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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 16, 2016 16:07:23 GMT -6
I agree Doug, Zep are not innocent bystanders, they've copped without crediting before and been sued for it.
In this case though, it bugs me, because a layman would instantly hear the two as the same, but given examples like the classical Granata piece, it clearly is a common template that musicians build around. I just don't see how anyone thinks they can copyright a descending chromatic scale, same vibe or not.
It's similar to the Pachelbel Canon. You just can't copyright the circle of fifths, no matter what you put on top of it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 16, 2016 21:36:42 GMT -6
Nofilterchuck wrote:
"Regarding the chord progression, they both begin with vi-minor, III(first inversion), I(2nd Inversion), II(first inversion)"
In C, that would be: Amin, E/G#, C/G, D/F#
In B, that would be: Abmin, Eb/G, B/F#, Db/F."
So Chuck, just to be sure I understand what you're saying, you are referring to the Classical piece and Stairway riff, correct?
And the two pieces have the same chord progression, (where the classical piece's riff begins around :32 seconds, correct)?
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 16, 2016 21:50:46 GMT -6
i'm just talking about this progression:
and I was incorrect on the 2nd chord. the 2nd chord is CMaj7(#5)/G#, not E/G#.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 16, 2016 22:20:31 GMT -6
Yes, I get that, thanks Chuck.
What I was asking, is did you find the classical piece beginning at :32 to be the same basic chords as this above, (allowing for transposition up 1/2 step), I found that the bass note and top notes were the same when comparing the Zep riff to the classical piece, the inner voicing wasn't as important to me, as the bass notes are descending chromatically, with the top notes ascending at the same intervals.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 16, 2016 22:46:05 GMT -6
post a link to the recording and I'll give it a listen.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 17, 2016 0:26:51 GMT -6
the bass note progression is factually NOT the same, it has nothing to do with a ridiculous attack that I feel the need to be "right", it's just a simple fact, the bass notes in the 4 bar phrase of stairway descend entirely, in the classical tune they do NOT, the end.
Furthermore, the unexacting similarities in the rest of the chord /picking/phrasing/progression structure, in whole, last not even till the end of the 2nd position, and less than 2 bars of the entire 4 bar stairway phrase, it wouldn't be the first time that anyone picked up an acoustic guitar and finger picked a semi descending line, and some random joe says... "hey that sounds like stairway to heaven", so AC guitar+Finger Picking/a semi descending progression of any kind=plagiarism, insert face palm here.
And Martin, just to be clear, i referred to myself as a "dumbass" to chuck in that last post, nextime read a little more carefully, if you find me so intolerable, then stop tagging, quoting, responding directly to, asking questions of, all things me, then ur problems are magically solved.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 17, 2016 0:28:27 GMT -6
post a link to the recording and I'll give it a listen. they're both right here |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 17, 2016 0:53:42 GMT -6
First American Zep tour, they frequently played a medley which contained the Spirit song ‘Fresh Garbage’, which is on the same record as ’Taurus’. The claim they never heard ‘Taurus' doesn’t hold water. You have to look at it in the context of the few years between those two songs 1968-1971, and within the rock idiom. I can't think of another piece so similar, with so much of the same atmosphere and vibe. Atmosphere and vibe both being chief marketing points of popular music at the time. The argument that a suit should have happened years ago if legit is baseless. It was never filed for much the same reasons Jake Holmes took 30+ years to file on Dazed and Confused. It really doesn't matter if Randy is alive or not, his heirs/trust would have the same claim to pursue. It is entirely likely that in Jimmy's heroin haze he really doesn't remember lifting the general concept at this late date. Clearly lifting various works was much more normal at the time, and history has reframed many similar incidents since. Hell, did April Wine get sued for the various quotes in 'I Like to Rock'? I don't know, but it sure doesn't get played on classic rock radio anymore, and you’d never get away with it today. Guitar World commented on the ‘lifting’ in 1997, stating it may be Randy’s most enduring legacy. FWIW.
