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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 30, 2013 21:51:31 GMT -6
Maakes sense cowboy. I spoke too soon, I often track vocals with a little LA2, and add more if I need it later. I do put some compression in the mix too, a little Fatso or 1176 here and there, but not much. I just don't track guitars with compression. Who knows, maybe that why my bass sound sucks, and it hasn't been my lousy playing all along ;-) I like VBC in the 2 bus though..
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 30, 2013 22:26:38 GMT -6
there's a tangible push back that comes from analog gear, that doesn't exist in the digital realm, that's the primary reason why i think it's so much better, you get feel and informative feedback to learn from, it makes more sense? I mean if you use a virtual hammer to drive a virtual nail in a computer game, you don't know what it feels like to drive a real nail with a real hammer. You pickin up what i'm puttin down?
It's about voltage, instead of 0's and 1's
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2013 22:46:23 GMT -6
there's a tangible push back that comes from analog gear, that doesn't exist in the digital realm, that's the primary reason why i think it's so much better, you get feel and informative feedback to learn from, it makes more sense? I mean if you use a virtual hammer to drive a virtual nail in a computer game, you don't know what it feels like to drive a real nail with a real hammer. You pickin up what i'm puttin down? It's about voltage, instead of 0's and 1's I buy that...There is a difference in singing into a Sta-Level and singing into a plugin. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but it's there. But I guess we're getting waaaay off topic. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 31, 2013 0:19:03 GMT -6
^ no doubt, sorry8D, the funny thing is, Bob hasn't chimed in once, and its his Q thread lol!
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Post by levon on Oct 31, 2013 1:24:28 GMT -6
I don't disagree at all...but sometimes I wonder whether the rounding of transients, the punch of tape, etc. allowed the music to be more "musical"...totally just a thought. Tape recorded music is more alive. I've proven it to myself time and time again when in a tape studio. Give you an example. I'm at a buddies studio up north. We are listening to tracks he'd been working on. His studio is good. His gear is good. His methods are good and so the tracks are good. Then he fires up the old 1/4 inch and plays a buss mix he recorded on his 2 inch machine years ago (which now sits in storage covered up) and my Gawd the sound that filled that control room. Same speakers. Same console and amps and the difference was night and day. His gear as a whole now is probably better than it was then but the medium made a huge difference. All that said, there aren't too many musicians these days that could play to tape, honestly. Me being one of them. Why? We don't practice like musicians used to. We don't feel we have to because, hell, "we can just punch that in" right? Music was REAL in the days of tape and so where musicians. No midi, nothing fake. You want a synth??? Here let me patch you into a channel, now play. You want an organ??? hold on while I mic up the Leslie cabinet. Now play. I wouldn't go back to tape because I can't. Not good enough here. But our music suffers for it I think. Can't agree with all of that. There was a lot of trickery in the old tape days. We punched in like hell, sometimes single notes or single words. It took a good tape op, but it was done. Tape was spliced, edited and manipulated. Autotune? We had harmonizers and pitch control to do that. Don't believe that everything you hear on vinyl was played that way live in the studio, no effing way. Do you think Pink Floyd or YES recorded their albums live in the studio. Hell, no. The Beatles didn't either, except in the beginning. Def Leppard??? So, there's not much difference to what is done today in a DAW. Only, it's a lot easier today and I wish we had those things in the 1980s. Midi? That's not fake, that's a real musician playing a real keyboard. The difference is that instead of recording the sound of the keyboard, something else is triggered, but it's still a human being playing. You may not like the sound of a virtual synth or Hammond, that's okay, but that does not make it a fake. The big plus of the tape days was that people were more aware of proper gain staging and analog tape distortion was pleasing as opposed to digital distortion. Music suffers first and foremost because of mediocre songwriting, lack of imagination and fourth-rate 'musicians', not because of the tools we use to record it. Let's not forget the greed for money. A lot of people would not be in the music business (and spare us a lot of the crap that we have to listen to) if they could make more money by selling toilet paper. And that has always been the case, even in the last century when they still recorded to tape. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 6:26:18 GMT -6
Great post, Levon!
