|
|
Post by mikec on May 1, 2016 8:02:07 GMT -6
I'm an admitted novice to using the 2Bus+ but according to the Dangerous website it is active summing. I am monitoring through the D-Box and then printing the summed signal from the 2Bus+ back into a stereo track in the DAW. I've also been experimenting inserting my stereo matched pair of Retro Powerstrips into the 2Bus+ ext insert path for some eq and color. Just wish my day job that helps me pay for all of this left me more time to work with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on May 1, 2016 13:48:40 GMT -6
Is there a certain number of tracks where things start to go downhill ? Like over 16 and things start to get compromised ?
|
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on May 1, 2016 15:10:17 GMT -6
Summing gets thrown around way too much as a savior. I used to believe only in it and I had 16 channels of summing via 2 BLA PM8's. While I liked being about to use the knobs for fade, volume and mute it wasn't until I took the summing mixers out that I realized I might have been mistaken. You can go through all my older posts from a year or so ago and I was staunch on believing it was the only way to get the sound of a console, but in reality there just wasn't a massive difference when I would pull them out. I had some bills to pay and I needed to unload some gear and the only thing I could part with at that time was my summing mixers, so I didn't really have a choice. Well, I can tell you my mixes sound just as good if not better without them. The reason you would want a console is because of the imperfections it produces. There is crosstalk between channels, the channels themselves are unique so it's almost like when you're stacking guitars and if you played the stack with the same amp/guitar/settings/arrangement it's not going to sound as open and pure as it would if you used an entirely different setup and arrangement, a console is similar to this. Also, the master section of a console where the channels are summed and boosted creates it's own imperfections, but these imperfections, if it's a good quality console, will allow things like the bass to feel more dead center and more space for it, the channels when panned will feel more like you're actually doing something because of the extremely small delays in the strips going to the booster section and in some consoles you have transformer coloration on the inputs, letting you hit them differently to add harmonic content if you want. Now, a simple passive summing mixer that consists of a resistor network feeding into what is nothing more than a line booster just isn't going to do the same thing a console will. I worked on an SSL6000e for most of my career at this and nothing I've ever used besides other large format consoles gave me that same feeling. I thought the summing was getting me there, but honestly I was living in denial. If you want to do something for your 2 buss find a pair of Capi VP28's that were built at the same time, get a killer 2 channel A/D and do as you suggested, run your mix through them and find the best relationship between the input and channel fader level that causes you to feel something. I hate recanting all those bold statements I made about those summing mixers, but I have to because it's true. Now, I do believe SSL makes a rack mixer that I've heard a lot of people I would trust say is as close to mixing on a console as you are going to get without the console. They're pretty expensive and you could find a D&R or a Soundcraft that can be modded and then you'd be living in the true console world, but on this date, I just can't say that summing mixers provide this massive change in the way a mix sounds as an actual console does. This is a well thought out and TRUE response, IMO. Imperfection is why we like summing. It's why I like it anyway. If you are, (or dealing with) subpar musicians like I myself am, then summing acts as "make up" to minimize those imperfections. It's a melting pot of sorts that blends things more naturally. Time (firing time) is the issue here. Does it work? You bet your ass it does. Milliseconds matter. And thats why we love consoles. Imperfection. Top musicians do this naturally by ear. They have the chops for it. Digital doesn't bother them. I myself rely on a console to help "gel" my mixes. I'm not top. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2016 15:21:26 GMT -6
