, etc. to enter the space between. I am having a Glazier come and inspect the situation this week with the hope that they can do this for me at a reasonable cost. The panes are very large ( 10' x 3' ) and this is something I don't want to attempt myself. My question is, when they are ready to re-install the glass, is there a special caulk they should use? Or, is a standard silicone waterproof-type caulk acceptable? I am not sure if the glass guys will know the answer to this. The glass is currently held in place with wooden cleats that are screwed into the surrounding frame, with a bed of caulk all around.
Thanks
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 4:47:08 GMT -6
Typically for the detail you described you would use a fire rated mastic.
If however the glass is structural glazed then you need to use a glazing tape to seat the glass and then use fire rated mastic around the perimeter as a sealant.
In the glass cavity put son absorbent pads.
If you can dehumidify the air prior to installing the glass the outcome will be much better. Ie, don't install on a humid day.
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 4:50:56 GMT -6
Should add. The mastic needs to be continuous. Ie. No gaps.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 2, 2016 5:47:18 GMT -6
Run a dehumidifier constantly when NOT in use, or, Consider sealing the space between the 2 pieces of glass with a high grade sealant designed for dual glazing and gassing Windows, I've used 100% silicone as well, and then shoot argon in between the panes by creating a small hole at bottom corner of one side, and a relief at top opposite corner, flood the space from a small tube inserted in the bottom, and the argon's greater weight will displace the oxygen slowly out of the top hole, once filled you plug/seal top hole, pull hose plug bottom hole, as long as it stays sealed, no moisture or dust probs. Figure out the cubic ft of air space between the glass, and slightly exceed with a cylinder of argon. If u can afford it? Get pro's to do it, if u DIY it's inxpensive, so a fail isn't too heartbreaking haha good luck! Let us know 8)
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Post by svart on May 2, 2016 6:28:43 GMT -6
I'd leave it ventilated between the panes unless you can create a vacuum between the panes.
Think of a drum.. What happens when you plug the vent hole? The resonance of the drum increases greatly because when you hit the batter membrane the gas has no where to go but to push against the other membrane.
If it has a vent hole, then it can push out of the holes rather than against the other membrane.
In your case, the glass is large enough to vibrate with significance. Having a sealed void full of gas will allow that gas to transfer some of that vibration to the inner glass pane.
Venting the gap will lead to lower sympathetic resonance.
In other words, there is "insulation" which rejects heat, and there is "insulation" which rejects sound. They are mutually exclusive, so one doesn't necessarily mean it can do the other.
If I remember correctly there was a huge thread over at Sayer's forum about windows and the consensus was that gas-filled windows make sound transferal worse and that vacuumed windows work best.
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 6:34:18 GMT -6
If he leaves it ventilated or not sealed, it will have no isolation value and may as well not be there.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2016 6:45:45 GMT -6
If he leaves it ventilated or not sealed, it will have no isolation value and may as well not be there. Maybe you mistake my explanation. The glass on both sides is sealed to the framing, but the air in between is vented to a sound proof area around the gap. There is no air leaking between the rooms. You are just giving the space between the glass a buffer so that it does not act like a spring to the next glass pane. Look up MSM resonance. Mass-spring-mass. It's the concept of the dual leaf window system. The concept is that you have mass (the window), a spring (the air sealed in the middle) and more mass (the other window). If you put a pressure spring between the windows which do not have enough mass to resist the frequency of vibration, then the spring (the air sealed between) will transfer that vibration to the next mass (the other glass).