Thanks.
In the old days, musicians earned alot of their skills by playing live. Alot. Songs were tested by playing them in front of audience and re-written or dropped, if they did not work, improvisations from live playing were taken over if they worked good. Not only performance, practising, also the way how songs were written was heavily influenced by the experience of playing live.
Nobody went from his bedroom or rehearsal room right into the studio then.
Nowadays, for many musicians and bands it is easier to produce a small demo than to find occasions for playing live alot. IMO the skills for good and original songwriting suffer alot from this ongoing trend since around the mid-eighties/early nineties.
Best regards,
Martin
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 31, 2013 7:12:19 GMT -6
Nashville is one of the only places left with people playing live - running the take down from beginning to end. And those musicians are just awesome. It's ashamed they have to play Country music because it's in such a small box. Of course, I guess you could say alot of the Wrecking Crew/Swampers, etc stuff was in a box too...But the difference in material with Pet Sounds/Wall of Sound compared to Rodney Atkins/Honkeytonk Badonkadonk is dramatic...  |
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Post by henge on Oct 31, 2013 7:34:17 GMT -6
Tape recorded music is more alive. I've proven it to myself time and time again when in a tape studio. Give you an example. I'm at a buddies studio up north. We are listening to tracks he'd been working on. His studio is good. His gear is good. His methods are good and so the tracks are good. Then he fires up the old 1/4 inch and plays a buss mix he recorded on his 2 inch machine years ago (which now sits in storage covered up) and my Gawd the sound that filled that control room. Same speakers. Same console and amps and the difference was night and day. His gear as a whole now is probably better than it was then but the medium made a huge difference. All that said, there aren't too many musicians these days that could play to tape, honestly. Me being one of them. Why? We don't practice like musicians used to. We don't feel we have to because, hell, "we can just punch that in" right? Music was REAL in the days of tape and so where musicians. No midi, nothing fake. You want a synth??? Here let me patch you into a channel, now play. You want an organ??? hold on while I mic up the Leslie cabinet. Now play. I wouldn't go back to tape because I can't. Not good enough here. But our music suffers for it I think. Can't agree with all of that. There was a lot of trickery in the old tape days. We punched in like hell, sometimes single notes or single words. It took a good tape op, but it was done. Tape was spliced, edited and manipulated. Autotune? We had harmonizers and pitch control to do that. Don't believe that everything you hear on vinyl was played that way live in the studio, no effing way. Do you think Pink Floyd or YES recorded their albums live in the studio. Hell, no. The Beatles didn't either, except in the beginning. Def Leppard??? So, there's not much difference to what is done today in a DAW. Only, it's a lot easier today and I wish we had those things in the 1980s. Midi? That's not fake, that's a real musician playing a real keyboard. The difference is that instead of recording the sound of the keyboard, something else is triggered, but it's still a human being playing. You may not like the sound of a virtual synth or Hammond, that's okay, but that does not make it a fake. The big plus of the tape days was that people were more aware of proper gain staging and analog tape distortion was pleasing as opposed to digital distortion. Music suffers first and foremost because of mediocre songwriting, lack of imagination and fourth-rate 'musicians', not because of the tools we use to record it. Let's not forget the greed for money. A lot of people would not be in the music business (and spare us a lot of the crap that we have to listen to) if they could make more money by selling toilet paper. And that has always been the case, even in the last century when they still recorded to tape. I gotta agree with Levon on this point. There's been manipulation and editing done for decades. it's nothing new. I remember working with the guy that produced /engineered the second side of Queen 2. Excellent technician. He was splicing us up like there was no tomorrow, and this was a band that could PLAY!! It was 1979, you didn't make an album if you couldn't play, so that wasn't an issue. He was caught up in the fad of the day ( multi 24 track Studers synched together, punch a word and a note here and there, fly in these BVox over there etc. But when he started to cut tape I was amazed at the skill and balls it took!! All I've known is studio manipulation and trickery!!LOL Btw I've always recorded whole takes of verses and choruses or whatever and pieced them together. If I blow a note then that whole take is lost. Kind of like a compromise. |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 31, 2013 11:26:07 GMT -6
