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Post by formatcyes on Apr 12, 2016 14:20:01 GMT -6
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 12, 2016 16:02:38 GMT -6
what guitarist songwriter has not used a descending riff like that at least once ?
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Post by yotonic on Apr 12, 2016 17:43:16 GMT -6
If you have a nickel someone will try to take it.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 12, 2016 18:04:57 GMT -6
Same song by a mile. Zep took this riff from the tune and built a full tune mainly around that riff. 75% of the Zep tune is that riff.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 12, 2016 18:25:35 GMT -6
Yep. I've been listening to both these songs for around 30 years. Never a question to me, Stairway intro is a rip/homage/whatever. They were always known as infamous borrowers of others work. That's not to say they didn't add improvements, but they didn't build the foundations of the castle. Love to know at what financial level they settled with Jake Holmes over Dazed and Confused. Big fan of all the above, regardless.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 12, 2016 19:13:28 GMT -6
Same song by a mile. Zep took this riff from the tune and built a full tune mainly around that riff. 75% of the Zep tune is that riff. this is just ridiculous Jes, you're wrong. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 12, 2016 19:15:26 GMT -6
everyone took tunes that were in the ethos for decades and decades, reworked them, and called them their own, stairway to heaven is absolutely nothing like that taurus turd, seriously you have to be joking.
I'm sure when the levee breaks, and whole lotta love are rips to... smh, they used the lyrics as tributes to their hero's, the whole "what's in it for me crowd" didn't exist back then.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 14, 2016 8:40:02 GMT -6
It does sound like they're the same basic riff, but it's just a descending chromatic scale. To claim copyright is like saying you own the right to use the numbers 6,5,4,3,2,1, in that order. The problem is that a layman might misinterpret this in court. Imagine if someone started suing for a I, IV, V progression, how crazy that would get. Basic structures like this are like templates, musicians put their originality on top of them. Led Zep's song is incredibly original and beautifully performed. They very likely heard the Spirit song when they were on tour together, but that doesn't make it plagiarism. Any good writer might have heard that descending riff and said, I hear something different on top of it, and it wouldn't be stealing. Saying Zep copped it, would set a bad precedent.
Ask any classical music scholar, and I bet they can name five pieces with a slowly descending chromatic scale off the top of their heads.
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Post by chasmanian on Apr 14, 2016 9:26:04 GMT -6
Profoundly awesome, insightful post Martin.
Thank you for writing it.
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Post by matt on Apr 14, 2016 12:18:27 GMT -6
The riff comprises the first 2:14 of the 8:03 song (in iTunes), so at best, any claim can be for a partial credit (around 28%), and associated future payments. For this song though, that would amount to a significant amount per year. But the theme has a long history, going way back in time. For instance, at 0:32 sec on this YT video, a 17th century Spanish guitar piece sounds similar:
There is also a YT video of an English folk guitarist playing the riff - exactly - before either Spirit or LZ wrote their songs. If I can find it, I'll post.
Did Page "steal" the riff? Maybe. But you can argue that Randy California did too. So I think this one is murky from a copyright perspective.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 14, 2016 15:21:04 GMT -6
Brilliant find Matt! This proves my point perfectly. In fact, this is actually much closer to Stairway's chord structure than the Spirit version. Anytime someone starts ranting about Zep and how they ripped off people, I'll just play this for them.
Tony, of course those example sound quite different, but that's just the clothing put on top of the body. Structurally, the first 4 movements of the classical piece at :30 seconds is exactly the same as Stairway's main riff, exactly. The next few chords are actually substitute chords for the rest of the Zep tune, so the entire phrase is nearly identical. It's in the key of Abm, and Stairway is in Am. They're so close you could loop the first few chords and just sing the Stairway into. If I had time, I'd do it, just for fun.
I'm working on music for two charity projects and don't have even a minute to spare to have a little fun.
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Post by M57 on Apr 14, 2016 18:20:08 GMT -6
Jim Croce - "Time in a Bottle" easily came to my mind. Harmonically speaking, it's the exact same progression for four bars - the only thing that's different is the strumming pattern.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 14, 2016 19:19:18 GMT -6
Well, there it is. In a couple of hours we've found two examples that prove this is a common theme that writers use to add their own ideas to. Much like the Pachelbel Canon, which has been responsible for at least a few thousand pop hits. Imagine anyone saying McCartney copped "Maybe I'm Amazed" or "Let It Be", or Elvis Costello stole "Accidents Will Happen", it would be ludicrous.
