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Post by Guitar on Dec 9, 2015 17:23:40 GMT -6
There's no accounting for taste. I think that's the bottom line in this type of discussion.
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Dec 9, 2015 18:03:44 GMT -6
Ughhhh. Im sorry but the whole idea of "the musicianship of yesterday has been replaced by pro tools tricks and gimmics" is nothing but ignorant BS! You're not looking in the right places. DIG DEEPER! I assume I am younger than alot of you guys on here, but I grew up on classic rock. Love Zep, the Who, Queen, Beatles etc.... But I could sit here for hours posting videos of modern guys who could technically make Page look like lil wayne with an out of tune squier. But thats not what its about right? So Ill leave you with this. Heres a new young unsigned local Long Island group I just stumbled upon. They sound like a cool mix of jazz, progressive metal and rnb. Watch this one and tell me there's no more REAL musicians out there!
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Post by mobeach on Dec 9, 2015 18:12:19 GMT -6
Ughhhh. Im sorry but the whole idea of "the musicianship of yesterday has been replaced by pro tools tricks and gimmics" is nothing but ignorant BS! You're not looking in the right places. DIG DEEPER! Dream Theater is proof that some newer bands kick total ass.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 9, 2015 18:20:25 GMT -6
I think there are two huge, often overlooked reasons for music in the last half of the twentieth century being utterly amazing in the United States.
1. The best of Europe's musicians fled WW2 for the U.S. 2. The armed forces trained a multitude of band musicians and let them keep their instruments when they came home.
These people became our symphonic/broadcast/movie/recording players and our music teachers.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 9, 2015 18:32:27 GMT -6
I don't mind the music you posted, but being "practiced" and being talented are two different things. I don't hear anything musically in these tracks from the guitar players that comes close to what Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend, Richards/Taylor, Walsh/Felder, The Edge, etc. did. I guess if "rock history" started with Green Day you'd have an argument. Thankfully, it didn't. Maybe what you're missing is the guitar player stepping on the light box and soloing over fogs and strobe lights. I guess I'm just more interested in the song as a whole than the guitar parts. If you'd like, I can find some more interesting guitar-related songs. In fact, here's two quick songs with the singer/guitarist from Into It. Over It. playing bass. One was recorded on to tape with two other songs over the course of a weekend and the other is a live track so you can see another song like it happening live: If you dig even slightly into the indie rock world you'll find a lot of guitar trickery, fingerpickery, and drum slickery. Many bands are just not motivated to put it out front and center these days. I'm sorry schmalzy. I don't usually post about people's music, because it's subjective and I don't like internet arguments, but it was the rock and roll history that made me want to post. So, since you didn't like my post I regret posting, but hopefully we can make something good of it. If you listen to any of the arrangements of the guitar players I mentioned in their recorded work, they are hardly soloing over fog and strobe light types of arrangements. They are carefully thought out and executed. The good thing though is that in the history of rock and roll we've graduated from Green Day back into the 80's hair bands. So, perhaps we can acknowledge that the players I listened were most definitely not hair band players and deserve more respect for their accomplishments. I hope there's no hard feeling? Frank
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 9, 2015 20:55:23 GMT -6
Maybe what you're missing is the guitar player stepping on the light box and soloing over fogs and strobe lights. I guess I'm just more interested in the song as a whole than the guitar parts. If you'd like, I can find some more interesting guitar-related songs. In fact, here's two quick songs with the singer/guitarist from Into It. Over It. playing bass. One was recorded on to tape with two other songs over the course of a weekend and the other is a live track so you can see another song like it happening live: If you dig even slightly into the indie rock world you'll find a lot of guitar trickery, fingerpickery, and drum slickery. Many bands are just not motivated to put it out front and center these days. I'm sorry schmalzy. I don't usually post about people's music, because it's subjective and I don't like internet arguments, but it was the rock and roll history that made me want to post. So, since you didn't like my post I regret posting, but hopefully we can make something good of it. If you listen to any of the arrangements of the guitar players I mentioned in their recorded work, they are hardly soloing over fog and strobe light types of arrangements. They are carefully thought out and executed. The good thing though is that in the history of rock and roll we've graduated from Green Day back into the 80's hair bands. So, perhaps we can acknowledge that the players I listened were most definitely not hair band players and deserve