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Post by jimwilliams on Apr 11, 2016 9:19:03 GMT -6
Peter Principle
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Post by svart on Apr 11, 2016 9:36:03 GMT -6
Because early in their careers, they are writing for themselves..
Middle of their careers their fans/customers are starting to say things like "I wish they'd do more stuff like the older stuff"
Later in their careers they are doing everything like their "old stuff" and given their fans what they wanted, but the fans are fickle and have become bored.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 11, 2016 9:51:31 GMT -6
it's always about fire, but empty children being the biggest stars in the world? wtf? Children, yes children rarely have anything important to say, and today's children pop stars are a joke, they represent the larger joke of our US society as a whole, in most other cultures around the world, successful musicians are indeed older, and are revered for the interesting stories they tell musically, as far as US pop, back in the 70's you had your Leif Garrett/Shaun Cassidy types, but they were the outliers, the stars of the day were indeed older, much older, they weren't burdened by the horrors of video, even if they were, David Bowie at his biggest was 37 years old! It's become an utterly shallow pool, make no mistake, as soon as TS shows some crows feet around her eyes, she's done, video indeed killed the radio star, and without it and autotune, most of today's pop cesspool wouldn't even be a blip on the radar, and that includes TS(do I need to repost her squallering vid?).
The reason i mention this is because it's hard to suck any worse later in your career if you totally suck to begin with. besides, these "old" people still put out good albums, but their fans are empty, closed off memorybots, so there is no audience anymore... "more cowbell! more cowbell! more cowbell!", smh, now get off my damn lawn!!!
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Post by matt on Apr 11, 2016 13:42:51 GMT -6
I've always found that there's truth in music - some of it anyway:
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Post by swurveman on Apr 11, 2016 17:13:19 GMT -6
Because early in their careers, they are writing for themselves.. Middle of their careers their fans/customers are starting to say things like "I wish they'd do more stuff like the older stuff" Later in their careers they are doing everything like their "old stuff" and given their fans what they wanted, but the fans are fickle and have become bored. No doubt this is true svart, but I think the opposite happens as well. Reading Pete Townshend's book, he recounts how in the early days he knew his working class audience and could articulate what they were feeling in his songs. As he and they got older, things changed and he said he felt he lost touch with the Who's audience and Bruce Springsteen came along and and filled the void. Of the two, I think band's are better off finding an audience and writing to them. Songwriting classes are always talking about writing universal songs, but I think there are so many subcultures that it's hard to write a universal song that appeals to all.
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Post by rocinante on Apr 11, 2016 18:08:02 GMT -6
This is an opinion so I need it to be taken as that. Okay, truth be told I write for me. If you like it (they have) then awesome. I like punk grind crusty sludgy black metal. Spinkle a little atmospheric/death/doom for good measure. Yeah. Matter of fact I love it. Some of my favorite bands I've actually played with. I write/play a kind of world folk gypsy punk but often its with black metal and punk bands. It so much doesnt make sense that it does. Grandparents like my band. And although they dont always enjoy the crust band we are playing with, they at least try. And that i like too. None of us ever cared if anyone liked it. We knew they did. I am not being arrogant and for the most part im still a nobody, I am stating facts. You see, they can tell when you want them to like it. And they can tell when the band knows that they will. When we take the stage I often say to my mates something along the lines of "Now lets show these pretentious plastic Ken dolls how its really fucking done." And within 2 or 3 songs there's over 100 people dancing. On a Tuesday night in January. And my mates are smiling.
Tom Waits definitely stopped caring what people thought when he wrote "swordfish trombones" and "bone machine". Both are amazing albums that broke every genre barrier there was. And got him a few Grammy's as well. Its not like I have a choice. I'm gonna die writing and playing music. Maybe even alone. But I did it from the heart. And boy oh boy did I have a good time.
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Post by iamasound on Apr 11, 2016 18:36:48 GMT -6
Youthful exuberance and the ability to maintain a hard-on for extended periods of time, the novelty of existence experienced with fresh and wide opened eyes, the seeming inability to acknowledge the future as well as the denial of aging; all these do wonders and feed the muse as we beg to recieve her gifts with open arms, and any and everything is a possibility, likely to happen given half a chance by the smooth-skinned beauty of yesteryear.
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Post by ericn on Apr 11, 2016 20:11:24 GMT -6
There also is the whole Young naive and stupid, understands young naive and stupid! In other words Taylor Swift still knows what's it like to be 15! At 30 the market of buyers shrink !