This is really the same basic thing.
I'm still amazed by the similarity to the Granata classical piece. It has the same two way movement Page used, 1/2 step descending bass notes with half step ascending high notes, amazing. I'd bet Page heard that long before he heard that Taurus song.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2016 19:47:36 GMT -6
All these pieces of music sound absurdly different from one another, I honestly thought the blurred lines thing was over the top as well, I never thought about the Marvin tune when i heard that the first time, and i'm a friggin musician! How some Jury is expected to decide on matters like this is another absurdity IMO. A hardcore rip off of a melody line in conjunction with lyrical phrasing is where the line should be drawn, the Sam ?/ Tom Petty rip was a total rip off by that standard.
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Post by levon on Apr 14, 2016 22:58:38 GMT -6
If I had written Stairway and copped a riff from somewhere, if my song would have sold 5 copies, as my songs usually do these days, nobody would give a shit. But because Zep sold millions,somebody sues. Why did the original writer never claimed his copyright and sued Page/Plant? No, some 'trustee' of Randy California does, long after Randy is gone. It all boils down to greed. Fuck 'em.
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Post by keymod on Apr 15, 2016 3:01:39 GMT -6
Problem is, the mindless a**holes they'll get to sit on the jury will know nothing about music. They'll look to sit the type of person with a chip on their shoulder against anyone who is successful, and they'll want to "stick it to the man".
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 15, 2016 8:43:25 GMT -6
I have a good friend who is a hugely successful writer/producer/director of television shows. He hasn't had a day in over thirty years he wasn't being sued by somebody. Scam artists and hacks send unsolicited material to producers all the time. If there's even the slightest similarity to a show they've created, they sue for plagiarism. My friend typically settles out of court, even though he's never seen or heard of the script that was sent. It's cheaper than going to trial, although he has gone to trial occasionally. He sees it like the parasites come with the territory. People not in his position might think it's wrong, and he should always proceed to trial, but if he did, he'd be in court more often than he's at work.
Tony, of course the classical piece might sound different, but in structure, from :30, the next four chords and movements are exactly the same as Stairway, exactly. It's not subjective, they're the same. Even the next few chords are chord substitutions for the Stairway riff. The classical piece is in Abm, Stairway, in Am. They're so close, if you edit and loop that one part, you could sing the entire intro verse of Stairway to it.
This lawsuit is bogus, Jimmy Page did what we all do, reach back to the roots, and take it forward. I hope those suing them lose, and lose money doing it. It diminishes all of us if they win.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 15, 2016 9:23:31 GMT -6
I was just imagining if this went to trial, what a jury of Jimmy Page's "peers" would look like. Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy, Mark Knopfler, Keith Richards..Man, that would be a hoot.
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Post by matt on Apr 15, 2016 17:37:04 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 15, 2016 19:23:15 GMT -6
Brilliant find Matt! This proves my point perfectly. In fact, this is actually much closer to Stairway's chord structure than the Spirit version. Anytime someone starts ranting about Zep and how they ripped off people, I'll just play this for them. Tony, of course those example sound quite different, but that's just the clothing put on top of the body. Structurally, the first 4 movements of the classical piece at :30 seconds is exactly the same as Stairway's main riff, exactly. The next few chords are actually substitute chords for the rest of the Zep tune, so the entire phrase is nearly identical. It's in the key of Abm, and Stairway is in Am. They're so close you could loop the first few chords and just sing the Stairway into. If I had time, I'd do it, just for fun. I'm working on music for two charity projects and don't have even a minute to spare to have a little fun. thats not what I was eluding to, but since you mention it, it is NOT exactly like it, NOT at all, you better take a listen, i can play stairway on guitar in my sleep, those are not the same notes, or intervals, and it doesn't even complete the same 4 bar phrase. here they are side by side NoFilterChuck analyze this for my dumbass with your chordie app!! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 15, 2016 20:24:36 GMT -6
I give up. Tony, you're always right, you have some kind of need to be right. I've only been making a living teaching guitar full time for for 25 years now, I guess I better go back to school. Things always gets pedantic with you, so it takes all the fun away.
The two pieces use different instrumentation, the classical piece has more than one instrument, so there's more notes involved than the solo guitar that Stairway has, and you're right, if I put them note for note on top of each other in the same key, there would be some minor differences. My point was, they're really so close, that it amounts to them briefly being the same piece of music with slight variations. Play any popular song, and you're bound to do one or two small things differently, it doesn't make it not the song.