more respect for their accomplishments. I hope there's no hard feeling? Frank No worries, man! I think I came off as a little more harsh than I intended - bonkers days at work might do that to me some times. Apologies from my end. I think our momentary impasse comes from the dismissal of the "younger" stuff as lesser-than. You've discounted a whole generation of musicians by suggesting there's a very firm congruence between anything uptempo and rocky made by people under 40 and Green Day - a pointed insult that I think we can all agree you intended as such. I'd say all of these specific artists are much more influence by Nirvana, Pearl Jam, REM, Smashing Pumpkins and Failure than Green Day. I don't for a second disparage what the people you've suggested have done. I only dismissed them as hacky strobes-and-fog players to thrust a similar barb as your Green Day quip. I worshipped and endlessly studied that now-deemed "classic rock" stuff for quite a while. I poured over Page, Townsend, et al. I credit them with my move away from drums and into guitar playing. I think the point I'm making is this: Perhaps we can acknowledge that the players I listed were most definitely not uneducated, absent-minded, talentless nothing players. They are musicians who carefully think through their arrangements, execute their parts well, and deserve more respect for their accomplishments. They're not selling millions of records but they also get no cash advance, no tour support, little to no promotion, pay for their own recordings, are making a living in a musical economic climate that doesn't want to pay them for their work, and are doing it with as much love and skill as the guys you mentioned. Just because their taste in what they like to do doesn't line up with your taste doesn't mean they aren't as legitimate as the people who musically rub you the right way. Side note: No hard feelings from my side. I don't do that stuff. I also don't think I'm capable right now of not sounding aggressive (annoying day at work and now I'm editing some actual less-talented musicians' takes into useable tracks). Sorry if I'm coming off as a pushy jerk. I certainly don't mean to and I think these discussions are super interesting and helpful.
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Post by lpedrum on Dec 9, 2015 21:01:07 GMT -6
Ughhhh. Im sorry but the whole idea of "the musicianship of yesterday has been replaced by pro tools tricks and gimmics" is nothing but ignorant BS! You're not looking in the right places. DIG DEEPER! I assume I am younger than alot of you guys on here, but I grew up on classic rock. Love Zep, the Who, Queen, Beatles etc.... But I could sit here for hours posting videos of modern guys who could technically make Page look like lil wayne with an out of tune squier. But thats not what its about right? So Ill leave you with this. Heres a new young unsigned local Long Island group I just stumbled upon. They sound like a cool mix of jazz, progressive metal and rnb. Watch this one and tell me there's no more REAL musicians out there! I don't think anyone here is saying that great music can't be made today--I certainly hope so because that's what a lot of us are trying to do everyday. What IS different about these times is that the top sellers are often way less talented than the top acts of yesteryear. The 2nd half of the twentieth century was a uniquely special time for recorded music, and music was a more powerful force in the culture. But I love a number of newer acts and the talent is out there. I did chuckle though when you posted a Donny Hathaway cover as your proof that good music is still happening. Surely you see the irony?
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 9, 2015 21:09:10 GMT -6
An interesting but maybe off point anecdote, we released a new single this week. A few dudes and some journalists from around have been like "It's great, loads of room sound! Sounds like you guys just rocking the f*ck out!". Then the drummer got a message today to the line of "The songs are great, but the production is all wrong, you guys should pump some money into the recording of these to get them sounding professional".
What I mean to say is - even within a paradigm as narrow as indie rock, what is production? What is a good production? What is the end goal of recording music, even? Why do recording engineers email my drummer?
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Post by ericn on Dec 9, 2015 22:30:16 GMT -6
An interesting but maybe off point anecdote, we released a new single this week. A few dudes and some journalists from around have been like "It's great, loads of room sound! Sounds like you guys just rocking the f*ck out!". Then the drummer got a message today to the line of "The songs are great, but the production is all wrong, you guys should pump some money into the recording of these to get them sounding professional". What I mean to say is - even within a paradigm as narrow as indie rock, what is production? What is a good production? What is the end goal of recording music, even? Why do recording engineers email my drummer? The problem is pretty simple , The masses define professional production as what they hear on the radio! Example Adam( auto-tune)Levine is a "expert judge of vocal technice because they put him on a TV show! The measure of excellence is what we are told is good !
