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Post by Ward on Feb 1, 2016 22:26:06 GMT -6
Ok, granted Anderson Paak is one of my favorite new singers. Love his REALNESS in his voice. And I think he's writing great songs. But why in the name of solder burns is everything so out of sync on this track???
Am I the only one so bothered by this???
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Post by M57 on Feb 2, 2016 5:33:18 GMT -6
Maybe it's my lack of understanding and sophistication where engineering is concerned, but I'm not hearing things out of sync. I'm hearing different players pushing and pulling each other and it sounds musical to me. I really like the song and the write. The things that bother me about this recording are the intonation of the BVs in places (especially 1:24, where they sound horrible) and the slightly phasey out-of-tune upright piano, which btw is the 'trend' I seem to be hearing in some of today's recordings.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 2, 2016 6:15:56 GMT -6
I guess ideally something in between perfect strict time and vibe/groove is best ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 2, 2016 8:22:44 GMT -6
U know what else has perfectly strict time? A clock, and I don't get too excited about hearing them tick, yet somehow people have come to think a buried click or laser metronomic time is good in music, maybe sometimes, but it's the exception not the rule.
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Post by M57 on Feb 2, 2016 9:17:26 GMT -6
I don't know how it was done by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham back in the good ol' days, but speaking as someone who tries to do as much as I can in the studio, playing all the tracks, etc. I'm becoming more and more aware of how my bass playing doesn't always line up nicely with my piano/guitar playing and singing., and how the drummer that comes in to do the session after just a few tracks are down has to deal with how all that slop sits mostly in front of the click, etc. I know part of it is that I am not a first class player; I consider myself a singer/songwriter first and foremost, but even after applying some subtle flexing to smooth things out, I wonder how much the 'back and forth' between the asynchronous musicians sounds different than if there were 4 or 5 of me's recording live and reacting to each others' tempo shifts in real time.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 2, 2016 9:30:05 GMT -6
I don't know how it was done by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham back in the good ol' days, but speaking as someone who tries to do as much as I can in the studio, playing all the tracks, etc. I'm becoming more and more aware of how my bass playing doesn't always line up nicely with my piano/guitar playing and singing., and how the drummer that comes in to do the session after just a few tracks are down has to deal with how all that slop sits mostly in front of the click, etc. I know part of it is that I am not a first class player; I consider myself a singer/songwriter first and foremost, but even after applying some subtle flexing to smooth things out, I wonder how much the 'back and forth' between the asynchronous musicians sounds different than if there were 4 or 5 of me's recording live and reacting to each others' tempo shifts in real time. I'm pretty sure they played core tracks live no? To me the time is about bass/drums around a center(vox), and in that order really, the sooner you can get that locked down the better, so my ideal personal "self played on all tracks" method would be... perfectly phrased scratch vox as a guide, bassline, drums, then whatever tickles you, of course it's horses for courses with this stuff...
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Post by Ward on Feb 2, 2016 13:03:43 GMT -6
Sure... let's go with the "sloppy and shitty is feel" bollocks. OR... maybe we think that at least the kick and bass should line up once in a while, and it might be nice if the snare and guitar & piano chords were close to being together on the 2&4, once in a while? You know, like professionals do?
(OUCH, my eyes rolled so far back in my head then it hurt)
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 2, 2016 13:30:20 GMT -6
Are you guys familiar with D'Angelo?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 2, 2016 14:57:01 GMT -6
Right when the guitar comes in at :23, it's all over the place. I agree with Ward. I'm not offended by the looseness of the track, but it does come in wonky and slither around throughout.
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Post by Ward on Feb 2, 2016 18:51:37 GMT -6
Right when the guitar comes in at :23, it's all over the place. I agree with Ward. I'm not offended by the looseness of the track, but it does come in wonky and slither around throughout. Thanks... and the kick and bass are 16th notes apart when they're supposed to be together! It ruins the song for me... such a great song too. If you've ever cruised around LA, or come up over the 405 into the 605, the 5, the 15, and you look across towards the north shore and Forest, the lines make sense. "On a clear day you can see West LA..." "Don't be concerned with the money in your brother's hand" Really nice hooks. BUT Consarn it, get it together musically!!
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Post by Ward on Feb 2, 2016 18:52:04 GMT -6
and pardon my A.O.G./Pentecostal swearing there.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 2, 2016 18:57:21 GMT -6
I know there's timing issues, but I prefer this to so many grid correct mixes. Great song, warts and all.
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Post by formatcyes on Feb 2, 2016 19:20:35 GMT -6
I don't know how it was done by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham back in the good ol' days, but speaking as someone who tries to do as much as I can in the studio, playing all the tracks, etc. I'm becoming more and more aware of how my bass playing doesn't always line up nicely with my piano/guitar playing and singing., and how the drummer that comes in to do the session after just a few tracks are down has to deal with how all that slop sits mostly in front of the click, etc. I know part of it is that I am not a first class player; I consider myself a singer/songwriter first and foremost, but even after applying some subtle flexing to smooth things out, I wonder how much the 'back and forth' between the asynchronous musicians sounds different than if there were 4 or 5 of me's recording live and reacting to each others' tempo shifts in real time. Latency, latency and latency, My light bulb moment was when I played bass live with the drummer it was lock in recording bass after mmmm no. Its not good enough to just rely on your daws loop back results Test it loop the output back to the input and adjust as necessary until it lines up. Don't use digital monitoring the latency hurts your playing especially bass and drums.