Stairway's first 3 chords have an A bass with a high A on top, then Ab, with a high B, then G with a high C
In the classical piece, the first 3 chords have an Ab bass with a high Ab note, then a G bass with a high Bb, then a Gb with a high B.
Transpose the root and the high notes from the classical pieces three chords beginning at :32 up 1/2 step, and they're the same as Stairway, the fourth chord also descends, as does Stairway.
My point was that in a court of law, it would be much more accurate to say Stairway's main riff was based on an ancient classical piece, and not that crappy Spirit song. I support Jimmy Page in this case. It's would be sad if he gets labeled a plagiarist for such a wonderful piece of music.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 16, 2016 9:42:13 GMT -6
As far as I know, Chord progressions are not subject to copyright. Thats why there are hundreds of jazz tunes that use the same chord progression as gershwin's "I Got Rhythm".
Regarding the chord progression, they both begin with vi-minor, III(first inversion), I(2nd Inversion), II(first inversion)
In C, that would be: Amin, E/G#, C/G, D/F#
In B, that would be: Abmin, Eb/G, B/F#, Db/F.
If the melodic figuration of both chord progressions were identical, meaning if the actual notation of how you play each song, then they would have a problem with stealing the tune. I think the legal limit for copying music in that regard is no more than 7 seconds, but dont quote me on that.
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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2016 10:20:43 GMT -6
As far as I know, Chord progressions are not subject to copyright. Thats why there are hundreds of jazz tunes that use the same chord progression as gershwin's "I Got Rhythm". Regarding the chord progression, they both begin with vi-minor, III(first inversion), I(2nd Inversion), II(first inversion) In C, that would be: Amin, E/G#, C/G, D/F# In B, that would be: Abmin, Eb/G, B/F#, Db/F. If the melodic figuration of both chord progressions were identical, meaning if the actual notation of how you play each song, then they would have a problem with stealing the tune. I think the legal limit for copying music in that regard is no more than 7 seconds, but dont quote me on that. I agree that the melodic figure that accompanies the given harmony is relevant, but time is relative.. Slow it down enough and every song that starts with a C chord is fair game. I recall someone saying 7 or 8 measures. But really, that's no better than 7 seconds.. Half the hooks out there take 4 seconds or less. ..She loves you, Yeah Yeah Yeah. Agree with MJB. As far as I'm concerned, a jury of one's peers has become a joke in modern law. It use to mean 'people from your community who know and understand you.' Just like anything else that's a moving target, like technology, the legal framework that suppose to protect intellectual ownership is bullshit. Doesn't matter what the field. Hmm, on the other hand maybe there's a silver lining in here somewhere. Am I the only person who's sick and tired of three and four chord songs? |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 16, 2016 11:57:18 GMT -6
Listen to Bob Dylan "My Back Pages" and Stings "Fields of Gold"
On this basis 40 years from now someone related to Bob Dylan will be suing someone related to Sting.
It's all a bit pathetic if you ask me.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 16, 2016 13:25:35 GMT -6
First American Zep tour, they frequently played a medley which contained the Spirit song ‘Fresh Garbage’, which is on the same record as ’Taurus’. The claim they never heard ‘Taurus' doesn’t hold water.
You have to look at it in the context of the few years between those two songs 1968-1971, and within the rock idiom. I can't think of another piece so similar, with so much of the same atmosphere and vibe. Atmosphere and vibe both being chief marketing points of popular music at the time.
The argument that a suit should have happened years ago if legit is baseless. It was never filed for much the same reasons Jake Holmes took 30+ years to file on Dazed and Confused. It really doesn't matter if Randy is alive or not, his heirs/trust would have the same claim to pursue.
It is entirely likely that in Jimmy's heroin haze he really doesn't remember lifting the general concept at this late date. Clearly lifting various works was much more normal at the time, and history has reframed many similar incidents since. Hell, did April Wine get sued for the various quotes in 'I Like to Rock'? I don't know, but it sure doesn't get played on classic rock radio anymore, and you’d never get away with it today.
Guitar World commented on the ‘lifting’ in 1997, stating it may be Randy’s most enduring legacy. FWIW.
It’s funny to me that so many feel the need to defend Led Zeppelin. They can surely defend themselves. As great as I think they are, their acknowledging of credit due is among their weakest points.
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