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Post by rocinante on Apr 11, 2016 22:34:11 GMT -6
Youthful exuberance and the ability to maintain a hard-on for extended periods of time, the novelty of existence experienced with fresh and wide opened eyes, the seeming inability to acknowledge the future as well as the denial of aging; all these do wonders and feed the muse as we beg to recieve her gifts with open arms, and any and everything is a possibility, likely to happen given half a chance by the smooth-skinned beauty of yesteryear. Ha!!! You hit it there sir! Tip of the hat.
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Post by rocinante on Apr 11, 2016 22:41:22 GMT -6
They found a black hole the density (so probably size) of 17 billion stars. To put it into perspective; 1.3 million earths can fit into the sun. There are also many stars that are the size of from Jupiter to the Sun. This black hole is the size of 17 billion. There would be nothing that us humans could consider reality even near such a behemoth. Now what do you think Taylor Swift thinks about that? Im sure if young Pink Floyd were around today they would've written albums about it. I didn't love the later stuff.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 12, 2016 8:30:00 GMT -6
iamasound makes a good point. Everything is new when you're young. So, both the audience and musicians experience them together. The music is exciting, because it's all fresh. Few artists have the talent and imagination to evolve in a way that keeps their audience interested.
So, bands typically begin to suck because they've given their best already, and don't have much more to give that is different enough to have gained attention in its own right. Also, only a few artists can manage the tightrope walk of doing new things without completely losing their audience forever.
Lots of bands have an afterlife, they basically become nostalgia acts, but they can make a living, so why not give people a taste of what they enjoyed when they were young. Relative to their early career, yes, they might "suck", but if they bring people something they really enjoy, it still has value, and they've earned the chance to make a living playing music.
I only wish I could be one of those "nostalgia acts". The guy's in my band died before we could become popular enough to continue to make a living at it. I have a friend in a band that was quite a big thing in England in the 80's, now they're touring the world, playing gigs between 3,000 seats and 60,000, and playing their asses off, even though they haven't made any new music since then. If they didn't suck in the first place, which they didn't, they never completely suck later, even if they're not creating new material.
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Post by svart on Apr 12, 2016 8:38:39 GMT -6
Because early in their careers, they are writing for themselves.. Middle of their careers their fans/customers are starting to say things like "I wish they'd do more stuff like the older stuff" Later in their careers they are doing everything like their "old stuff" and given their fans what they wanted, but the fans are fickle and have become bored. No doubt this is true svart, but I think the opposite happens as well. Reading Pete Townshend's book, he recounts how in the early days he knew his working class audience and could articulate what they were feeling in his songs. As he and they got older, things changed and he said he felt he lost touch with the Who's audience and Bruce Springsteen came along and and filled the void. Of the two, I think band's are better off finding an audience and writing to them. Songwriting classes are always talking about writing universal songs, but I think there are so many subcultures that it's hard to write a universal song that appeals to all. You got me thinking about the reason behind why people love early songs from bands/artists, but tend to love their newer songs less, even though they might be almost identical in content, and performance. I don't think it's as much "getting bored" as I might have thought originally. I think it's because people form attachments to certain songs due to life experiences, and we tend to do it while listening to things that we find new and interesting. We tend to bond to songs that got us through "tough times", etc. Case in point, in my early teens, I was just coming around to listening to music, mainly various forms of thrash and extreme metal. I can think of a few instances that listening to certain songs that I liked at the time, got me through some tough life lessons. Now, those songs are some of my all-time favorites, even though the bands have put out far "better" records since, and have often tried to mimic those early records with their later ones. So I think that society goes through phases, and that each generation will always have some kind of connection to an era of music, and that the later releases will always be compared to the earlier ones that made connections.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 12, 2016 17:34:48 GMT -6
Just chipping in to say I really love John and Yoko's Double Fantasy album. Really challenging and progressive music from some serious fogeys by then music standards. They sounded like The B52's met raggae met heavy metal on that one, and it's amazing.
Likewise Paul's II album is really great. Closer to a Devo-ish type thing, Temporary Secretary may be the most fun he has ever had.
Outside many of the other agreements made here that I agree with, I think often what happens is the artists ears grow and the fans don't. Lots of people become capable of great work at different points, but the definition is subjective.
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Post by joseph on Apr 12, 2016 21:47:38 GMT -6
I think the main reasons are they lose the spark and their audiences don't necessarily get smaller. So they are positively reinforced for lazy music and travel up their own asses.