Does the dbus have passive outs as well as active outs? It would be interesting to compare using the dbus amp vs some vp28s. Also, are you listening to the dbus converter or thru something else? Unless you're recording the output of the dbus back in to the daw, no one else will hear what you're hearing when the track is released in terms of dbus mojo. Of course. Recording the summing output back through the Burl onto a print channel. Then, adding mastering to that and reprinting to a final channel. Then exporting that track without touching the daw summing. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2016 15:24:10 GMT -6
Summing gets thrown around way too much as a savior. I used to believe only in it and I had 16 channels of summing via 2 BLA PM8's. While I liked being about to use the knobs for fade, volume and mute it wasn't until I took the summing mixers out that I realized I might have been mistaken. You can go through all my older posts from a year or so ago and I was staunch on believing it was the only way to get the sound of a console, but in reality there just wasn't a massive difference when I would pull them out. I had some bills to pay and I needed to unload some gear and the only thing I could part with at that time was my summing mixers, so I didn't really have a choice. Well, I can tell you my mixes sound just as good if not better without them. The reason you would want a console is because of the imperfections it produces. There is crosstalk between channels, the channels themselves are unique so it's almost like when you're stacking guitars and if you played the stack with the same amp/guitar/settings/arrangement it's not going to sound as open and pure as it would if you used an entirely different setup and arrangement, a console is similar to this. Also, the master section of a console where the channels are summed and boosted creates it's own imperfections, but these imperfections, if it's a good quality console, will allow things like the bass to feel more dead center and more space for it, the channels when panned will feel more like you're actually doing something because of the extremely small delays in the strips going to the booster section and in some consoles you have transformer coloration on the inputs, letting you hit them differently to add harmonic content if you want. Now, a simple passive summing mixer that consists of a resistor network feeding into what is nothing more than a line booster just isn't going to do the same thing a console will. I worked on an SSL6000e for most of my career at this and nothing I've ever used besides other large format consoles gave me that same feeling. I thought the summing was getting me there, but honestly I was living in denial. If you want to do something for your 2 buss find a pair of Capi VP28's that were built at the same time, get a killer 2 channel A/D and do as you suggested, run your mix through them and find the best relationship between the input and channel fader level that causes you to feel something. I hate recanting all those bold statements I made about those summing mixers, but I have to because it's true. Now, I do believe SSL makes a rack mixer that I've heard a lot of people I would trust say is as close to mixing on a console as you are going to get without the console. They're pretty expensive and you could find a D&R or a Soundcraft that can be modded and then you'd be living in the true console world, but on this date, I just can't say that summing mixers provide this massive change in the way a mix sounds as an actual console does. This is a well thought out and TRUE response, IMO. Imperfection is why we like summing. It's why I like it anyway. If you are, (or dealing with) subpar musicians like I myself am, then summing acts as "make up" to minimize those imperfections. It's a melting pot of sorts that blends things more naturally. Time (firing time) is the issue here. Does it work? You bet your ass it does. Milliseconds matter. And thats why we love consoles. Imperfection. Top musicians do this naturally by ear. They have the chops for it. Digital doesn't bother them. I myself rely on a console to help "gel" my mixes. I'm not top. Not so sure great musicians are making thins sound analog...They too sound like great musicians mixed inside the box when they're mixed inside the box. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2016 15:30:52 GMT -6
Actually re-reading Jerome's post. As much as I love the capi stuff, just slapping a pair on the 2-bus does NOT do the same thing as going through the summing mixer. At least not in my experiences. I do however think he's right that maybe it's the phase relationship in analog summing that might cause the width and separation. I would imagine if you had 8 pairs of vp28's that you could run 8 stereo channels out through, it would sound awesome.
