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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 21, 2015 15:17:42 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 23, 2015 18:05:18 GMT -6
Hey,
Continuing to research woofers/drivers. Curiously, the new amphion one 16 use, I believe, an older seas woofer the L18rnxp.
It is a 6.5 inch driver and that monitor comes with a same sized passive radiator.
But my paradigm monitor box is pre cut for a larger 7.5-8 inch woofer so I can at least consider a larger seas driver and possibly its Excel line: W22ex-001. I recall Svart preferring more bass than the one sixteen provide but also his preference is not for passive radiator design.
Yes more money, but if I stuff my old monitors with the seas excel speakers with cross overs appear to be about half the price of a new set of amphions.
My paradigm box has a 2x3 inch port so I could tune that depending on the box alignment.
I have the exterior dimensions how does this equate to the volume and or cubic feet measurement .
I looked at those nht speakers but they are asking $760 usd a pair, plus crossovers and of course they are older. It looks like I can buy new seas excel woofers, tweaters and crossovers for around $870 usd.
Can any of you characterize the sound difference between the aluminium and manganese or how does excel outperform prestige ?
Thx !
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 23, 2015 22:41:56 GMT -6
uhh, not trying to crack wise, and I know you've taken steps toward a passive speaker, but why not just buy the Avantone Abbey's, and be done with it? I seriously doubt anything you build will touch them, they're at your price point, three way, and are 400 watts/near/mid field, with a warranty. I hear the mix, not the speakers.
My favorite stereo speakers are by Avalon Acoustics. A close friend had a $14,000 pair, (they're the cheaper ones), and a $28,000 pair. I helped him choose them, and listened to music on them endlessly. I preferred the $14,000 pair. I swear, my Abbey's remind me of them every day. The low end is so similar, I think I'm listening to the Avalon's sometimes.
Less time building = more time tracking ;-)
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 23, 2015 23:42:22 GMT -6
A speaker with a built in amp is never going to touch a high Q stand alone amp with passive speakers, think about it, secondly, unless ur a serious badass speaker designer on the level of Troles, or Wayne at pi etc... forget about stuffing ur old speaker boxes with different drivers, great speakers/crossovers are very much a system, and unless u know an awful lot about design, ur just shooting blindly in the dark adding random drivers to existing crossovers, I highly recommend a pro pre designed system, with a paper/pulp driver for great articulation and accuracy. Polypropylene and aluminum are great, but not in the same league for a mixing monitor imv
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 24, 2015 5:09:21 GMT -6
Hey Martin, I thought seriously about the abbeys as I know you are pleased with them but my die was cast when I bought the used adcam and had Jim mod it; in for a penny in for a pound  . I hear you Tony, actually Madisound and Solen both offer you driver and system advice so that is what I am sharing with you but they both wanted to identify drivers that would fit in my pre existing box first and then move on to cross design. Madisound also offers a complete diy high quality kit for sound treatment , wiring etc.. They both sell the scan speak driver and it is certainly a legitimate Finnish firm; I am just goin up my learning curve . I carefully read all of svart's thread as it happened and I have had a number of email conversations with hanssi at amphion and our thread friend Ericn. . I also built a kit years ago so am not really flying blind If you are interested ,see attachment for the plots of the two Scan speak drivers recommended by Madisound. I will either buy an amphion set or a system as recommended by either Madisound or Solen. LEAP-P21W020-R26048330.pdf (335.95 KB) Thx ! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 24, 2015 8:34:39 GMT -6
I'd have to agree that separating speakers and amps is likely better than built ins, and speakers are indeed a system, and often, a complicated one, manufacturing wise.
So using your old speakers and putting in higher end parts would probably be a big mistake I think. Brilliant engineers who design speakers agonize for years over how best to integrate components at price points, redesigning dozens of times along the way, and still are rarely satisfied.
It seems like you need to find a way to get the Amphions you wanted, or just use that amp for some other purpose, or sell it, much as that would sting, and live happily with the something more affordable like the Abbey's.
Since I haven't heard the Amphions, I can't say for sure, but the only speaker I've heard yet that topped the Abbey was the ATC's, and they cost $8,000 !
It's an Adcom you had Jim mod, correct kcat?