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 6:57:54 GMT -6
yep I understand the concepts,
I doubt there is a soundproof area around the gap, there will be a timber frame most likely. these things need to be kept simple or the entire system falls down.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2016 7:29:17 GMT -6
yep I understand the concepts, I doubt there is a soundproof area around the gap, there will be a timber frame most likely. these things need to be kept simple or the entire system falls down. Here's an illustration of the typical window, with the gap in the framing between the studs, which serves as the ventilation between the glass panes:
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Post by tonycamphd on May 2, 2016 7:38:47 GMT -6
yep I understand the concepts, I doubt there is a soundproof area around the gap, there will be a timber frame most likely. these things need to be kept simple or the entire system falls down. Here's an illustration of the typical window, with the gap in the framing between the studs, which serves as the ventilation between the glass panes: what you say makes sense, BUT, if he has a moisture problem? argon is the way, it's much heavier than oxygen and if the glass on the higher spl side is proper, it's probably at least 1/2" thick, and the combo with gas will work well, and most importantly, keep the windows from fogging on the insides. I would personally do it as illustrated above, and run a dehumidifier every moment i wasn't in the rooms
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Post by svart on May 2, 2016 7:45:42 GMT -6
tonycamphd Yeah, the dehumidifier is crucial. I find that sweaty drummers can raise the humidity level in a sealed room by a great amount! I run mine a lot, and I have a larger intake vent for the AC unit so I can ventilate the room quickly as well which keeps it pretty dry for the most part.. But I've been in some home studio environments where an hour with a few sweaty musicians in the room, the walls are dripping.. And for some reason those studios have had issues with corroded connectors.. But between the glass, you still have the gap leading out to the inner walls, which should have lots of dry insulation. If you have fogging, your space has much bigger issues with moisture that need to be sorted out.
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 7:47:49 GMT -6
the detail you have linked is not for ventilation it is there to stop flanking of sound which decreases the isolation. who knows what the wall is in keymods case.
to take it further. if the wall is designed properly then the mass of the glass will be the same as the mass of the partition lining and therefore the "spring" is the same regardless of whether the lining is glass or gyprock. ie. there is no ventilation as it is a sealed system.
I usually use fire mastic in the gap and then line the inside of the window frames with acoustic foam. looks good, retains the separation and stops the dust from getting in.
gyprock is also not impervious. so sealing the gap helps prevent moisture ingress due to humidity.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2016 8:05:03 GMT -6
the detail you have linked is not for ventilation it is there to stop flanking of sound which decreases the isolation. who knows what the wall is in keymods case. to take it further. if the wall is designed properly then the mass of the glass will be the same as the mass of the partition lining and therefore the "spring" is the same regardless of whether the lining is glass or gyprock. ie. there is no ventilation as it is a sealed system. I usually use fire mastic in the gap and then line the inside of the window frames with acoustic foam. looks good, retains the separation and stops the dust from getting in. gyprock is also not impervious. so sealing the gap helps prevent moisture ingress due to humidity. Yes, that's the main reason, but it also works better that way. I'll see if I can find the link to the testing I saw.
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2016 8:13:24 GMT -6
i'd be keen to see the data for sure. I can't see how it would work better. if anything it will let humidity or damp from the slab in to the window cavity where it can be seen.
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Post by keymod on May 3, 2016 3:26:56 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for all of the insights. The glass here is angled, as in example "B" above, however the wide side is to the top. The wall the window is installed in is at least two feet thick, so I would expect there must be some type of empty space dividing the front and back. And there is some sort of acoustic foam blanket lining the four surfaces on the inside of the glass partition, albeit some sort of old school pad, circa late seventies when the place was built. I have mitigated all of the moisture problems within the house ( I hope ), through various means, and moisture within the studio area is no longer a problem. The forced hot-air furnace tends to dry out the air in the entire structure ( sometimes too much, I think ) and relative humidity within the entire home/studio has hovered in the forty-percent area, sometimes dipping into the thirties, at least over the past three seasons. Summer will have the A/C running at least to keep the humidity in check. Isolation between the studio rooms seems pretty darned good. I have blasted the monitors in the control room and leakage to the live room is minimal. I would not expect total silence, except in a much more expensive installation. The biggest concern I have is that, by dismantling the glass in order to clean between the panes, somehow the isolation will be compromised once re-installed. Interestingly, as a side note, I had always been under the assumption that angled, non-parallel glass - as I have here - is the best method for sound isolation, especially if the panes themselves are different thicknesses.