Tape recorded music is more alive. I've proven it to myself time and time again when in a tape studio. Give you an example. I'm at a buddies studio up north. We are listening to tracks he'd been working on. His studio is good. His gear is good. His methods are good and so the tracks are good. Then he fires up the old 1/4 inch and plays a buss mix he recorded on his 2 inch machine years ago (which now sits in storage covered up) and my Gawd the sound that filled that control room. Same speakers. Same console and amps and the difference was night and day. His gear as a whole now is probably better than it was then but the medium made a huge difference. All that said, there aren't too many musicians these days that could play to tape, honestly. Me being one of them. Why? We don't practice like musicians used to. We don't feel we have to because, hell, "we can just punch that in" right? Music was REAL in the days of tape and so where musicians. No midi, nothing fake. You want a synth??? Here let me patch you into a channel, now play. You want an organ??? hold on while I mic up the Leslie cabinet. Now play. I wouldn't go back to tape because I can't. Not good enough here. But our music suffers for it I think. Can't agree with all of that. There was a lot of trickery in the old tape days. We punched in like hell, sometimes single notes or single words. It took a good tape op, but it was done. Tape was spliced, edited and manipulated. Autotune? We had harmonizers and pitch control to do that. Don't believe that everything you hear on vinyl was played that way live in the studio, no effing way. Do you think Pink Floyd or YES recorded their albums live in the studio. Hell, no. The Beatles didn't either, except in the beginning. Def Leppard??? So, there's not much difference to what is done today in a DAW. Only, it's a lot easier today and I wish we had those things in the 1980s. Midi? That's not fake, that's a real musician playing a real keyboard. The difference is that instead of recording the sound of the keyboard, something else is triggered, but it's still a human being playing. You may not like the sound of a virtual synth or Hammond, that's okay, but that does not make it a fake. The big plus of the tape days was that people were more aware of proper gain staging and analog tape distortion was pleasing as opposed to digital distortion. Music suffers first and foremost because of mediocre songwriting, lack of imagination and fourth-rate 'musicians', not because of the tools we use to record it. Let's not forget the greed for money. A lot of people would not be in the music business (and spare us a lot of the crap that we have to listen to) if they could make more money by selling toilet paper. And that has always been the case, even in the last century when they still recorded to tape. Yep Levon hit the nail on the head !! Its not the gear . Its like saying "I'm gonna buy a vintage strat and marshall amp , the same as what Jimi Hendrix used , then I'll have his "sound" and my playing will sound just like his......." Says the young teenager learning to play guitar . And everybody knows , theres no freakn' way getting the same gear as Hendrix is gonna make him sound or play like Hendrix . Its the same exact thing with studio gear . If the gear mattered , then all we gotta do is book time a Abbey Road studios , hire the same engineers and thats the secret to making music as good as the Beatles . Using the same tape machine , console , mics and room ......... Thats what gave the Beatles their magic....... Thats pretty silly isn't it ? So what it all comes down to is the "human" in front of the mic , the "artist" , "musician" . Theres something lacking in most musicians today . Theres no magic , spark , creativity , real humanity is lacking . It can only be traced to the lifestyles people live today . Its too fast paced , focused on Money and themselves . Being absorbed in computers , constantly on their iphone , on the internet , texting , facebook , shopping online...........I don't know what it is but the lifestyle of today is sucking the humanity out of people . They are becoming more and more sterile , just like all these electronic computer devices they seem to worship . Nobody has time to sit back and just reflect on what it is to be human . Instead 24/7 they are connected to some type of computer device , on the internet and working non-stop trying to buy the big house on the hill . The music today is just a reflection of the people today . |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 31, 2013 11:33:13 GMT -6
Great post, Levon! Thanks. In the old days, musicians earned alot of their skills by playing live. Alot. Songs were tested by playing them in front of audience and re-written or dropped, if they did not work, improvisations from live playing were taken over if they worked good. Not only performance, practising, also the way how songs were written was heavily influenced by the experience of playing live. Nobody went from his bedroom or rehearsal room right into the studio then. Nowadays, for many musicians and bands it is easier to produce a small demo than to find occasions for playing live alot. IMO the skills for good and original songwriting suffer alot from this ongoing trend since around the mid-eighties/early nineties. Best regards, Martin 100% agreed, I don't do it anymore, but i used to have runs where i played 3 or 4 nights a week back in the day, my chops used to get really good during those times, much better than if i just did stick control exercises. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 31, 2013 16:07:24 GMT -6
Would love to see Bob's responses to all these original and raised questions!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 2, 2013 19:33:42 GMT -6
I think the lack of live performance experience that has been caused by the decline in decent paying live performance opportunities is the elephant in our room. Imagine what pro football would be like with no middle school. high school or college teams. That's what we are looking at in professional music today compared to the past. Where people get really good is eyeball to eyeball with listeners.