It’s funny to me that so many feel the need to defend Led Zeppelin. They can surely defend themselves. As great as I think they are, their acknowledging of credit due is among their weakest points. you defend what you love, i see zep as a magic sound, it doesn't matter what they played, where they played, it's them monsters, thats the signature, thats the songs, thats the originality, the actual song is nothing more than an arbitrary vehicle to let them out, i actually feel sorry for people who don't like zep, it's like not liking beauty or some equally sad affair. |
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Post by M57 on Apr 17, 2016 7:33:11 GMT -6
i'm just talking about this progression: and I was incorrect on the 2nd chord. the 2nd chord is CMaj7(#5)/G#, not E/G#. Never thought about it before. But sometimes harmonic function is in the ear of the beholder. Personally I think your first analysis is what I hear. The descending line is what drives the harmonic function. So I hear a first inversion E chord with a little flat 6 crunch. { E(add b6)/G#}. On the other hand, if you consider the descending line as a traditional 'guide-tone' line - I.e, where its function is Tonic -> Leading Tone -> Dom 7 -> 6, then it's not hard at all to hear the second chord as an Amin7(Maj7), with the bass note "implied." Strangely enough, and without a guitar in hand, when I took my first stab at it from memory, I 'heard' an A 'ringing' through the entire progression. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 18, 2016 11:03:20 GMT -6
Absolutely. it's all 1-minor, 1minor over the Maj7, 1min over the b7, etc.. When you isolate them on a note-per-note basis, then you get the CMaj7(#5)/G# or E(add b6)/G# or even Ab aug(#9) if you wanna be really anal lol
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Post by donr on Apr 19, 2016 1:09:29 GMT -6
I am hugely opposed to civil courts and jurys making these judgements on what and what is not musical plagiarism. There has long been common sense in the publishing biz about what is stealing and what is a homage or building on a previous musical idea. These suits are like ambulance chasing or product liability lawsuits. Better to create a tribunal of creative peers to settle beefs like this.
When you borrow from another song, make it different enough that it becomes yours. That's tough with the blues and other derivative chord/melody structures common in pop music, but not impossible.
When I met Sting on their Regatta de Blanc tour, he said he stole "Message In A Bottle" riff from "Don't Fear The Reaper." Since he took the beginning and the cadence of the riff and made it his own by changing it, I was ok with that, I was flattered he'd nicked it, frankly.
The "Taurus" and "Stairway" progressions are similar almost to a fault to be sure, but I'll say this. "Taurus" had absolutely nothing to do with "Stairway" being a hit, however possible it might have had something to do with it being written.
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Post by levon on Apr 19, 2016 6:13:47 GMT -6
Indeed, Don. Even if Page copped the sequence from whomever - obviously Randy California copped it from others before him - Jimmy Page is the only one who created something meaningful and long-lasting with it. Only that counts in my eyes.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 19, 2016 6:58:12 GMT -6
Chicken, egg, chicken, egg..... : )
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2016 8:07:11 GMT -6
6 hours ago donr said:
I am hugely opposed to civil courts and jurys making these judgements on what and what is not musical plagiarism. There has long been common sense in the publishing biz about what is stealing and what is a homage or building on a previous musical idea. These suits are like ambulance chasing or product liability lawsuits. Better to create a tribunal of creative peers to settle beefs like this.
When you borrow from another song, make it different enough that it becomes yours. That's tough with the blues and other derivative chord/melody structures common in pop music, but not impossible.
When I met Sting on their Regatta de Blanc tour, he said he stole "Message In A Bottle" riff from "Don't Fear The Reaper." Since he took the beginning and the cadence of the riff and made it his own by changing it, I was ok with that, I was flattered he'd nicked it, frankly.
The "Taurus" and "Stairway" progressions are similar almost to a fault to be sure, but I'll say this. "Taurus" had absolutely nothing to do with "Stairway" being a hit, however possible it might have had something to do with it being written.
I couldn't agree more Don. Earlier, I said how can you copyright a chromatic scale. It doesn't matter so much what notes go above that descending scale, Zep didn't steal from Sprit, they did something completely different on top of a slowly descending chromatic scale. You can put similar things, different things above the bass notes, it's still a chromatic scale, and we as musicians get this. That said, non musicians hear those two pieces for 30 seconds and their done, it's the same to them. This s why Zep truly need a jury of their peers, if it goes to trial. I would imagine they've got the best representation, so I guess what will be will be. OK, on the same subject, I'm curious what you guys think, and if you'd have done anything about this. I was in a studio where an ex was singing backup on an album. The producer was going to L.A to work with Stevie Nicks, he'd done some Crosby, Sills & Nash records, among other things. I gave him my demo tape. At the time, I was on the verge of a record deal. I got word Stevie Nicks was interested in one of my songs. I foolishly said no to her covering it. I ddn't want to sell what I thought would be a hit on my first solo album. The song was titled "take Me Home". At 4:02 on her song "Stand Back", Nicks sings a coda "take me home", it is exactly my melody, the last "take me home line" is note for note. Would you have sued? I didn't. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 19, 2016 11:58:25 GMT -6
if you still have the demo tape, you should sue now lol you'd be able to move out of that apartment you're in now that's on top of the building laundromat :-P
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2016 12:06:13 GMT -6
Dang Chuck, you got me thinking'.. unfortunately, it's been way too long I believe.
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Post by donr on Apr 19, 2016 22:11:23 GMT -6
With 20/20 hindsight Martin, you should have let Stevie record your song, or let her make something she would record out of your song for a co-write. At least half of America wanted to take Stevie Nicks home in those days, it might have been on a big selling album and your version would have been released as the songwriter's original rendition, with an album of your other tunes for huge artists to cover now that you had cred as a hit song writer.
