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Post by chasmanian on Jan 2, 2016 19:19:13 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 2, 2016 22:15:18 GMT -6
Another nice link which is telling -12 dbfs peak as reference. The reason most useres are confused is that they think there must be a conection between dbu and dbfs, but happy guessing there is no conection. You can set your 0 VU point at any dbfs point. BBC spec: −18 dBFS = PPM "4" = 0 dBu American Post: −20 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu Orchestral −18 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu Rock and / or Radio −16, or −14, or −12 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu Digi 002 is only capable of −14 dBFS. German ARD & studio PPM +6 dBu = −10 (−9) dBFS. +16 (+15) dBu = 0 dBFS. I use minus 18 dbfs, because that is where 0 VU is set on my console by Allen and Heath, as reference and I use my ears. Some plug ins, or hadware, do sound good with higher levels too. I love trim plug ins.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 18:27:37 GMT -6
Oh, never heard of EBU calibration with -10dBfs, just -9dBfs. Always something to learn...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 18:39:35 GMT -6
Btw., if you want to hear the probably worst effects of overloading a plugin, try Nebula plugin. It is totally obvious if you overload it. It often sounds extremely bad or is simply not working at all in the engine. Unfortunately it is not always as obvious, overloading plugins without taking note of it seems more common as it should ... people in the meantime might be used to listen to hard clipping, distortion etc. in modern pop productions, played back on mobile phones and notebooks ... ("No, it's not 'crisp', it's simply distorted...")
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 7, 2016 19:00:13 GMT -6
Btw., if you want to hear the probably worst effects of overloading a plugin, try Nebula plugin. It is totally obvious if you overload it. It often sounds extremely bad or is simply not working at all in the engine. Unfortunately it is not always as obvious, overloading plugins without taking note of it seems more common as it should ... people in the meantime might be used to listen to hard clipping, distortion etc. in modern pop productions, played back on mobile phones and notebooks ... ("No, it's not 'crisp', it's simply distorted...") To me I use my ears as well some plugs sound pushed good, for example tape sims, or missusing the uad 1176 as saturation tool - set with compression off. This therad inspired me to hit the channels of my desk super low in level it. It means I have a lot of headroom, and that brought wow deepnes to the mix, my yaw stood open for a while. The downside is, as soon you want to push the summing amp a bit, to glue it a tat... you get audible noise. I have found a denoise plug in with minimum artifacts. Its intresting to experiment with diffrent levels of headroom. And Bob is right the conversion sounds way cleaner when you follow this guide line in tracking too. Learning never stops.... PS. With the numbers above I am not quite sure if Professor Senpiel just took some randoms out to make the issue clear....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 19:40:42 GMT -6
Ah, that's where you got that from. Sengpiel normally is a very good source for everything electroacoustics... I was just corrected at the Harrison forum with what i read in a summary about levels, and this guy surely knows better than me and by chance even better than Sengpiel, this guy programmed a bunch of quality standard meters for Mixbus. (And a previous version is open source/Linux only if i remember it right...) I guess the overall messages about recording levels have become clear in this thread. ("Quiet, please!") :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 19:45:02 GMT -6
Hm, if you liked what you heard with levels low on the way into the console, i guess you like the analog console philosophy of Jim Williams... No color, just clean, gimme all that transients... :-)
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 7, 2016 20:28:15 GMT -6
Hm, if you liked what you heard with levels low on the way into the console, i guess you like the analog console philosophy of Jim Williams... No color, just clean, gimme all that transients... :-) Mh it still shaped them off a bit when pushing the summing amp. I wish I could afford this baby...... www.xound.com/testbericht-spl-neos.html
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 7, 2016 20:34:27 GMT -6
Hm, if you liked what you heard with levels low on the way into the console, i guess you like the analog console philosophy of Jim Williams... No color, just clean, gimme all that transients... :-) Mh it still shaped them off a bit when pushing the summing amp. I wish I could afford this baby...... www.xound.com/testbericht-spl-neos.htmlThere was a Neos for $4000us a couple weeks ago on GS.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 7, 2016 20:41:25 GMT -6
I said I wish.....
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 7, 2016 20:53:22 GMT -6
I was wishing too.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 7, 2016 21:41:49 GMT -6
I was wishing too. Easy, on saturday I win the lotery on monday I buy it new....
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Post by svart on Jan 7, 2016 22:35:36 GMT -6
For me it depends.
I typically just kiss the bottom of the reds in the meters, but don't clip the signal going into the SSL Alphalink. I also don't do it during mixing either, as it gets kinda farty sounding.
HOWEVER.. When mixing down, I slam my A/D harder than anything because it takes it like a champ and doesn't get farty or super grainy, it just gives a nice compression and transient shaving until it finally gets crunchy, and if it does, I just back off a bit. Think of the old digidesign converters they used to push hard for the sound they made..