Sad to say, but the best artists seem to be those who can still get down on themselves after they become famous.
Or who collaborate with new people, leaving the spotlight for a while and working with those who are not afraid to tell them what they really think.
I do agree that sometimes artists do evolve for the better and original fans are just stupid or only care about hooks.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 13, 2016 10:52:21 GMT -6
Certainly timeliness was a big factor prior to the late '80s. It was not uncommon for a song to be on the radio within weeks of it being composed. If it was selling in the local stores, it stayed on the air. Still that's a general trend towards mediocrity.
Most of the really great writers I've known are staggeringly prolific. The best of five to ten years of their songwriting before their first hit is bound to be way better than what they can come up with in just a few months to meet an album release deadline.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2016 7:32:58 GMT -6
Certainly timeliness was a big factor prior to the late '80s. It was not uncommon for a song to be on the radio within weeks of it being composed. If it was selling in the local stores, it stayed on the air. Still that's a general trend towards mediocrity. Most of the really great writers I've known are staggeringly prolific. The best of five to ten years of their songwriting before their first hit is bound to be way better than what they can come up with in just a few months to meet an album release deadline. if I understand correctly, it took J Lennon 7 years to finish writing Strawberry Fields Forever, if you check out youtube, you can find a slew of classic tunes that were apparently under construction for quite some time.
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Post by joseph on Apr 14, 2016 18:49:21 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 14, 2016 20:52:28 GMT -6
I know clever and talented chaps but they even never had something like a career, and they don't fell sorry for this. In other words - place 100 can work a lifetime - number one gets hard one day.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 15, 2016 10:28:33 GMT -6
Heres a quote that John told George Martin at dinner about redoing all the beatles songs because he wasn't happy with them .... "It’s a funny thing, John said this to me originally when we were spending an evening together and it shook me to the core when we were talking about old things and he said, ‘I’d love to do everything again.’ To me that was just a horror. And I said, “John, you can’t really mean it. Even Strawberry Fields? And he said, “Especially Strawberry Fields!” I thought, oh shit, all the effort that went into that. We worked very hard on that trying to capture something that was nebulous. "
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 15, 2016 12:30:35 GMT -6
George Martin has said or possibly even said to me when we met that if they'd had Pro Tools, they'd probably still be working on Sgt. Pepper's!
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 15, 2016 13:09:37 GMT -6
George Martin has said or possibly even said to me when we met that if they'd had Pro Tools, they'd probably still be working on Sgt. Pepper's! We should pin that post....
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Post by vinnymayo on Jun 23, 2023 7:48:43 GMT -6
I think sometimes bands, just like anyone else, can fall into a creative rut or get caught up in a routine. Maybe the pressure to recreate the magic of their early work hinders their ability to experiment and take risks. Speaking of career pathways, I've been contemplating a switch myself and recently stumbled upon some intriguing info online. I came across this website on how to become a mobile locksmith, and it got me thinking. It might be worth checking out if you're open to exploring different career options. Here's the link www.howtobecomealocksmith.org/how-to-become-a-commercial-locksmith/
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 23, 2023 8:19:11 GMT -6
Nice to see this one again!
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 23, 2023 9:52:54 GMT -6
@rociante and eric are totally right. I don't have the drive I had 15 years ago...I've probably written over a thousand songs...and had each one of them rejected an average of ten times each. You start to get jaded. And like Eric said...everybody and their mother is writing their diary to music and calling it music. In all honesty, it's entirely NOT about the song. It's about selling an image...doesn't matter what you say anymore. But I'm not bitter. Being a little bitter is OK if you're chocolate!
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Post by schlep on Jun 23, 2023 11:22:18 GMT -6
I hold the "Creative Window" theory; most have a creative window and it is only open for so long... how long varies of course from person to person or band to band. That doesn't really answer the 'why' question, but as I read throug this threas, it os for many of the reasons stated here.
This is not slanderous as I am a Beatles fan, but I do belive had they not split, the window would have eventually closed for them as well, despite all of their creativity. Look at the Stones who followed a vaguely similary tajectory... nothing really great since Tattoo You or maybe the album that followed.
At the end of the day, there is only so much to say / write until you keep repeating yourself or are bored of your writing.
Mentioned earlier in this thread... try to listening for new influence, or reading. This can help keep your 'Creative Window' open a bit longer.
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