We need to relaunch that experience especially for high school kids. I'm working with a few people here in Nashville to try to reboot the music business. Having witnessed Motown, I can't buy that it's really about big labels or radio. We just need to find the kinds of end runs around Madison Avenue that others have taken to engage and create a new generation of music fans. The more lost "the industry" is in the status quo, the greater the opportunity becomes.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 3, 2013 9:10:04 GMT -6
I'm glad someone with influence is taking some action. I'd like to know more about your process, Bob. It needs to start in a music capital for sure but the cause also needs to be taken up nationally as well.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 3, 2013 10:14:37 GMT -6
Beautifully said Bob. I teach music to kids. Those inclined beyond the basics are hungry to play wherever they can, as I used to be. They have to become creative about gaining exposure and finding venues, but I think the boat will right itself. I was a part of the Punk revolution in NYC. It wasn't that some of the showy Glam bands didn't make some very good music, but the industry had reached a tipping point, where it had all become over-corporate and extremely fake. more Vegas than the Delta.. The spirit and reality check Punk provided did shift the music business in a positive way, even though it didn't exactly topple the reigning regime.
I treat the Halloween holiday as a day for remembering those we love who've passed on, similar to the Day of the Dead holiday in Mexico. We had dinner with friends and we each told a story about a loved one and as part of calling forth their memory, we played some of their favorite music. I put on Hank Snow's "I'm Movin' On" in remembrance of my father. I connected to the feeling that it might have been largely due to his love of music and always playing music our house that I too connected to music so deeply. So, even though I'm a NY Rocker, there's a country root deep in my musical DNA. Growing up with Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Patti Page and others, I find those connections in artists whose work I love, like Lucinda Williams, Emmylou Harris, Gillian Welch, Neil Young, Ryan Adams, Lyle Lovett, Buddy Miller, Tom Petty, and others. How on earth these artists are ignored by mainstream commercial Country radio is a scandal. Those with ears to hear are frustrated, but like the pre-punk era, there's a good chance the fake and bloated "Country" product that's being generated now, may become yesterday's news as fast as you can say REO Speedwagon. Crossing my fingers.. ;-)
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 3, 2013 11:04:18 GMT -6
They are ignored because they aggregate a large, very diverse following that Madison Avenue can't easily package and sell to advertisers.
Today's advertisers want very precise demographic profiles that will demonstrate to the stock analysts that their advertising investment matches their product's focus group research. It's all about pleasing stock analysts on paper because today most companies are primarily in the business of selling investment instruments based on their company's perceived value. It hasn't much to do with simply selling their products and yes, it's one huge house of cards.