|
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on May 1, 2016 15:42:49 GMT -6
This is a well thought out and TRUE response, IMO. Imperfection is why we like summing. It's why I like it anyway. If you are, (or dealing with) subpar musicians like I myself am, then summing acts as "make up" to minimize those imperfections. It's a melting pot of sorts that blends things more naturally. Time (firing time) is the issue here. Does it work? You bet your ass it does. Milliseconds matter. And thats why we love consoles. Imperfection. Top musicians do this naturally by ear. They have the chops for it. Digital doesn't bother them. I myself rely on a console to help "gel" my mixes. I'm not top. Not so sure great musicians are making thins sound analog...They too sound like great musicians mixed inside the box when they're mixed inside the box. Well "analog" is not the point from my post. It's time. Timing is the issue here and that is surely a consideration when choosing musicians. Hell I don't even know what "analog" sounds like. I do know for a fact that my console is screwed up in time though. Each channel is slightly different in firing time. That helps. Most people call this smear. But it could be called magic just the same. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2016 16:46:49 GMT -6
I think we're saying the same thing...slight phase differences in analog channels.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on May 1, 2016 18:09:27 GMT -6
As much as I love the capi stuff, just slapping a pair on the 2-bus does NOT do the same thing as going through the summing mixer. At least not in my experiences. I'm sure it sounds different than the Dangerous. If one is really interested, try a passive summer like a Fulcrom into the VP28 for makeup gain, vs. a similarly gain staged pair of VP28's by themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on May 1, 2016 19:55:22 GMT -6
Actually re-reading Jerome's post. As much as I love the capi stuff, just slapping a pair on the 2-bus does NOT do the same thing as going through the summing mixer. At least not in my experiences. I do however think he's right that maybe it's the phase relationship in analog summing that might cause the width and separation. I would imagine if you had 8 pairs of vp28's that you could run 8 stereo channels out through, it would sound awesome. I was trying to make summing mixers sound like an SSL or at least close to it and that just isn't going to happen, but I did convince myself I was kinda close, until I took them off. The VP28's are there to just add color and euphoria. I have them set so I can hit them soft or knock them hard, and that at least takes some of the sterile out of plain jane ITB. And there's a gel that's really amazing with them, not too clean, not too murky, just euphoric. I don't know if you've ever spread a mix across an API, Harrison, Trident, SSL etc. but it just does something. The work flow... the speed.... the open sound, the low-end effortlessly coming off that buss, it's beautiful when you're in full out mixing mode. I think I just am a guy that was raised on it and how wonderful it would be if I had the space, money for upkeep and a loving soul to give me one, but that's not realistic and it's just too damn hard to do these days, too many recalls and the whole workflow has changed now. But John, you and I both know a cat in town that puts songs regularly into the top 50 and he offline bounces his mixes to clients... fully ITB and is really becoming one of the go to guys for what's on the radio at this point in time. So there's that too. Just my .02pennies |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2016 20:06:20 GMT -6
Well yeah, spreading a mix across a console will sound better. Grass is green and water is wet. lol. But I definitely hear an improvement in summing outside the box as compared to ITB...and that's with just 8 channels.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on May 1, 2016 20:16:45 GMT -6
Is there a certain number of tracks where things start to go downhill ? Like over 16 and things start to get compromised ? thats a loaded question, and it totally depends on how you use it, but generally not a problem on a great console that's well designed with good head room, if you're on mediocre/just get by kinda gear, then yes, but generally the more channels you sum, the larger the benefit from an image solidity standpoint IME, my rig is being set up for outboard summing banks of 8 for passive stereo bussing, where they'll be returned/make up gained to pairs on my console and then summed to the stereo buss.... for what is essentially double summing I guess, I'm a huge proponent for stereo subs being re collected at the 2, it really gives you the ability to compartmentalize individual aspects of the image by instruments, vs the hard to shake vaguity(not a word 8) aspect of ITB summing, of course JME. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on May 1, 2016 20:42:21 GMT -6
Not so sure great musicians are making thins sound analog...They too sound like great musicians mixed inside the box when they're mixed inside the box. Well "analog" is not the point from my post. It's time. Timing is the issue here and that is surely a consideration when choosing musicians. Hell I don't even know what "analog" sounds like. I do know for a fact that my console is screwed up in time though. Each channel is slightly different in firing time. That helps. Most people call this smear. But it could be called magic just the same. hey Cowboy, i think your a pretty darn good all around player player! Don't be so hard on yourself! anyway, JMV, but it seems there has been this idea put forward that analog slows things down with imperfections vs the perfection of ITB(maybe i'm misunderstanding in this threads context? but i've heard it plenty elsewhere), but it's actually the opposite, all the calculations in the daw create latency and errors that lag time, and then get rounded off to the nearest sample/bit(truncation), voltage summing and all acts in the analog domain happen at almost the speed of light! so slowed down it is not. As far as summing overall, as an experiment, try dropping everything OTB to your console once, with no moves made ITB whatsoever, treating everything with hardware inserts on the console, and then buss to stereo subs on the console, then apply your 2 buss style compression on the subs, and leave the 2 buss naked, then recapture off the 2, and i promise you there is a very large difference in the sonics as compared to summing ITB, vivid imaging is way easier to achieve, and much more tangible via voltage summing ime. so i'd say the benefits of summing do not come in half measures, slapping something on the 2 buss at the end can be very good, but it is not the same. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on May 1, 2016 20:56:48 GMT -6
In the meantime I can say that I like my analog summed mixes way more.
