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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 19:29:37 GMT -6
I don't drink, and you still don't have a phone with internet lol
My comments about the 002 were relating to the PT 8 driver, and how it didn't support core audio. When the core audio driver came out, it was pretty awful, and didn't like multiple apps talking to it.
Anthony, if you're using iTunes for PC, i can understand that. But iTunes for Mac is built on core audio, specifically the CA QTtoolkit for streaming audio data that comes in compressed forms. It's a pretty solid toolkit. You can read more about it in "learning core audio", a solid book which is about how to program Audio Units and command-line utilities that deal with audio in OS X and iOS :-)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 19:34:06 GMT -6
My protools is as solid as a rock, here's a gem for you, from the guy who designed the symphony! This just maybe the stupidest line ever stated in the history of pro audio, and had to make the big wigs at apogee shutter? You be the judge. see the 7th line down about analog tape and drums lol! tapeop.com/interviews/btg/51/lucas-van-der-mee/again, head to head my BLA 002 beat the apogee handily IMO are you still listening through those Mackie monitors, tho? those would make you love a MOTU over HD192s lol
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 19:35:10 GMT -6
oh, and boo to that article not being fully readable!!!
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 1, 2013 20:45:35 GMT -6
If I owned a Symphony and I had the cash to spend I would probably do the BLA mod. I have sent a number of things to BLA and each time they come back sounding much better. My BLA modded 002 sounds so good its hard to find a replacement for it. Trust me I want to/NEED TO! I need much more DA then it offers.
Anyway, its silly to think that something can't be upgraded or improved on. Specially with designs by these larger companies who have to build to a price point and profit margin (nothing wrong with this biz model). Also, if the Symphony is perfect as is, then what possibly can the Apogee release next time around. Tech can be improved and smaller companies like BLA can move faster and really do help the overall progression of the tech. If someone has the cash and wants to do the mod I say good for them.
I would LOVE to hear a before and after sample to hear if its as big of an upgrade as the 002 was or if it is something more subtle.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 20:50:48 GMT -6
"Why don't you guys just design your own interface from scratch, complete with audio drivers and zero-latency mixer like what Motu, Apogee, RME, and UA Apollo have done? It's time to stop piggybacking on other people's designs and release your own"
hahaha love it.
I like BLAs idea I don't like the stuff they do generally. I don't think there's much improving to be done on some of the pieces they decide to mod and it perpetuates bullshit.
There are people asking for mods on their Lavry's. Seriously?
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 1, 2013 21:03:28 GMT -6
Yeah, each design would dictate how much better or if any better each mod could be. The 002 is the biggest difference and clearly great sounding. I think some thing like a motu interface you would get less of a benefit from a BLA mod. Modding a Lavry probably wont improve at all. I do think that replacing the surface mount caps on a symphony with some hi quality caps would probably make a large sonic difference. The replacement caps will probably spec the same but the ears would tell a different story. Designing an interface would be difficult, much easier to mod something worth modding or buy something that doesn't need modding.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 1, 2013 21:04:05 GMT -6
oh, and boo to that article not being fully readable!!! 1. dude, seriously, i'm getting an iphone next week, and retiring the phliphone , i agree the PT drivers are unfriendly to outside programs, it was a bad decision on their part, but i'm so used to the software, i won't change unless i really have to. 2. laugh if you want, but i know my mackies almost as good as I know your s ister! 3. wtf, you don't drink? What about eating....? I heard there is a good chinese restaurant REALLY close to you? 4. tape op article? I figured no one would want to read beyond the part where he said "I didn't like the sound of drums on analog tape" he shoots, he scores!
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 1, 2013 21:06:52 GMT -6
2. laugh if you want, but i know my mackies almost as good as I know your s ister! 4. tape op article? I figured no one would want to read beyond the part where he said "I didn't like the sound of drums on analog tape" 2. UNREAL... 4. UNREAL...
