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Post by scumbum on Apr 23, 2016 23:20:21 GMT -6
Heres Bruce Swedien talking about compression :
Let's get this out in the open once and for all. Here is how I feel about compression...
Compression is for KIDS!!!! I think a little discussion is in order....
The compressor or limiter.
Before the introduction of the automatic gain control, or compressor, the only way the music dynamics could be controlled was by "riding" the gain, or volume control. Fortunately for us, the introduction of the compressor was not long after the introduction of electronic recording.
Most compressors are threshold sensitive, which means that signals below a certain volume level are not affected by the device. This threshold level is set by the user. Signals above this threshold level are reduced in gain. This gain reduction level is also set by the user and is expressed as a Ratio. Compression ratio is expressed in DB's. It means that a certain change in input level will result in a certain change in output level. Response time is pretty obvious and I think you probably already know enough of the basics about compressor/limiters to get you through a session.There has from time to time been a trend to use compression on the mix buss of a mix, but to my ear this use of the device will cause a dulling effect of the sonic image. This use of the device will also allow transient peaks to cause attenuation of the whole signal including low-level high-frequency sounds. If the sound sources on your multi-track are properly recorded in the first place they will not need much limiting or compression.
Experiment with all the new signal processors. There is no such thing as wasted time spent messing around with new effects. The main thing is to learn what will work to enhance the sonic image of the music you are involved with.Developing your own musical ideas is what creating a unique "Sonic Personality" is all about. Don't let the technology control you. Try to remember that just because all these new 'toys' are there doesn't mean you have to use them. If they make sense in the music and add to the musical 'sense' of what you are working on then they belong there.
One last little thing about peripheral processors...I always try to think of how a record that I am doing will sound ten years from now. Will a processing device of today make it sound hopelessly dated in the future. I realize that that is hard to judge and I have no crystal ball to listen to. Think of it like this, it would be like doing a recording ten years ago and using one to many wah-wah pedals on the guitar parts. Don't put one to many processors on the music just because the effects are in the control room. By keeping the musical 'sense' of a piece of music uppermost in our minds, the music that we record today will sound just as good years from now as it does to us today.
So...... to sum up......
Good transient response is especially important when recording acoustic instruments. This is one case where it’s extremely important for one to have equipment that is able to capture as much of the initial transient as possible, and all it’s accompanying delicate details.
In the music that I am normally involved in, I have always felt that good transient content is one of the very most important components of the recorded image.
I would even go so far as to say that transient response has at it’s core a direct relationship to the emotional impact of a recording. Particularily in the main genre’s of music that I record.... namely R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings.
The faithful recording and reproduction of sound source transients makes the strong rhythmic elements in R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings much more dramatic.
These are the elements that are so important, such as the ‘Kick’ or bass drum, the ‘Snare’ drum, hand-claps, percussion...etc.
I think that well recorded transients give R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings a feeling of tremendous energy.
To me, the excessive use of compression and limiting diminish the drama of sound source transients in recorded music. Along that same line of thinking,
I should also point out that I have never been(and probably never will be) a big fan of dynamics compression anywhere during the recording process.
To me, when R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings are over-compressed and over-limited, they lack the extemely fundamental qualities of both primitive energy and smooth high-frequencies.
The reason that over-compressed and over-limited recordings lose high end energy, is that much of the sound energy in a recording is concentrated in the lower frequencies.
These low-end signals will negatively influence a wide-band compressor’s operation, causing higher frequencies to be attenuated during peaks in level, making the music sound dull and lifeless.
Personally, I love transients and what they do to dramatize music. Let them live! If a recording is over-compressed, it will always be over-compressed. In other words, it will sound dull and lifeless forever!
Bruce
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 24, 2016 8:21:53 GMT -6
I'm with him... Very, very, rarely, do I use any Compression while tracking. Actually I rarely use EQ either! Move or change a mic, instrument, or whatever. Usually a much better result. And I can EQ or Compress during mix down if required.
Now that being said, I do like a little 1 or 2 db of SSL on the 2 Bus... But then again, that depends on what I'm mixing down to...