Creators of words and music should be credited and compensated when that composition earns money by its popularity. But punctuating my earlier point, the reason any music and lyric makes money goes beyond the raw creation. Especially when we are dealing in the narrow range of possibilities in the musical side of the popular recording business. Lyrically as well, phrases, themes are well tread and repeated, for instance lately in what has become pop "Country" music.
Why doesn't someone sue for taking about pickup trucks, tailgates, painted on jeans, "girl", long necks, dirt roads, Friday Nights™ etc. Somebody did it first, amiright?
With all respect to lyricists, it's the melody writers get sued about, ain't it?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2016 22:28:45 GMT -6
My mindset then was so arrogant. I was sure my deal would go though and the logic of selling a song to someone else didn't even occur to me then. I wrote it, why the hell would I want someone else to do it. Would Elvis Costello sell "Allison", would Neil Young have sold "Down By the River", Would Dylan have sold "Times They Are a Changin'?
It was a very bad move indeed, and I've changed tremendously since then. I'm extremely grateful and feel honored if someone sings one of my tunes. Cowboycoalminer's done a few covers of my songs, and I don't think I could do a better job myself.
On a funnier note, a friend of mine did actually get to "take Stevie Nicks home" back then, and he was one very happy guy, I can tell you that much!
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Post by levon on Apr 19, 2016 23:33:26 GMT -6
Dang Chuck, you got me thinking'.. unfortunately, it's been way too long I believe. Let it lie, not worth the hassle. I was ripped off several times in my lifetime and it's just not worth to follow up when you're a nobody without deep pockets. Your story reminds me, many moons ago it looked like Heart were interested in one of the songs I wrote with my partner at the time, I was all for it, but he didn't want to give away the 'sure hit' that he wanted to save for the debut album of his band. I was pretty pissed off. Of course, that debut album went nowhere fast. Today, I believe that we wouldn't have gotten much out if it anyway. Two unknowns from Germany, come on. They would have muscled in on the songwriting, changed lyrics, claimed they changed the melody and it would have been 90% their song. Happened more than once. We still can play and record music, have a warm home and food on the table. What else do you need? (Apart from that U67 and the Neve sidecar and...  ) |
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Post by donr on Apr 20, 2016 23:14:35 GMT -6
I submit there are very few if any remaining unique ideas for 12 tone scale pop music chord progressions or chord/melody structures at this moment in history. Which is wjy copyrights are granted on specific uses of whatever music and lyric. Someone made money by copping your idea? When the artist first tried to deal with you [rightsholder] on your idea and you said no? Such is life.
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Post by Ward on May 3, 2016 8:22:40 GMT -6
I'm not defending Led Zeppelin, but I would like to defend all of us who write.
TTBOMK, there are 384,000 possible melodies than can be made out of the 12 semi-tone devision of the frequency spectrum inside an octave.
There are millions and millions of songs.
Melodies are repeated constantly. By accident, by deign, by intent and by coincidence.
To call this plagiarism is like calling anyone who writes "Once upon a time..." or "I love you" a plagiarist.
Consider...
Clearly, PAUL MCCARTNEY wrote stairway to Heaven in "Michelle, my belle"
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Post by Ward on May 3, 2016 8:23:45 GMT -6
Why doesn't someone sue for taking about pickup trucks, tailgates, painted on jeans, "girl", long necks, dirt roads, Friday Nights™ etc. Somebody did it first, amiright? With all respect to lyricists, it's the melody writers get sued about, ain't it? Dallas Davidson is going to sue all of us, in that case. Linky Linky, clicky clicky. |
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Post by EmRR on May 3, 2016 8:30:45 GMT -6
Are instrumentals less protected? How are they judged differently? We've passed the era where instrumentals were hits on the radio, but they once could rule the airwaves.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2016 9:22:20 GMT -6
I believe instrumentals are judged the same way. There's usually a melody involved. Play "My Funny Valentine" as an instrumental, and it's clear, the melody is the take away. I'm no expert on this, just offering an educated guess.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 3, 2016 12:19:39 GMT -6
I'm not defending Led Zeppelin, but I would like to defend all of us who write. TTBOMK, there are 384,000 possible melodies than can be made out of the 12 semi-tone devision of the frequency spectrum inside an octave. There are millions and millions of songs. Melodies are repeated constantly. By accident, by deign, by intent and by coincidence. To call this plagiarism is like calling anyone who writes "Once upon a time..." or "I love you" a plagiarist. Consider... Clearly, PAUL MCCARTNEY wrote stairway to Heaven in "Michelle, my belle" I'm proud to say that my 'squirrel looking for a nut" song puts me in the paddy waggon with the rest of the criminals in your video  https%3A//soundcloud.com/tonycamp/empathysong2015 |
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