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 1, 2013 21:13:06 GMT -6
Designing an interface would be difficult, much easier to mod something worth modding or buy something that doesn't need modding. I'm of no authority to say for sure, and i have no proof of life, but i believe a BLA interface is a blip on the horizon at this point?? I still wonder why guys who've never used this stuff throw around words like BS? What is that? Even that Lucas guy, who designed the symphony, said "u used bigger caps", when i saw no picture that revealed any cap values at all, and anyone who knows their arse from their elbow in electronics, is well aware that same value caps come in a variety of different sizes and materials that make quantifiable differences in sound qualities but haters be hating
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 21:46:52 GMT -6
Designing an interface would be difficult, much easier to mod something worth modding or buy something that doesn't need modding. Well, according to those guys, there's nothing that doesn't *need* modding. But wasn't there a thread a while ago by John Kenn himself about modding the CV4's caps, even after he'd gotten the capsule mod done? And a bunch of people chimed in saying something abuot how just because you can mod it, doesn't mean the mod will improve it. In the pics of the Symphony mod, they're swapping the caps on the cards. and it looked like they were doing it on the 16x16 card. That sure looks like a pain in the ass, tho. they're using thru-hole components so they gotta drill the PCB to mount them, right? yikes, no thanks. there are a LOT of components and chips on the underside of the PCB on those cards. it's basically as populated as the topside. I just kinda feel like mods like this are kinda pointless, if you think about it from a financial point of view. you spent $1500 originally for your interface, and then you sunk another $1000+ into the mod. You could've just bought the top unit they made for that price, and sounded better immediately, instead of having to wait for the turn-around time for the mod, and also the time it took you to figure out your unit didn't sound so good. That's why i saved up for the symphony after having a Motu Traveler for like 4+ years. I didn't want to take baby steps from the motu to the symphony, by purchasing an RME or some other intermediate unit. It's just easier to ball out and drop the cash once and for all right from the get-go! there's somethin' to be said for piece of mind. Lastly, i'm surprised these guys haven't cracked open a burl and straight cloned the analog side of things, since (from what i've read on here) the burl's digital side is basically the same as that PCM4222 box for like $300... All gear designers are gonna have different ideas about what sounds amazing and what is *technically* correct.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2013 21:49:55 GMT -6
JordanVoth, that was my comment on their page :-P
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 1, 2013 22:03:43 GMT -6
Yo sir chuck, didn't you get your cv4 modded? did it sound better? I know, you know there are smd capacitors all day long, everywhere, doubt they used through hole. Consider, If apogee sells 100,000 units, and saves $5 in capacitors and____, on each unit, that equals a half million dollars, most if not all companies will do this to reach there price point, if this wasn't true, and there was no room for improvement, apogee would have ceased product development with the rosetta. Where did you hear they were drilling into the pcb's on the symphony anyway?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2013 8:07:29 GMT -6
Look - if you are willing to pay the $800 or so dollars they want to upgrade the Symphony, then good on you. I happen to think it wouldn't be worth any difference it made. But we live in a capitalist society and I'm all for a brother making a buck - so, more power to them. If I were them, I would probably focus on mods that left NO ROOM for questioning the improvements the mod made. That way it would bring on this inevitable nerd bickering.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 9:43:58 GMT -6
JordanVoth, that was my comment on their page :-P Loved it haha. When I bought my Alphalink I swore it was deeper, wider etc. but I'd probably have a difficult time picking it out verses my old Presonus, Mackie and Focusrite stuff. At least if I come to my senses about a purchase and realize it makes a difference too small (or none at all) to justify the exorbitant price tag I can return it. How do you return a BLA mod? You're stuck with the fact that you spent a bunch of money on something that didn't make a real difference and there's no way you can get your money back. People then go into justification mode, they may even use scientific spec sheets to justify it because that's how people are but most people can't hear specs. I've never used a BLA modded piece of gear, I'm sure that to an entry level piece of equipment there are some changes that can maybe make them a bit more transparent less noisy. I've been recording for eight years (I'm only 24) and I've almost exclusively used a DAW and I've never ran into a piece of gear that was BAD. Even Apex and Behringer stuff is very usable and I think when the gear gets out of the way the music happens.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2013 10:19:43 GMT -6
Yeah, usually, you never get your money back out of a mod.
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 2, 2013 10:24:18 GMT -6
There is plenty of bad gear! Heck, maybe it's in your monitoring chain if you haven't ran into anything bad or you are extremely lucky.
To me it feels like the same guys that complain about BLA are the same guys who have C12's with Stephen Paul mods. Ironic
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 2, 2013 10:26:26 GMT -6
JordanVoth, that was my comment on their page :-P I've never used a BLA modded piece of gear, this is where your comment should have ended lol
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 2, 2013 10:31:03 GMT -6
Yeah, usually, you never get your money back out of a mod. This is true in most cases. You get your money out of mods by using it! However in this case, I think I can get the price of my mod for my 002. Had I not modded the 002 it would just be put in the trash. So I will get something back from this mod. If it was a BLA modded motu, I would probably get nothing. It really depends on the piece. I know if I was in the market for a C12 I would payless for a Stephen Paul modded version then a stock one, I don't like them. If I was in the market for a Soundcraft Delta I would pay a lot more for one modded by Jim Williams. Depends on each piece, but most of the value is in using the gear.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 2, 2013 10:31:22 GMT -6
Yeah, usually, you never get your money back out of a mod. I had 30 watchers in 2 days for my BLA 002?? One things for sure, i didn't get my money back, because the "high end" interfaces that I demo'd failed to be as good as my BLA 002, so i had to pull the auction till something measures up.
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 2, 2013 10:34:52 GMT -6
How many of you guys have heard the blind mix files of the same song going through Symphony and Orion? Could you hear a difference between those mixes? Which did you prefer. I know it's not scientific but it doesn't need to be.