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 24, 2016 9:42:55 GMT -6
I'm with him... Very, very, rarely, do I use any Compression while tracking. Actually I rarely use EQ either! Move or change a mic, instrument, or whatever. Usually a much better result. And I can EQ or Compress during mix down if required. Now that being said, I do like a little 1 or 2 db of SSL on the 2 Bus... But then again, that depends on what I'm mixing down to... With the magic of the DAW If I track with comp or EQ I always split the signal and a have a dry track in case I fuck it up. Mixing others tracks taught me always have a dry!
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 24, 2016 11:56:49 GMT -6
I'm with him... Very, very, rarely, do I use any Compression while tracking. Actually I rarely use EQ either! Move or change a mic, instrument, or whatever. Usually a much better result. And I can EQ or Compress during mix down if required. Now that being said, I do like a little 1 or 2 db of SSL on the 2 Bus... But then again, that depends on what I'm mixing down to... curious, when do you like the 1-2db of SSL on the 2? meaning at what point in your mix process. thanx
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 24, 2016 12:59:20 GMT -6
not sure there's a right or wrong answer here. No one likes compression when it is misused (excluding for effect)...but that wasn't the intended use of the unit in the first place. It's not "compression's" fault that someone didn't know how to use it. Lol. I really like to use compression for the sound that it imparts on the signal - and general gain reduction. If there are major transients, or soft parts, I'll often ride the volume instead of relying on the comp.
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Post by Ward on Apr 24, 2016 13:01:27 GMT -6
Whenever I read that Bruce Sweden story I chuckle in a couple of ways... 1. The Compression on 'Billie Jean' is textbook on how to compress pop music for radio and has served as the model for pop ever since. 2. The compressor I bought off him works just great! But I had to replace the tubes that were worn out. LOL
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 24, 2016 13:33:43 GMT -6
Ward, are u saying Mr S is somehow disingenuous in what he wrote in the above quote?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 24, 2016 14:44:10 GMT -6
I'm with him... Very, very, rarely, do I use any Compression while tracking. Actually I rarely use EQ either! Move or change a mic, instrument, or whatever. Usually a much better result. And I can EQ or Compress during mix down if required. Now that being said, I do like a little 1 or 2 db of SSL on the 2 Bus... But then again, that depends on what I'm mixing down to... What the hell are you doing with 48 compressors then!
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Post by Randge on Apr 24, 2016 23:27:32 GMT -6
It was a lot more over-used 8-10 years ago when every snare drum recorded in Nashville sounded like a dull thud and every drum kit took a back seat to 60 guitar tracks and an equal number of vocal tracks. It has improved a lot since 2008. Every snare drum in Nashville still sounds like the player is hitting a soaking wet Kellogg's frosted mini wheats box imo.
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Post by Randge on Apr 24, 2016 23:33:26 GMT -6
Heres Bruce Swedien talking about compression : Let's get this out in the open once and for all. Here is how I feel about compression... Compression is for KIDS!!!! I think a little discussion is in order.... The compressor or limiter. Before the introduction of the automatic gain control, or compressor, the only way the music dynamics could be controlled was by "riding" the gain, or volume control. Fortunately for us, the introduction of the compressor was not long after the introduction of electronic recording. Most compressors are threshold sensitive, which means that signals below a certain volume level are not affected by the device. This threshold level is set by the user. Signals above this threshold level are reduced in gain. This gain reduction level is also set by the user and is expressed as a Ratio. Compression ratio is expressed in DB's. It means that a certain change in input level will result in a certain change in output level. Response time is pretty obvious and I think you probably already know enough of the basics about compressor/limiters to get you through a session.There has from time to time been a trend to use compression on the mix buss of a mix, but to my ear this use of the device will cause a dulling effect of the sonic image. This use of the device will also allow transient peaks to cause attenuation of the whole signal including low-level high-frequency sounds. If the sound sources on your multi-track are properly recorded in the first place they will not need much limiting or compression. Experiment with all the new signal processors. There is no such thing as wasted time spent messing around with new effects. The main thing is to learn what will work to enhance the sonic image of the music you are involved with.Developing your own musical ideas is what creating a unique "Sonic Personality" is all about. Don't let the technology control you. Try to remember that just because all these new 'toys' are there doesn't mean you have to use them. If they make sense in the music and add to the musical 'sense' of what you are working on then they belong there. One last little thing about peripheral processors...I always try to think of how a record that I am doing will sound ten years from now. Will a processing device of today make it sound hopelessly dated in