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Post by M57 on Feb 2, 2016 19:22:09 GMT -6
I don't know how it was done by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham back in the good ol' days, but speaking as someone who tries to do as much as I can in the studio, playing all the tracks, etc. I'm becoming more and more aware of how my bass playing doesn't always line up nicely with my piano/guitar playing and singing., and how the drummer that comes in to do the session after just a few tracks are down has to deal with how all that slop sits mostly in front of the click, etc. I know part of it is that I am not a first class player; I consider myself a singer/songwriter first and foremost, but even after applying some subtle flexing to smooth things out, I wonder how much the 'back and forth' between the asynchronous musicians sounds different than if there were 4 or 5 of me's recording live and reacting to each others' tempo shifts in real time. Latency, latency and latency, My light bulb moment was when I played bass live with the drummer it was lock in recording bass after mmmm no. Its not good enough to just rely on your daws loop back results Test it loop the output back to the input and adjust as necessary until it lines up. Don't use digital monitoring the latency hurts your playing especially bass and drums. hmmm... >scratches chin<
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Post by odyssey76 on Feb 3, 2016 8:27:24 GMT -6
I don't know how it was done by the likes of Lindsey Buckingham back in the good ol' days, but speaking as someone who tries to do as much as I can in the studio, playing all the tracks, etc. I'm becoming more and more aware of how my bass playing doesn't always line up nicely with my piano/guitar playing and singing., and how the drummer that comes in to do the session after just a few tracks are down has to deal with how all that slop sits mostly in front of the click, etc. I know part of it is that I am not a first class player; I consider myself a singer/songwriter first and foremost, but even after applying some subtle flexing to smooth things out, I wonder how much the 'back and forth' between the asynchronous musicians sounds different than if there were 4 or 5 of me's recording live and reacting to each others' tempo shifts in real time. For me, the key to a track with a loose feel but acceptably modern starts with a real good drummer (obviously) who can track with a click. They don't have to be perfectly in line with the click but preferably really close all the time on the downbeat. What happens between downbeats gives the rhythm it's movement and human feel. This should be unedited if the drummer is good. What I'll do is then line bass guitar with drums BUT usually moving the bass notes just ever so slightly behind kick and snare transients. If you listen and align these bass notes you can get the kick and snare to have much more punch and become fuller. Plus it gives the track a nicer groove because the bass player sounds "laid back" and in the pocket. You must listen to your moves though, don't just line them up and think everything is going to be great because you have your drum transient and bass transient in the same place every time. Guitarists are always all over the place and usually rushing - I'm one of those guys. This is usually ok if the guitar player is good and is close. This is certainly an element that will provide that push/pull feel. The icing on the cake is the compression. If you use the compressor so that its shaving off just 1-3db on all of these instruments (and again the performances were good) you can create that "whack-a-mole" effect in a nice subtle manner. Great for dynamics while also highlighting more of the push/pull between players.
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Post by Ward on Feb 3, 2016 11:42:39 GMT -6
There's the oddest thing... Anderson Paak has also worked as a drummer. So, don't you think it might be something important to him? I don't understand it.
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Post by stratboy on Feb 3, 2016 15:08:16 GMT -6
If he is a drummer, too, then maybe he knows what he's doing and it's an artistic choice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 18:09:25 GMT -6
Reminds me of the time when i went straight out of the practise room, going home, whenever the drummer came in grinning and with red eyes. Because we were off like that on these occasions and it bothered me big time. Beeing so off happened to me when overdubbing to a drumtrack that was recorded live without click and varied quite a bit in tempo...
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 6, 2016 19:27:45 GMT -6
I think the "sloppyness" is very deliberate syncopation. The bass seems to always land a 16th behind the kick, and there's a few patterns in it like that. It seems like looped "loose" parts. It'd feel way less busy if you quantized it.
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Post by donr on Mar 12, 2016 14:57:41 GMT -6
The timing quirks sound intentional to me. Like he did the whole thing as he went along, a demo, then decided not to re-record it.
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Post by unit7 on Mar 13, 2016 3:20:02 GMT -6
Are you guys familiar with D'Angelo? +1. Surprised that noone followed up on this. I mean there's really a clear line pre and post Vodoo (was it around year 2000?). Some rappers like Snoop did stretch a bit before that, but that was mostly the vocals/rap done really laid back. But to me it was obvious the big impact Vodoo made. Suddenly there were many productions that experimented with grooves like this and it was really trendy for a while. I am teaching part time and another perspective was seeing how hugely influenced my students were by this album. I also remember an interview w Pino Palladino (bass on Vodoo) joking that he thought he might get unemployed after the release of the album.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 13, 2016 14:14:45 GMT -6
I think it's mostly an excuse, if it ain't anchored and groovin, it ain't good to me, that said, unit7s tune is somewhat anchored though a bit uneasy..., not for me, I like stinky rhythm, natural and badass, a lot of these dudes don't have it.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 13, 2016 14:36:31 GMT -6
It's probably in sync. The problem with that is a properly timed beginning of a note rarely falls on a grid.
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Post by unit7 on Mar 13, 2016 23:47:54 GMT -6
I think it's mostly an excuse, if it ain't anchored and groovin, it ain't good to me, that said, unit7s tune is somewhat anchored though a bit uneasy..., not for me, I like stinky rhythm, natural and badass, a lot of these dudes don't have it. I usually feel uneasy too if it ain't anchored and I'm a sucker for a good groove. And this really is, I mean the stuff on the whole Vodoo album. It just takes a few listens to get into, but when you do it's the sexiest sh*t! Guess that it takes a badass groovy drummer like Questlove to pull it off. But hey T, if it ain't for you..
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 14, 2016 6:29:08 GMT -6
It's probably in sync. The problem with that is a properly timed beginning of a note rarely falls on a grid. Gridded and cutesy, a lousy contrived combo, people cutting in a room together feeding off of one another is thee shit! U know, music! 8)
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