Again guys, it's all about what sounds good. Numbers don't matter if it sounds right.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 8, 2016 16:28:56 GMT -6
Intresting svart . I just still see one problem with levels, special in a hybrid setup. Lets say 0 VU is set @- 18 dbfs RMS For example: UAD manual says most of thier plugs have the sweetspot there, but 33609 has it -12 to - 20 dbfs. Now my console has 0 at - 18 dbfs. But my RME interface says -12 dbfs at the input stage. I can handle this as long I know the numbers of each unit. My Gyraf G SSL clone.?? First of all it has no manual with this I have no idea how hard I can hit the input stage. In this case what would you do? Staying at -18 dbfs RMS? THX in advance H.
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Post by svart on Jan 8, 2016 16:43:12 GMT -6
Intresting svart . I just still see one problem with levels, special in a hybrid setup. Lets say 0 VU is set @- 18 dbfs RMS For example: UAD manual says most of thier plugs have the sweetspot there, but 33609 has it -12 to - 20 dbfs. Now my console has 0 at - 18 dbfs. But my RME interface says -12 dbfs at the input stage. I can handle this as long I know the numbers of each unit. My Gyraf G SSL clone.?? First of all it has no manual with this I have no idea how hard I can hit the input stage. In this case what would you do? Staying at -18 dbfs RMS? THX in advance H. It's important to understand that plugins and hardware react differently to overloading. Plugins are more likely to have a "hard" limit where distortion becomes 100% barely over this limit. Hardware will react with an increasing distortion to a point, if the design is robust enough. I use almost no plugins at all, and mostly hardware. I push levels until distortion and then back off a couple dB, unless the distortion sounds good, then I keep going! Also, a dirty secret in the world of electronics.. The published numbers are rarely accurate. They are usually "weighted" and "adjusted" to seem better than they are. I wouldn't bet money or my life that the levels are accurate..
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 8, 2016 17:35:35 GMT -6
Intresting svart . I just still see one problem with levels, special in a hybrid setup. Lets say 0 VU is set @- 18 dbfs RMS For example: UAD manual says most of thier plugs have the sweetspot there, but 33609 has it -12 to - 20 dbfs. Now my console has 0 at - 18 dbfs. But my RME interface says -12 dbfs at the input stage. I can handle this as long I know the numbers of each unit. My Gyraf G SSL clone.?? First of all it has no manual with this I have no idea how hard I can hit the input stage. In this case what would you do? Staying at -18 dbfs RMS? THX in advance H. It's important to understand that plugins and hardware react differently to overloading. Plugins are more likely to have a "hard" limit where distortion becomes 100% barely over this limit. Hardware will react with an increasing distortion to a point, if the design is robust enough. I use almost no plugins at all, and mostly hardware. I push levels until distortion and then back off a couple dB, unless the distortion sounds good, then I keep going! Also, a dirty secret in the world of electronics.. The published numbers are rarely accurate. They are usually "weighted" and "adjusted" to seem better than they are. I wouldn't bet money or my life that the levels are accurate.. Ok you use your ears more often than a meter? Mh for me it was tricky when I first read about it 8 years ago, and it is still tricky. I never heard true distortion from the g ssl when pushing the input, may I try harder next time. LOL
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Post by svart on Jan 8, 2016 17:39:11 GMT -6
It's important to understand that plugins and hardware react differently to overloading. Plugins are more likely to have a "hard" limit where distortion becomes 100% barely over this limit. Hardware will react with an increasing distortion to a point, if the design is robust enough. I use almost no plugins at all, and mostly hardware. I push levels until distortion and then back off a couple dB, unless the distortion sounds good, then I keep going! Also, a dirty secret in the world of electronics.. The published numbers are rarely accurate. They are usually "weighted" and "adjusted" to seem better than they are. I wouldn't bet money or my life that the levels are accurate.. Ok you use your ears more often than a meter? Mh for me it was tricky when I first read about it 8 years ago, and it is still tricky. I never heard true distortion from the g ssl when pushing the input, may I try harder next time. LOL I would say I've gotten used to how the meters relate to the level of sound, and how much I can push each piece of gear before it sounds bad. I suppose you can say that I've found the "sweet spots" for each piece for the most part. So I use a combination of ears, eyes and feeling when setting everything, but it's a learning process, just like how to set up microphones.. Sometimes doing something crazy and "wrong" can make something sound "right". Overall, don't worry about what other people do, you'll need to find your own happy place when mixing.
