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Post by Ward on Mar 25, 2016 10:17:56 GMT -6
SMH... for this unfamiliar with the abbreviation it means "Shaking my head".
Recording chain from end to start:
Audio Recording platform <- Converter <- compressor(s) and/or EQ(s) <- Preamp <- Microphone.
Let's call the ARP a DAW since tape is the 1% left, and most of us are the 99%. Let's call comps and EQs tone-shapers. Let's attribute a sound to all these and assign a percentage of sound to each one.
DAW 10%. Yes, DAWs sound different and not just their programming but how they work with pluginz. So I'm including that.
Converter 1% - and that is MAXIMUM in the pro world, whether it's Avid HD, Apollo, Burl or Apogee. They vary but they're all quality and try to be as transparent as possible
Tone-shapers: 10%.
Preamps: 10% MAX... the monumental differences you hear from $500 to $15,000 preamps is mostly subtle at best and the basic designs of all have some similarities and are designed to make a signal louder, nothing more.
What are we left with?? 69%
That's the microphone. Of which 80% of that is the capsule.
This is just my humble opinion and the opinions shared by many friends in the recording industry who I've had the pleasure to sit in with at times and have collectively produced 1/2 the records sold in the past 40 years. They must be doing something right. Me? I haven't sold platinum yet and am just happy to be in good company with a lot of great folks and get to sing guide vocals, backing vocals, guitar and mandolin, piano, organ and other bits on their records, often anonymously. [/i]
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 25, 2016 10:49:08 GMT -6
I would agree, except I say the Converter is a much bigger percentage of the equation. Mine would be (and this is totally nerdy...but just getting a point across.)
Mic - 75% Pre and converter - 15% Others - 10%
Of course, an EQ can change the sound dramatically, but we're talking tone.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 25, 2016 11:23:47 GMT -6
I have no arbitrary numbers to throw out but after partaking in a large blind AD/DA round trip shootout, to my ears, they certainly sound different from one another, and some MUCH better than others, once u get to a certain level, it's combinations of chains that create contrasting colors, the idea that buying one item will be "it" is not quite right imo, it will be that specific sound only, I have a beater C3 studio projects that I record all of my ideas with, I've tried mixing things that turned out well performance wise, I found it very diffcult to differentiate and create contrast between sources as they all have the same subtle features, lots of gear=lots of colors, JME
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 25, 2016 11:33:00 GMT -6
Well, "arbitrary" is a bit condescending. While I wouldn't argue numbers. I do think they represent a good overall objective picture of the general contributions of each piece of gear.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2016 12:37:53 GMT -6
As always, I'll add that anyone who thinks there isn't a ton of difference in preamps hasn't used a lot of vintage (ancient) preamps. If you've only used post-1960 stuff, it is a much more narrow window.
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Mar 25, 2016 15:17:12 GMT -6
An alternative perspective.
Consider the design of this and other similar questions: "Preamp or Mics", "Photographer or Camera", "Skill vs Gear". Their very structure necessarily creates a leading, adversarial answer. As svart aptly noted earlier; the question creates an "existential dilemma". But there is no dilemma! Mics and Pres work together, not against. Engineer's skills sum with gear quality, neither stands alone. Its not about one thing versus another. Its about a whole chain, a system. We always hear the system, never just one thing in isolation.
Have you ever asked "If I drive at the speed of light, do my headlights work?". While this may spark an interesting conversation, most physicist would tell you its somewhat useless and not relevant to our lives. I would caution that asking existential dilemma questions about audio is likewise unhelpful. By avoiding such questions we spare ourselves from misguided answers.
More progressive is to try and conceptualize the whole system. What are the interactions? What are the losses? No single thing is the most important. Everything matters.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 25, 2016 15:53:30 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Mar 25, 2016 16:04:21 GMT -6
An alternative perspective. Consider the design of this and other similar questions: "Preamp or Mics", "Photographer or Camera", "Skill vs Gear". Their very structure necessarily creates a leading, adversarial answer. As svart aptly noted earlier; the question creates an "existential dilemma". But there is no dilemma! Mics and Pres work together, not against. Engineer's skills sum with gear quality, neither stands alone. Its not about one thing versus another. Its about a whole chain, a system. We always hear the system, never just one thing in isolation. Have you ever asked "If I drive at the speed of light, do my headlights work?". While this may spark an interesting conversation, most physicist would tell you its somewhat useless and not relevant to our lives. I would caution that asking existential dilemma questions about audio is likewise unhelpful. By avoiding such questions we spare ourselves from misguided answers. More progressive is to try and conceptualize the whole system. What are the interactions? What are the losses? No single thing is the most important. Everything matters. All well and good, but relative 'value' can and should be considered. All football teams need 11 players on the field to win, but the teams with the best quarterbacks have a considerable advantage. Tackles never get MVP awards ..or massive salaries.