I think Tony has them somewhere. Maybe we can get you guys to comment on those. It would help me understand what you prefer.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2013 11:44:07 GMT -6
I'm happy with my Symphony.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 2, 2013 14:48:04 GMT -6
There are people asking for mods on their Lavry's. Seriously? I'm pretty sure that Lavry request was tongue in cheek, Jordan. Kinna like me asking for the Burl mod
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 1:29:19 GMT -6
How many of you guys have heard the blind mix files of the same song going through Symphony and Orion? Could you hear a difference between those mixes? Which did you prefer. I know it's not scientific but it doesn't need to be. I think Tony has them somewhere. Maybe we can get you guys to comment on those. It would help me understand what you prefer. That is entirely dependent on what you're listening through. If you're listening through a worse piece of gear than the Symphony/Orion, you probably won't hear the difference in an accurate way. Ideally, you'd use a converter that is *better* than whatever you're testing, so your tests are accurately represented. I mean, think about it. What if you're listening to these audio files thru headphones plugged into the headphone port on your laptop? I highly doubt the analog section of that headphone amp will accurately replicate the waveform captured in the audio files, compared to a Lavry or some other high-end converter. you can still do the null test and see what the results are by loading the files into a DAW, lining them up, and flipping the phase on one of them, listening to the results, and also looking at the results via a spectrum analyzer. That's just simple math, and doesn't require the use of ears lol Re: drilling the PCBs, you can see in the pics that BLA posted on their facebook page of the symphony card mod that they're using very tall thru-hole capacitors in place of some of the surface mount ones. Probably the same big blue caps brand jeff throws in with his VP28 kits. Unless they're soldering them directly to the SMD pads (which would render them easily bendable/breakable), I don't see how they'd mount them to the PCB easily or efficiently without drilling thru-holes. The symphony cards have a lot of vias on them, and I am pretty sure it's a multi-layer PCB. no way to confirm, tho. I'm curious what they're doing to mount those larger caps to the board...
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 9:57:42 GMT -6
Just use what you trust...
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 3, 2013 11:00:58 GMT -6
How many of you guys have heard the blind mix files of the same song going through Symphony and Orion? Could you hear a difference between those mixes? Which did you prefer. I know it's not scientific but it doesn't need to be. I think Tony has them somewhere. Maybe we can get you guys to comment on those. It would help me understand what you prefer. That is entirely dependent on what you're listening through. If you're listening through a worse piece of gear than the Symphony/Orion, you probably won't hear the difference in an accurate way. Ideally, you'd use a converter that is *better* than whatever you're testing, so your tests are accurately represented. I mean, think about it. What if you're listening to these audio files thru headphones plugged into the headphone port on your laptop? I highly doubt the analog section of that headphone amp will accurately replicate the waveform captured in the audio files, compared to a Lavry or some other high-end converter. you can still do the null test and see what the results are by loading the files into a DAW, lining them up, and flipping the phase on one of them, listening to the results, and also looking at the results via a spectrum analyzer. That's just simple math, and doesn't require the use of ears lol Re: drilling the PCBs, you can see in the pics that BLA posted on their facebook page of the symphony card mod that they're using very tall thru-hole capacitors in place of some of the surface mount ones. Probably the same big blue caps brand jeff throws in with his VP28 kits. Unless they're soldering them directly to the SMD pads (which would render them easily bendable/breakable), I don't see how they'd mount them to the PCB easily or efficiently without drilling thru-holes. The symphony cards have a lot of vias on them, and I am pretty sure it's a multi-layer PCB. no way to confirm, tho. I'm curious what they're doing to mount those larger caps to the board... Yo....chuck, howd your long gig day on 4 hours sleep go? you gotta read earlier posts mang, i shot out a symphony vs a BLA 002, all things were identical other than interfaces, IMO, it's about knowing your room and monitors more than anything when testing gear. Dan's got a great rig/ears to listen through, he's money! I've never picked up a piece i didn't like that Dan suggested, i think he uses proAc's, and of course i use the venerable Mackie hr824...HDX's! try to contain your envy broman! As far as drilling the pcb?, almost every cap(discrete component) made in through hole, is also made in smd/snap in, i'd bet $'s to dimes they did NOT drill through/or 90 degree flat mount on those boards, even though it is still a viable way of doing things, especially on an older pcb with larger engineering changes(jim williams SC mods, have some scraped pcb ground plane contacts, but still no drilling, his mods are markedly complex, and stunningly apparent audibly, no matter what you're listen through, our stock to mod blind shootout was a laugher on that one). But ultimately, speculating to what they did, or how much and if it will improve the sound, is futile until someone gets a modded rig in hand. All i've been speaking to from the beginning, is the experience i have with BLA, they've shown me remarkable improvements, and blatant high quality results(modded 002, white sparrow DAC) John Kennedy said, "use what u trust", I agree with that, in the end i always say to myself, it's not about the sound, it's about how the sound makes me feel. That said, i'm also a hi fi junkie, and the higher my FI gets, the easier achieving good results seem to be...now where's my drill?
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