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Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2016 19:26:29 GMT -6
Intresting svart . I just still see one problem with levels, special in a hybrid setup. Lets say 0 VU is set @- 18 dbfs RMS For example: UAD manual says most of thier plugs have the sweetspot there, but 33609 has it -12 to - 20 dbfs. Now my console has 0 at - 18 dbfs. But my RME interface says -12 dbfs at the input stage. I can handle this as long I know the numbers of each unit. My Gyraf G SSL clone.?? First of all it has no manual with this I have no idea how hard I can hit the input stage. In this case what would you do? Staying at -18 dbfs RMS? THX in advance H. It's important to understand that plugins and hardware react differently to overloading. Plugins are more likely to have a "hard" limit where distortion becomes 100% barely over this limit. Hardware will react with an increasing distortion to a point, if the design is robust enough. I use almost no plugins at all, and mostly hardware. I push levels until distortion and then back off a couple dB, unless the distortion sounds good, then I keep going! Also, a dirty secret in the world of electronics.. The published numbers are rarely accurate. They are usually "weighted" and "adjusted" to seem better than they are. I wouldn't bet money or my life that the levels are accurate.. Same here, you have to know digital and analog are different and use your ears because manufactures sometimes lie, and sometimes they set meters low to keep you out of trouble. This is a case where you can only know what's bad by pushing it till you get in trouble! Don't tell my kid!
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Post by tasteliketape on Jan 8, 2016 20:48:53 GMT -6
Ok Ericn and Svart I get what you Guys are saying about the sweet spot but don't you still need to keep level in the Daw low to keep from running out of headroom at mix time ? One thing I have noticed for instance this kik drum I'm working on sure sounds better when pushed in the daw like at the top of the meter in yellow most of the time
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Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2016 21:04:08 GMT -6
Ok this is the hard part in digital, you have to maximize your headroom push your levels as close to zero without going over. Part of the skill is knowing before the mix is knowing where and how much you can much push. The easy and safe solution is keep it low, but to low you can lower the actual bit resolution. For those who learned on tape it was a very long strange trip.
So what's my advice? Solution? Simple, push it ! fail ! Fall flat on your face, learn from it! You have to learn how you can push a mix and when to pull back its that simple and that hard. The secret ingredient in this sauce is your instincts!
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 8, 2016 22:56:26 GMT -6
Ok this is the hard part in digital, you have to maximize your headroom push your levels as close to zero without going over. Part of the skill is knowing before the mix is knowing where and how much you can much push. The easy and safe solution is keep it low, but to low you can lower the actual bit resolution. For those who learned on tape it was a very long strange trip. So what's my advice? Solution? Simple, push it ! fail ! Fall flat on your face, learn from it! You have to learn how you can push a mix and when to pull back its that simple and that hard. The secret ingredient in this sauce is your instincts! I would leave headroom on the ITB mixbus as well, otherwise someone tends to overload the mix-bus plug ins. It happend at least to me with the, push it near to 0 dbfs, advise. Peaking at -12 dbfs kills 4 bits. I push at the output of the last mix bus plug in before bouncing and ad a 24 bit dither before it leaves the 32 bit daw. But during the mix I leave enough headrom to not have always an eye on the 2 bus.
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Post by Ward on Jan 9, 2016 9:22:37 GMT -6
You don't always HAVE to get your final mix output level to -0.01db either, you know, you can leave something for the mastering engineer to do!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 9, 2016 9:49:12 GMT -6
This makes me wish I could go back in time and track a dozen songs all over again. Man, I can barely muster up the nerve to go back and remix at different levels. I'd need two weeks with nothing else to do. Ugh..
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 9, 2016 9:53:37 GMT -6
Ok this is the hard part in digital, you have to maximize your headroom push your levels as close to zero without going over. Part of the skill is knowing before the mix is knowing where and how much you can much push. The easy and safe solution is keep it low, but to low you can lower the actual bit resolution. For those who learned on tape it was a very long strange trip. So what's my advice? Solution? Simple, push it ! fail ! Fall flat on your face, learn from it! You have to learn how you can push a mix and when to pull back its that simple and that hard. The secret ingredient in this sauce is your instincts! This can be a source of contention on the interwebs, but I'm pretty sure bit depth is a function of "footroom", not "headroom", my suggestion is follow the converter manufacturers advice as to levels, no need to push if your at a -100db S/N ratio, ur hardware is more important for gain staging noise and managing HR.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 9, 2016 13:41:15 GMT -6
Ok this is the hard part in digital, you have to maximize your headroom push your levels as close to zero without going over. Part of the skill is knowing before the mix is knowing where and how much you can much push. The easy and safe solution is keep it low, but to low you can lower the actual bit resolution. For those who learned on tape it was a very long strange trip. So what's my advice? Solution? Simple, push it ! fail ! Fall flat on your face, learn from it! You have to learn how you can push a mix and when to pull back its that simple and that hard. The secret ingredient in this sauce is your instincts! This can be a source of contention on the interwebs, but I'm pretty sure bit depth is a function of "footroom", not "headroom", my suggestion is follow the converter manufacturers advice as to levels, no need to push if your at a -100db S/N ratio, ur hardware is more important for gain staging noise and managing HR. Yes it is because it envolves math and the argument against is ideally that with 24 but it is insignificant, but that is based on still hiring a certain level. Of course the guys who taught me the importance of this were a guy from a chip manufacturer a guy who designs Motorola DSP and a guy who programs DSP for a defense application! Playing with recording Solo piano at different max levels of the same track and anayais confirmed it for me!
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