the future. I realize that that is hard to judge and I have no crystal ball to listen to. Think of it like this, it would be like doing a recording ten years ago and using one to many wah-wah pedals on the guitar parts. Don't put one to many processors on the music just because the effects are in the control room. By keeping the musical 'sense' of a piece of music uppermost in our minds, the music that we record today will sound just as good years from now as it does to us today. So...... to sum up...... Good transient response is especially important when recording acoustic instruments. This is one case where it’s extremely important for one to have equipment that is able to capture as much of the initial transient as possible, and all it’s accompanying delicate details. In the music that I am normally involved in, I have always felt that good transient content is one of the very most important components of the recorded image. I would even go so far as to say that transient response has at it’s core a direct relationship to the emotional impact of a recording. Particularily in the main genre’s of music that I record.... namely R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings. The faithful recording and reproduction of sound source transients makes the strong rhythmic elements in R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings much more dramatic. These are the elements that are so important, such as the ‘Kick’ or bass drum, the ‘Snare’ drum, hand-claps, percussion...etc. I think that well recorded transients give R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings a feeling of tremendous energy. To me, the excessive use of compression and limiting diminish the drama of sound source transients in recorded music. Along that same line of thinking, I should also point out that I have never been(and probably never will be) a big fan of dynamics compression anywhere during the recording process. To me, when R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings are over-compressed and over-limited, they lack the extemely fundamental qualities of both primitive energy and smooth high-frequencies. The reason that over-compressed and over-limited recordings lose high end energy, is that much of the sound energy in a recording is concentrated in the lower frequencies. These low-end signals will negatively influence a wide-band compressor’s operation, causing higher frequencies to be attenuated during peaks in level, making the music sound dull and lifeless. Personally, I love transients and what they do to dramatize music. Let them live! If a recording is over-compressed, it will always be over-compressed. In other words, it will sound dull and lifeless forever! Bruce I'm with Bruce!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 23:46:03 GMT -6
I just did a mix today where not a single DB of compression was used on the drums and it sounded great. If you have a great player it can be done.
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Post by Randge on Apr 25, 2016 1:27:52 GMT -6
I am gonna track Sam bush here tomorrow playing both mandolin and fiddle as well as singing some vocals and probably won't put any compressors on him at all at tracking anyways.
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Post by unit7 on Apr 25, 2016 3:18:04 GMT -6
Heres Bruce Swedien talking about compression : Compression is for KIDS!!!! I'm a kid! And I loves it!!
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Post by Ward on Apr 25, 2016 6:07:51 GMT -6
Heres Bruce Swedien talking about compression : Compression is for KIDS!!!! I'm a kid! And I loves it!! ? "I can hear it all when I compress, and I loves it."
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Post by Randge on Apr 25, 2016 10:55:56 GMT -6
Transient lives matter.
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Post by noah shain on Apr 25, 2016 11:59:06 GMT -6
Thought this was an appropriate thread to post a mix note I just received via text:
"i have some notes for the new mix, i like it, instead of turning up the high end, what about compressing and turn up the whole track? to bring the presence back and to match the basic EDM level that other tracks are at right now. is this better suited for a guy who masters things? apologies if im overdemanding ive not actually been through this process before"
There it is...
Welcome to the service industry.
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Post by donr on Apr 25, 2016 12:27:52 GMT -6
not sure there's a right or wrong answer here. No one likes compression when it is misused (excluding for effect)...but that wasn't the intended use of the unit in the first place. It's not "compression's" fault that someone didn't know how to use it. Lol. I really like to use compression for the sound that it imparts on the signal - and general gain reduction. If there are major transients, or soft parts, I'll often ride the volume instead of relying on the comp. Agreed. I really like the throbbing, punching socko sound of all the instruments in a pop mix grooving together in an electronically created DR envelope that you can feel as well as hear. That kind of euphoric groove you would hear now and then but when Bob Clearmountain and others refined the mix process, you came to expect it on hit recordings. Take a song like The Champs' "Tequila" in 1958. It's really well recorded, has plenty of breathing room, has dynamics and mixes acoustic and electric intruments with equal impact. But you can listen to that on the radio, with radio's addtional broadcast compression and leveling, and it sounds even better to my ear with the DR envelope tightened.