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 9, 2015 22:36:15 GMT -6
Rant starts here; Of course it is subjective, and yes this is JMO, but those first linked tunes are nothing more than slightly more complex greenday arrangements, and IMO are emblematic of the back to back seamless interchangeability of dynamics free rock bands of the last 15years, they also display perfectly what is so sorely lacking from most modern music. Where is the gritty believable depth, and swing stinky groove, for god sake someone GROOVE!!!!! it's vanished, everything is squared off on the 1, super soft wonder bread! todays musicians are so vanilla it's not even funny! Where is the swagtastic, ballistic overconfident competence of any of those old school cats represented in modern day music? Those old school folks were all loaded and ready to explode, now everybody's so friggin cutesie and foCONTRIVEDs, they aren't raucous, they PLAN to be raucous because a publicist or a friend said it'd be cool..., they got nothin!
To me, the single most important thing to find in any music(and i like ALL music i actually can believe in), is you have to believe and care about what the performer is saying/playing and not get bored, I'm not believing too much these days, and i'm so friggin BORED!!! lord help me I'm sooooo bored with uncreative regurgitated focus grouped modern music!! Rant ends here; lol
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Dec 10, 2015 0:49:40 GMT -6
Ughhhh. Im sorry but the whole idea of "the musicianship of yesterday has been replaced by pro tools tricks and gimmics" is nothing but ignorant BS! You're not looking in the right places. DIG DEEPER! I assume I am younger than alot of you guys on here, but I grew up on classic rock. Love Zep, the Who, Queen, Beatles etc.... But I could sit here for hours posting videos of modern guys who could technically make Page look like lil wayne with an out of tune squier. But thats not what its about right? So Ill leave you with this. Heres a new young unsigned local Long Island group I just stumbled upon. They sound like a cool mix of jazz, progressive metal and rnb. Watch this one and tell me there's no more REAL musicians out there! I don't think anyone here is saying that great music can't be made today--I certainly hope so because that's what a lot of us are trying to do everyday. What IS different about these times is that the top sellers are often way less talented than the top acts of yesteryear. The 2nd half of the twentieth century was a uniquely special time for recorded music, and music was a more powerful force in the culture. But I love a number of newer acts and the talent is out there. I did chuckle though when you posted a Donny Hathaway cover as your proof that good music is still happening. Surely you see the irony? Haha yes, I guess there is some irony there, but I was speaking more of the quality of musicians with this example. Plus, if you watch the video you would see that it's a completly original, off the wall take on somewhat of a "standard" I only used this as an example because I recently discovered it and I think it's excellent. With that said I can agree with just about everything you said. The only thing I would add is the fact that I dont think everyone in modern pop music is completly talentless. Sure there are plenty who are, but people like Christina Aguilera, Adele, Justin Timberlake, Pink, Bruno Mars, Gaga are insanely talented in there own way. And Its not just auto tune making it happen.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 10, 2015 7:20:03 GMT -6
I imagine that everyone here will hate this, but let's see what y'all think. The guitarist is also the singer. Playing some insane stuff while singing/screaming over it. tonycamphd, does this have any swag or just garbage. P.S. Country guys should take cover.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 10, 2015 7:34:13 GMT -6
An interesting but maybe off point anecdote, we released a new single this week. A few dudes and some journalists from around have been like "It's great, loads of room sound! Sounds like you guys just rocking the f*ck out!". Then the drummer got a message today to the line of "The songs are great, but the production is all wrong, you guys should pump some money into the recording of these to get them sounding professional". What I mean to say is - even within a paradigm as narrow as indie rock, what is production? What is a good production? What is the end goal of recording music, even? Why do recording engineers email my drummer? I think it sounds great. Could be louder to compete or what have you but I just turned my amp up. It's also on the dark side but everything sounds open. Kind of has an Albini production vibe. Pretty refreshing sonics, as a matter of fact. I think it's funny when people chime in like that. And you're like, uh, I wasn't asking for creative direction I was just showing you what I did.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 10, 2015 7:43:01 GMT -6
I imagine that everyone here will hate this, but let's see what y'all think. The guitarist is also the singer. Playing some insane stuff while singing/screaming over it. tonycamphd , does this have any swag or just garbage. P.S. Country guys should take cover. I call that sound "thrash." I have a disability: I can't thrash. As soon as someone's voice or guitar turns into white noise, I immediately loose interest and the groove, the note, to me it's not a pleasant sound. It just turns me off. A lot of my friends are into it though, it's certainly a popular sound right now.