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Post by popmann on Mar 25, 2016 16:31:17 GMT -6
It's not artificial. There is a fixed budget for all project studios. Where do you spend the money is why this comes up. You need to know where to put your limited money.
It's a pretty easy question to answer quickly for anyone....and literally impossible to answer for everyone.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 25, 2016 17:05:44 GMT -6
It's not artificial. There is a fixed budget for all project studios. Where do you spend the money is why this comes up. You need to know where to put your limited money. It's a pretty easy question to answer quickly for anyone....and literally impossible to answer for everyone. Yes, the problem is few try to build on Qaulity overtime, example the $1000 question I would by a used Gefell mt71s for $850 and what ever Small Soundcraft, Soundtracs ect I could get for $150 to use as pre and other utility duties, Then get a decent interface, then find a Bargain used pre !
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2016 17:22:13 GMT -6
I think it's mic first. Give me the wrong mic, no preamp can fix it.
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Post by porkyman on Mar 25, 2016 18:22:38 GMT -6
with a fixed budget i think i rather have one great pre and a bunch of lesser mics. that being said if i could find the perfect mic to match my voice id sell everything i had to buy it and go from there.
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Post by drbill on Mar 25, 2016 19:36:19 GMT -6
I choose mics because they look cooler.....
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Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2016 19:51:36 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Mar 25, 2016 19:56:05 GMT -6
As always, I'll add that anyone who thinks there isn't a ton of difference in preamps hasn't used a lot of vintage (ancient) preamps. If you've only used post-1960 stuff, it is a much more narrow window. Exactly! Even the most cloth eared people I know can hear the difference between our Mercury Brüder V72s/V76m and most of our other post 1970 preamps. Fatter, bigger, warmer etc are the typical comments.
"Makes me sound like a 1950's BBC radio announcer!" was another comment.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2016 20:03:51 GMT -6
No fair EmRR, that's some serious gear porn right there. One look at that thing and I'd vote preamp too.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2016 20:46:58 GMT -6
It's a tough call.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 25, 2016 20:49:56 GMT -6
It's a tough call. Doug You have some very cool stuff!
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Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2016 22:59:03 GMT -6
I think we need both!
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Post by rowmat on Mar 26, 2016 0:05:50 GMT -6
How's the Samar? I was thinking about getting another AEA R84 but the Samar does interest me.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2016 0:09:49 GMT -6
It's fantastic. I can't compare it to an R84 though, don't have one.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2016 0:12:19 GMT -6
The great thing about an RCA BA series module is they pop right out of the rack, so if a rat runs through the control room, you can pull a module and whack the sucker. The heft is just right to do some real damage.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2016 14:54:06 GMT -6
The great thing about an RCA BA series module is they pop right out of the rack, so if a rat runs through the control room, you can pull a module and whack the sucker. The heft is just right to do some real damage. Everybody should take a look at Dougs site, he has some very very cool esoteric stuff that for the most part has flown under the radar. The results he gets are great as well, plus the only guy I ever heard call him an asshole is the very definition of asshole!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 26, 2016 17:19:05 GMT -6
How's the Samar? I was thinking about getting another AEA R84 but the Samar does interest me. Dude - the VL37's are fantastic...and like $700 I've used the R84 many times and they are two completely different animals (btw, Samar says the VL37 and the more expensive one sound the same...so why the price diff?). The VL37 isn't rolled off nearly as much. I thought it sounded very similar to the MK-U47 I had.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2016 17:41:13 GMT -6
How's the Samar? I was thinking about getting another AEA R84 but the Samar does interest me. Dude - the VL37's are fantastic...and like $700 I've used the R84 many times and they are two completely different animals (btw, Samar says the VL37 and the more expensive one sound the same...so why the price diff?). The VL37 isn't rolled off nearly as much. I thought it sounded very similar to the MK-U47 I had. Next Nashvegas adventure I want to here both you and Herbie through that thing!
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