Special for the reason that they seem to have a more stable phantom-middle.
|
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 3, 2016 5:50:58 GMT -6
well porkyman, 5 months later.. what'd you go with?
|
|
|
|
Post by porkyman on May 3, 2016 19:01:21 GMT -6
well porkyman, 5 months later.. what'd you go with? i started with an old studiomaster 16 x 4. i liked it but it wasnt modular and was really hard to work on so i moved on to a soundcraft delta. modular. definitely easier to work on but i found all i ever did was work on it and had stopped making music. plus it took up a lot of room and had 48 inputs and i only had 16 dac. from there i decided i didnt want a console. too big. too much work so i got the burl summing mixer. i didnt think it did enough for the price. i actually didnt like what it did at all even if it was cheap so i went on to the spl mixdream xp. i liked it. had no reason to change except i came across a really good deal on a phoenix audio nicerizer mk2. i frickn love this thing. it was not even one i considered because it came out so long ago i was under the illusion that everything that came after it was an upgrade. could not have been more wrong. a couple things ive learned along my journey. 1. first and foremost. definitely worth it. between this and finally finding a room verb i can use (t-verb) i think i might actually see a light at the end of the tunnel. 2. the more you saturate things the narrower they become. i think its probably because most of the energy is in the middle so its really only the middle thats getting "excited," increasing rms and inversely lowering the sides. if that makes sense. thats why the nicerizer has the stereo spreader. its vitally important imo. 3. i dont have a real grasp on gain staging. i never learned it. you really dont find it anywhere on youtube tutorials. along the way i also picked up a burl b2 adc. it wasnt until i got the nicerizer that i started to understand both how/why to use analog gear and why burl gets so much praise... in a nutshell, if youre not hitting your gear hard, youre not using your gear right. the input level on the burl is key. without it you cant really get all the beef out of your gear. you need some kind of attenuation before the converters. thats why so many top guys i read say they werent really able to print their music until they got the burl. imo its because they were so used to hitting everything as hard as they wanted and letting the tape smooth it out. they werent able to capture that because of digital clipping. now with the burl im able to push the nicerizer as hard as i can and let the burls trafos do the work of tape. its such a big difference, i cant even over exaggerate it. the amount of low end coming out of that thing is just insane. i have to filter everything now where i was boosting before. 4. there is no way in the world you can slap one of these summers on the end of a mix and expect to learn anything at all. these shootouts you see are worse than useless. worse because they might steer you in the wrong direction. you have to mix into them and get a feel for them before you can know anything at all. i am in love with the nicerizer. i just keep loving it more and more as i get to know it better. the best thing is, ive finally run out of excuses. i cant blame the gear anymore. its all on me and the song and i got a little passion back i had been missing. id be 100% content EXCEPT!!! there is this thing in the back of my head called the Heritage Audio MCM32. its really four 8 channel active summing mixers passively summed down into one. $3500ish. its the exact box i have designed in my head except mine has different flavors for each. api, neve, neuman, and clean. Michael Brauer style summing in one box. i honestly dont understand why no one has ever done it... anyways. hope this helps somebody. good luck..  |
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 3, 2016 20:23:45 GMT -6
This is probably the most honest summing conclusion I have ever seen.
It makes sense though. Granted, I will be researching a nicerizer until bedtime now!
The approach you took with the burl pushing the trannies is interesting as well! One hell of an expensive journey though!