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Post by geoff738 on Apr 25, 2016 12:53:37 GMT -6
Thought this was an appropriate thread to post a mix note I just received via text: "i have some notes for the new mix, i like it, instead of turning up the high end, what about compressing and turn up the whole track? to bring the presence back and to match the basic EDM level that other tracks are at right now. is this better suited for a guy who masters things? apologies if im overdemanding ive not actually been through this process before" There it is... Welcome to the service industry. Oh my! Yeah, tell him the mastering guy can destroy it if that's what they want. Cheers, Geoff
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 25, 2016 13:00:28 GMT -6
not sure there's a right or wrong answer here. No one likes compression when it is misused (excluding for effect)...but that wasn't the intended use of the unit in the first place. It's not "compression's" fault that someone didn't know how to use it. Lol. I really like to use compression for the sound that it imparts on the signal - and general gain reduction. If there are major transients, or soft parts, I'll often ride the volume instead of relying on the comp. Agreed. I really like the throbbing, punching socko sound of all the instruments in a pop mix grooving together in an electronically created DR envelope that you can feel as well as hear.That kind of euphoric groove you would hear now and then but when Bob Clearmountain and others refined the mix process, you came to expect it on hit recordings. Take a song like The Champs' "Tequila" in 1958. It's really well recorded, has plenty of breathing room, has dynamics and mixes acoustic and electric intruments with equal impact. But you can listen to that on the radio, with radio's addtional broadcast compression and leveling, and it sounds even better to my ear with the DR envelope tightened. that's what i'm talkin bout!! applies to about any music as you're attempting the near impossible act of presenting an entire band from 2 little speakers, very few mixers can pull it off.
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Post by jimwilliams on Apr 25, 2016 14:48:49 GMT -6
Careful limiting is usually a better choice for me. If you must squash, a slow attack can leave some transient crumbs left over, as long as the release time doesn't get them too.
Heavy compression doesn't sound natural. If you heard that much at a live show you would think something's wrong.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 25, 2016 14:53:57 GMT -6
Heavy limiting on a mix sounds even worse with very sensitive speakers, in my experience. Even more abrasive.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 25, 2016 17:20:23 GMT -6
A compressor that often confuses the hell out people is the Aphex Compellor. We have a 320A across our mix buss and for the $$ it is hard to beat.
IMO it's one of the few analog compressors that can glue a mix together without destroying the transients or making the mix sound squished.
It's one of the most transparent compressors on the planet which is why some seem to give it a bad rap.
ie. It has very little 'tone'.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 25, 2016 17:39:52 GMT -6
Tony, I unlike the majority of engineers, like to mix without the SSL 384 in circuit. Only when I'm close to printing, I enable the unit. And at that point, I slowly dial it in to where it's just moving the Meter, and adjust to the point where I like what it's doing sonically to the mix. Sometimes, I'll have to try a few different units to find the one that suits the music best, and sometimes, none of them work?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 25, 2016 17:47:29 GMT -6
Jcoutu1, "What the hell are you doing with 48 compressors then?"
I have a secret method of recording hi hats, and I'll share it with you all now. I like to plug them (all 48 compressors) in series on the hi hat track! Really adds some punch, & squish to the tracks!
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Post by ragan on Apr 25, 2016 20:55:59 GMT -6
A compressor that often confuses the hell out people is the Aphex Compellor. We have a 320A across our mix buss and for the $$ it is hard to beat. IMO it's one of the few analog compressors that can glue a mix together without destroying the transients or making the mix sound squished. It's one of the most transparent compressors on the planet which is why some seem to give it a bad rap. ie. It has very little 'tone'. I had one of those. I wish I still had it. Amazingly transparent. Uncanny really.
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