I learned a few years ago that NY Punk and Hip Hop both began in the same rehearsal halls with many of the same people involved. New music has always come from the streets. It really has been a bottom-up meritocracy. An amazing number of people don't understand this.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 3, 2013 11:10:45 GMT -6
I think the lack of live performance experience that has been caused by the decline in decent paying live performance opportunities is the elephant in our room. Imagine what pro football would be like with no middle school. high school or college teams. That's what we are looking at in professional music today compared to the past. Where people get really good is eyeball to eyeball with listeners. We need to relaunch that experience especially for high school kids. I'm working with a few people here in Nashville to try to reboot the music business. Having witnessed Motown, I can't buy that it's really about big labels or radio. We just need to find the kinds of end runs around Madison Avenue that others have taken to engage and create a new generation of music fans. The more lost "the industry" is in the status quo, the greater the opportunity becomes. If playing "live" is the answer , then how come ALL music is in the crapper ?? Take rap music for example , Everyone says rap music today sucks . They all have nostalgia for the late 80's-90's rap . They all say theres no more good rap music being made . Heres an example , just go read the comments on this video , its pretty much the same things said on all these old rap songs posted to youtube . I'm not a big rap fan , but some of my friends are and they all say the same thing , theres no more good rap music being made . Rap music has nothing to do with getting better playing live eyeball to eyeball . Its across the board with ALL music , All genre's . Everyone is complaining thats there no more good music . Well I shouldn't say everyone . The younger generations that didn't grow up with real music are the ones fueling the crap of today . I do agree though that you get WAY better playing live than at home by yourself . Marty Friedman once said something like playing a live show is the same as playing 8 hours alone in your room , because your forced to be make your playing work , your forced to put your playing to its limit . But being a good musician is not the same as being a good songwriter and making good Music . Most good songwriters are not that great at playing and most guys that shred , top dogs on their instruments , are not great songwriters . Of course theres always excepts . I don't think better musicianship is whats lacking at all today . Its good Music , good songwriting , real artists that have something to say . And nobody has anything to say because they are all so focused on Money and being famous......not famous for being a great artist...just famous for no reason at all , like these reality stars . Songwriting pretty much has nothing to do with playing Live . How do you hone your songwriting skills , up on a stage ?? No , usually its by yourself , or maybe as a team , like Lennon and Mccartney . |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 3, 2013 11:33:28 GMT -6
IMV, there has been a gross drop off in the depth of musicianship over the past 50 years, meaning...in the 50-60's, musicians were studying classical, jazz, and any recoded music they could get there hands on. Then (generally) the musicians of the 70' only looked at the 60's, then the musicians of the 80's(apex of the roller coaster) only looked at the 70's, then the musicians of the 90's only looked at the 80's, and then the musicians of the 2000's only looked at the 90's, and now the musicians of the 2010's only look at the the 2000's(full downward plunge).....I believe this is called devolution, culture and depth of knowledge is lost on 95% of the people who call themselves musicians. I believe this is a huge part of the reason why popular music has gotten to the rather sad state it's in, art has been replaced by the desire to sound exactly like the guy who sold a record before you???
JMO
that being said, there are some mega talents out there still...thank goodness!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 13:25:36 GMT -6
For one thing, the people have no power to determine what they hear anymore. New music isn't added by a DJ and a popular groundswell arises because people like the music. The music that fills the timeslot you hear on the radio has been bought and paid for by the label. It's a business deal. The actual music is an afterthought. The only failures on the charts are ones where the conglomerates see a major trend of listeners switching stations when the song comes on. It is not about the music anymore.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 3, 2013 14:51:55 GMT -6
RAP in fact started out as incredible LIVE performances!
I believe there is as much talent as ever but there is nowhere near the number of really experienced young performers. We obviously have a huge exposure problem but I think that's mostly just a matter of getting over playing records on the radio. It only worked for us back when Madison Avenue wasn't paying any attention to it. The label and radio people I know are just as frustrated as the rest of us about this.
We're back to the living room concerts of the late 1800s until we figure out some way forward that doesn't depend on selling national advertising. Progressive jazz, Motown and the San Francisco rock scene all began in living rooms and I'm sure there are others I just don't know about. We've also got the cheapest communication in history.
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