Thanks for the update.
|
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 3, 2016 20:47:56 GMT -6
Wow,from what I see, between op amps, trafos, wiring, case, even in a diy setting 1200 without labor to make a single one, cost dropping with bulk obviously. Certainly a piece where you are getting what you pay for, which is something I look for in gear I buy whole! The work alone is crazy for that. I see 2k-2500 a reasonable cost to sell what they offer. Blown away.
|
|
|
|
Post by noah shain on May 3, 2016 23:49:09 GMT -6
Is there a certain number of tracks where things start to go downhill ? Like over 16 and things start to get compromised ? thats a loaded question, and it totally depends on how you use it, but generally not a problem on a great console that's well designed with good head room, if you're on mediocre/just get by kinda gear, then yes, but generally the more channels you sum, the larger the benefit from an image solidity standpoint IME, my rig is being set up for outboard summing banks of 8 for passive stereo bussing, where they'll be returned/make up gained to pairs on my console and then summed to the stereo buss.... for what is essentially double summing I guess, I'm a huge proponent for stereo subs being re collected at the 2, it really gives you the ability to compartmentalize individual aspects of the image by instruments, vs the hard to shake vaguity(not a word 8) aspect of ITB summing, of course JME. This rules. I been doing a similar thing for a few years. I had 8 passive summing busses at one time. I have 4 now. 2 folcroms and 2 gas audio sigmas. I also use a tonelux otb 16. I use outboard pres and land them on the console at line level. Then inserts. Then they go to ACA sub groups before the 2 bus. Then there's the insert at the 2 bus. It's a lot of SL red dots and various transformers. I also have a pile of 1:1 transformers that I can insert or drive in to. They got tt cables on em so I can put em anywhere on the patch bay. All of that is to say...I'm a big fan of summing otb. Passive and active, but I'm doing a lot more than just summing. All of THAT is to say...when you're mixing on an SSL you are going through a LOT of damned chips. Man that thing is FULL of em. Same on discreet consoles except it's not chips. Either way it's a lot of amp stages. So summing...yes. Amps and transformers...yes. Sum and sum and sum again. Jim Williams is gonna cut me in twain. ;-) No doubt I deserve it. My mixes are dark and wooly. I keep getting in trouble for it. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on May 4, 2016 0:25:50 GMT -6
thats a loaded question, and it totally depends on how you use it, but generally not a problem on a great console that's well designed with good head room, if you're on mediocre/just get by kinda gear, then yes, but generally the more channels you sum, the larger the benefit from an image solidity standpoint IME, my rig is being set up for outboard summing banks of 8 for passive stereo bussing, where they'll be returned/make up gained to pairs on my console and then summed to the stereo buss.... for what is essentially double summing I guess, I'm a huge proponent for stereo subs being re collected at the 2, it really gives you the ability to compartmentalize individual aspects of the image by instruments, vs the hard to shake vaguity(not a word 8) aspect of ITB summing, of course JME. This rules. I been doing a similar thing for a few years. I had 8 passive summing busses at one time. I have 4 now. 2 folcroms and 2 gas audio sigmas. I also use a tonelux otb 16. I use outboard pres and land them on the console at line level. Then inserts. Then they go to ACA sub groups before the 2 bus. Then there's the insert at the 2 bus. It's a lot of SL red dots and various transformers. I also have a pile of 1:1 transformers that I can insert or drive in to. They got tt cables on em so I can put em anywhere on the patch bay. All of that is to say...I'm a big fan of summing otb. Passive and active, but I'm doing a lot more than just summing. All of THAT is to say...when you're mixing on an SSL you are going through a LOT of damned chips. Man that thing is FULL of em. Same on discreet consoles except it's not chips. Either way it's a lot of amp stages. So summing...yes. Amps and transformers...yes. Sum and sum and sum again. Jim Williams is gonna cut me in twain. ;-) No doubt I deserve it. My mixes are dark and wooly. I keep getting in trouble for it. Awesome! I definitely subscribe to the Jim Williams school, BUT I also love the old school vibes, and dirt can be a beautiful thing, either way, IMO, sub groups are just the ticket to making a band sound like a "band" coming out of two speakers, clean or dirty. |
|