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Dec 10, 2015 8:03:15 GMT -6
Rant starts here; Of course it is subjective, and yes this is JMO, but those first linked tunes are nothing more than slightly more complex greenday arrangements, and IMO are emblematic of the back to back seamless interchangeability of dynamics free rock bands of the last 15years, they also display perfectly what is so sorely lacking from most modern music. Where is the gritty believable depth, and swing stinky groove, for god sake someone GROOVE!!!!! it's vanished, everything is squared off on the 1, super soft wonder bread! todays musicians are so vanilla it's not even funny! Where is the swagtastic, ballistic overconfident competence of any of those old school cats represented in modern day music? Those old school folks were all loaded and ready to explode, now everybody's so friggin cutesie and foCONTRIVEDs, they aren't raucous, they PLAN to be raucous because a publicist or a friend said it'd be cool..., they got nothin! To me, the single most important thing to find in any music(and i like ALL music i actually can believe in), is you have to believe and care about what the performer is saying/playing and not get bored, I'm not believing too much these days, and i'm so friggin BORED!!! lord help me I'm sooooo bored with uncreative regurgitated focus grouped modern music!! Rant ends here; lol Jeez, did you have to walk to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways too? Haha You want groove? Matt Halpern of Periphery has got groove for daysssssss.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 10, 2015 9:05:02 GMT -6
I actually did walk both ways to school! haha to be clear, this is all in fun! ok then here we go..... thats not groove! haha, thats a frozen white boy having a seizure behind a drum kit , THIS is what i'm talking about, groove, weight, competence, swagger, MUSIC! how about this? A zillion and one guys think they can lay down groves like this, and all of them are completely fooling themselves...., just bust out a mic and track yourself or anyone else trying 8)
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 10, 2015 9:26:54 GMT -6
nothing more than slightly more complex greenday arrangements Just a couple quick thoughts: Green Day arrangements were nothing more than slightly tweaked Michael Jackson arrangements....and those were nothing more than slightly more complex Hollies, Turtles, Elvis, and (some) Beatles arrangements. I 100% understand the sentiment you have about the music speaking to you. If something doesn't speak to you then you definitely can't really be moved by it and it seems very boring. You mention you'd like to see more dynamics and you're missing the "swagtastic, ballistic overconfident competence" of yesteryear's artists. Most rock bands today are operating in the backlash of the era of the "clean verse/distorted chorus" thing that was overdone for much too long. I hear stuff with large dynamic swings and it feels contrived to me. It sounds like an announcer saying: "from the audio hook that brought you Nirvana, Weezer, Blur, and Soundgarden: These Guys!" It feels like they couldn't put together something cohesive. Many newer artists are also operating in exactly the opposite headspace and life experience from the people who did the "swagtastic, ballistic overconfident competence" of yesteryear. Of course you won't hear it. It's hard to be honest about your experience as a confident, fully-realized human if people are taking your music for free and club owners are making you to pay to play. The most important part of art is honesty. Their experience isn't the same experience the previous generations had so of course their attitude is not going to be the same. I hear "Pinball Wizard" and I can't relate (I don't think Townsend likes it either. He calls it "the most clumsy piece of writing [he'd] ever done."). I hear "Black Dog" and the riff and structure is cool but I can't related to "Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way / Watch your honey drip, cant keep away." I hear "I'm not catering to anyone anymore. This is it; you've got me" and I can relate 100%. There is a crop of newer artists who ARE doing "swagtastic, ballistic overconfident competence" thing. Many are hip hop guys - some of which are very good but they still don't move me.