I happily used an Adcom power amp for years in my old home studio. Not trying to rain on your parade at all, but that said, I never once saw one in a great studio, for whatever that's worth.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 24, 2015 9:00:35 GMT -6
The proac knocks I'm building have the scan speak papernpulp in them, I'd bet those will be a very good choice for u, filling up a less than perfect room with lots of spl is not what I would do, my room is very very well treated, but I'm sticking with 2 ways for the accuracy, then I'll be able to switch a sub in and out along with big room monitors to rock the house, looking for both from a single set of speakers....hmmm I'm not too sure about that...?
good plan(but beware)on getting help from Madisound, been there done that, cost my brother a lot of money to be unhappy, the sale always comes first, my brother spent $5k and didn't get where he wanted to go based on madisound/Brian and another guys advice, some of that advice was good, some had me scratching my head when my bro sent it to me to review it for him.
I'd build the studio 101 2 ways I linked above, then build some 4 pi's for a secondary set of BOOMS!!
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 24, 2015 11:25:37 GMT -6
all good advice, the speaker and cross over information gives a good sense of performance and ya spot on Tony I am not trying to build mid field monitors. I thought about those nht but $800 us plus crossovers plus shipping etc, got me thinking about just rolling my own. my preference is to just buy some amphion, but all the la2a chatter on this site got me trying to stretch my budget, as usual . the funny thing about monitors is how quickly we accommodate them Shane and Tony a while back recommended that i just monitor at lower levels so as not to excite the room so much and I do. I am also thinking that upgrading the paradigms could end up as simply as a very nice stereo system too. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 16:26:06 GMT -6
They both sell the scan speak driver and it is certainly a legitimate Finnish firm; I am just goin up my learning curve . Just to correct it as a sidenote, Scan-Speak is located in the mid-west of Denmark. (And Seas is located in Norway.) Very high quality loudspeaker drivers manufacturers with excellent reputation, founded in 1970 (resp. 1950). |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 24, 2015 17:16:38 GMT -6
Thanks SBF, interesting in a picture of a driver that was labelled as a Scan -_Soeak it was stamped made in Finnland, maybe it was part of the speaker chassis and or frame materials ? Yes the all scan-speak option is attractive and it makes a woofer that fits my cut out perfectly with the appropriate x over they would be somewhat stuff and and play |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 18:48:00 GMT -6
Thanks SBF, interesting in a picture of a driver that was labelled as a Scan -_Soeak it was stamped made in Finnland, maybe it was part of the speaker chassis and or frame materials ? This is most certainly the label of a supplier for this part of the speaker. Scan-Speak surely use prefabricated components and don't do all metalworks etc.. They are into driver design, material selection, prototype building, measurement, assembly, coating etc... and QC of course. And they do cooperate with design partners in the fields of material technology. I read at least from an american company i can't remember the name. But i guess metal parts and magnets are too expensive to be shipped intercontinental and therefore be made in europe. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 25, 2015 7:18:38 GMT -6
Freq graph of the scan speak classic woofer and discovery dome tweeter and madisound xover; loks like about +- 2-3 db ?  |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 26, 2015 21:18:08 GMT -6
Do a google search for free speaker box software so you can model freq response Phase and a few other things !
Honestly building a new box based on drivers even if you only have basic skills is going to be easier and better than trying to make new drivers work in a old box !
Look at some of the Solen, Madisound Trols or Zaph kits
Driver matching is an art ! Been there done that !
Solen and Madisound can design great crossovers but realize high voltage parts means large +- tolerance so even an expertly modeled cross can need tweaking ! Most systems I built were biamped because I could tweet at very little $$
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 6, 2015 6:13:48 GMT -6
Hey, I will have 2 pairs of amphion ariving today for an inhome evaluation, th one 15 and one 18 ( like Johnkenn's), basic difference is a 5.5 inch vs 6.5 inch woofer, same tweeter and both passive radiator and all Seas drivers. I am very curious to hear how these aluminum drivers sound. But based on the recomendations here, I have also finalized 2 differetn diy kits both Zaph's and avaiable from Madisound, the basid difference is kind of old school reed paper woofer adn soft dome tweeter ( sort of a poor man s proac 100) vs aluminum drivers, both kits use very good seas drivers. The kits all in with crossovers and buidling materials will be aroudn $600 usd, the amphions are between $2-3,000 usd. ( they have the passive radiator and fancy wave guide etc). I am of course leaning towards the kits . So my question is, was wondering what people's experience are with good more traditional 2 way design and paper woofer vs newer material ( aluminum). Where I live we have high moisitrue content in the summer months adn I have read that the paper woofers can absorb the mositure but I don't know how significant this is ? Final note I am really looking forward to hearing my Jim William modded adcam through the amphion. I also have the amphion cables as part of the evaluation. |
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