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Post by gouge on May 3, 2016 5:53:42 GMT -6
fire mastic or acoustic mastic to the full perimeter of the glass pane is the answer. the wall you are describing is a typical double leaf wall for a studio. albeit a deep version.
humidity is a big issue. ideally you want around 50% humidity. from memory that is what fender recommend. 30-40% is too low. 30% is way too low. you will trash your wood instruments. acoustic guitars particularly. I've been on the other end where the humidity was too high and that trashes guitars, breeds mould also.
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Post by keymod on May 4, 2016 3:13:35 GMT -6
Glazier is coming by this evening. I will stress the need for a fire mastic or acoustic mastic. Any particular brand recommendations? I will continue to keep an eye on humidity levels throughout the home. Once I have actually completed setting up the studio and begin using it in earnest I will take steps to balance the humidity with an ultrasonic or steam humidifier built into the HVAC system if levels remain too low. One other need I can foresee is a fresh-air input on the HVAC System, bringing air in from outside, since there are no windows in the studio to the outside world.
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Post by gouge on May 4, 2016 4:59:14 GMT -6
Not sure about local availability but try
Green glue Hb fuller Csr Knauf Sikaflex
They all have fire/acoustic sealant get the ones in the tube applicator.
Will give u more details on hvac when I'm in from of my pc and not on Mobil.
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Post by keymod on May 5, 2016 2:59:49 GMT -6
Well, the guy never showed for the appointment. No call, nothing. Just blew it off and I left work early to be home for it. This is the second glass guy to pull a no-show, bummer. I guess I saved some money for the time being.....................
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Post by tonycamphd on May 5, 2016 7:58:28 GMT -6
More common than not these days....
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Post by gouge on May 6, 2016 20:23:28 GMT -6
subbies are the same in aus.
with hvac you definitely need fresh air or you can make yourself real sick with a lack of oxygen. some systems (commercial grade) bring fresh air from outside. if you have that type of system then great. otherwise you will need a fresh air supply system that is fan driven. to work properly it needs supply and return or the pressure build up in the room slows down the flow.
introducing fresh air will also go a long way to fixing your humidity issues. either running your hvac in fan mode with the cooling part switched off or running standalone fresh air supply system will bring humid air in from outside. in dryer climates this might be all you need. problematic in humid climates though. so as with everything you need to keep measuring the humidity inside the space.
best to find a local installer to have a look at your current system, explain the issues to them and ask for their solution.
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Post by keymod on May 7, 2016 5:42:21 GMT -6
As an electrician, I have helped install many such fresh-air systems. The new building codes here in the US are requiring them as per energy codes. Just a matter of my being able to afford one myself.
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Post by mulmany on May 7, 2016 10:15:36 GMT -6
More common than not these days.... I am subcontracting currently, and had a customer tell me that we have been the best contractors he has ever worked with. We show up when we say and do the work we said we would. I found it odd that contractors have become so lacking! Do people just not want to work? keymod, have you thought about seeing if you can rent the suction cup handles and remove the glass yourself?
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Post by keymod on May 7, 2016 14:59:25 GMT -6
My brother suggested that we try to do it ourselves. However the glass is just too large at 11 feet by 3 feet and I don't want to risk breaking it.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on May 7, 2016 15:39:53 GMT -6
More common than not these days.... I am subcontracting currently, and had a customer tell me that we have been the best contractors he has ever worked with. We show up when we say and do the work we said we would. I found it odd that contractors have become so lacking! Do people just not want to work? keymod, have you thought about seeing if you can rent the suction cup handles and remove the glass yourself? There are good subbies and bad subbies the problem is sorting through the masses trying to find the good! It's also about wanting the work and understanding that people talk! One day I waited 5 hours on a guy to haul the Aprilia to the shop, get a call "the axle on the trailer broke.. Can't do it till..." My take ok so my anybody else's biz isn't worth you renting and getting the job done! People have to understand word of mouth is everything!!!
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