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Post by mobeach on Dec 10, 2015 10:12:08 GMT -6
I imagine that everyone here will hate this, but let's see what y'all think. The guitarist is also the singer. Playing some insane stuff while singing/screaming over it. tonycamphd , does this have any swag or just garbage. P.S. Country guys should take cover. I call that sound "thrash." I have a disability: I can't thrash. As soon as someone's voice or guitar turns into white noise, I immediately loose interest and the groove, the note, to me it's not a pleasant sound. It just turns me off. A lot of my friends are into it though, it's certainly a popular sound right now. I generally like this kind of stuff but in this case there's that high pitched "something" in the mix I found agitating, maybe a guitar with a Parapedal? Oops I quoted the wrong person, shoulda been aimed at jcoutu1
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Post by swurveman on Dec 10, 2015 10:18:02 GMT -6
I think the point I'm making is this: Perhaps we can acknowledge that the players I listed were most definitely not uneducated, absent-minded, talentless nothing players. They are musicians who carefully think through their arrangements, execute their parts well, and deserve more respect for their accomplishments. They're not selling millions of records but they also get no cash advance, no tour support, little to no promotion, pay for their own recordings, are making a living in a musical economic climate that doesn't want to pay them for their work, and are doing it with as much love and skill as the guys you mentioned. Just because their taste in what they like to do doesn't line up with your taste doesn't mean they aren't as legitimate as the people who musically rub you the right way. Side note: No hard feelings from my side. I don't do that stuff. I also don't think I'm capable right now of not sounding aggressive (annoying day at work and now I'm editing some actual less-talented musicians' takes into useable tracks). Sorry if I'm coming off as a pushy jerk. I certainly don't mean to and I think these discussions are super interesting and helpful. No problems schmalzy. I admire that people take on the challenge of trying to be a band full time. I wish these bands well. The smartest thing I've ever read about how to manage a band's direction was that Pete Townshend knew his audience so well, and knowing them so well, he wrote music for them expressing their thoughts and feelings in a way that satisfied them. Similarly, the Eagles Hotel California captured the zeitgeist of Los Angeles (and some would say large parts of America) in the 70's. So, hopefully the bands you're thinking about and enjoy have an audience that they know very well, and are translating for them their life experience through their music. If their audience is big enough and the band's songs intensely tap into their audience's life experience they have a chance to be successful.
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Post by drbill on Dec 10, 2015 11:01:26 GMT -6
Just a couple quick thoughts: Green Day arrangements were nothing more than slightly tweaked Michael Jackson arrangements....and those were nothing more than slightly more complex Hollies, Turtles, Elvis, and (some) Beatles arrangements. Uh, maybe you could be more specific and/or give some examples. I just don't see that. Not even in the slightest, even most tiniest way.....
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Post by mobeach on Dec 10, 2015 13:54:08 GMT -6
My original post here was in regard to their "sound" very different than today's bands. All vintage gear does have an impact on that. You can buy all these modern analog or tube units but unless you're going onto tape the end result won't be the same.
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Post by drbill on Dec 10, 2015 14:13:02 GMT -6
My original post here was in regard to their "sound" very different than today's bands. All vintage gear does have an impact on that. You can buy all these modern analog or tube units but unless you're going onto tape the end result won't be the same. IMO - "tape" is not the main defining factor. Style and production techniques, players all in the room together, arranging styles, microphone bleed, restricted track count, no DAW "fixing", the "headspace" of the musicians of that era and lack of LFAC's - all combined - make far more of a difference than "tape". Because projects recorded to tape in 2015 don't sound like those records either. So.....IMO, tape is not the sole defining difference. This is a much more complex issue than throwing "tape" or any other gear based equation at the problem...
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Post by mobeach on Dec 10, 2015 14:22:12 GMT -6
My original post here was in regard to their "sound" very different than today's bands. All vintage gear does have an impact on that. You can buy all these modern analog or tube units but unless you're going onto tape the end result won't be the same. IMO - "tape" is not the main defining factor. Style and production techniques, players all in the room together, arranging styles, microphone bleed, restricted track count, no DAW "fixing", the "headspace" of the musicians of that era and lack of LFAC's - all combined - make far more of a difference than "tape". Because projects recorded to tape in 2015 don't sound like those records either. So.....IMO, tape is not the sole defining difference. This is a much more complex issue than throwing "tape" or any other gear based equation at the problem... There's no question that all the bands of yesterday had a completely different aura about it. Less production is definitely one of them. The Beatles first album was recorded in a day if I remember correctly. Their music had a signature warmth to it.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 10, 2015 15:45:55 GMT -6
One of the biggest problems today is label people believing there is a "contemporary sound" that is necessary. They tend to get so hung up in what they fear is wrong that they ignore what's right.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 10, 2015 16:57:51 GMT -6
this is a great discussion
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