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Post by b1 on Oct 6, 2015 17:02:55 GMT -6
There's something about cables, knobs, and faders that's appealing. I don't think about moving around with that flow, but when I reach for a mouse, it's like my mind idles down to another level. I guess because I work on computers too much. It seems like it should be one or the other, but then I think about things you can do to manipulate sound on a 'puter and I don't think about a mouse anymore, I think about audio instead... weird.
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Post by M57 on Oct 6, 2015 17:19:28 GMT -6
It's a pain reaching for a mouse... no way I want to travel 2 more feet to screen... It's no more of a pain to reach for a real fader if you do it right and place the screen is where a board once was, right in front of you at a slight incline. - Not to mention that it'll be entirely configurable with different skins, plugs and DAWs, etc - AND you can spill your beer on it. It'll be a no-brainer once large touch-screens are commonplace and affordable.
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Post by b1 on Oct 6, 2015 17:37:03 GMT -6
I need mechanical things in front of me. Plus, my 27" screens seem too small. I need bigger AND higher resolution AND to be away from it a ways. Don't think I would enjoy sitting on top of a screen without a real 3-D work surface in front of me. To feel, touch, and manipulate just seems to fulfill something inside... Touching a screen seems like kissing through glass or something, lol.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 6, 2015 17:59:19 GMT -6
^ that's the same reason i didn't like the Neyrink VControl stuff, even tho I bought the full version (for $50 smh). rendered obsolute when Logic X came out and had Logic Remote bundled with it for free. also rendered useless when I got some Euphonix MCMixes and an MCControl lol
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Post by M57 on Oct 6, 2015 18:06:17 GMT -6
I need mechanical things in front of me. Plus, my 27" screens seem too small. I need bigger AND higher resolution AND to be away from it a ways. Don't think I would enjoy sitting on top of a screen without a real 3-D work surface in front of me. To feel, touch, and manipulate just seems to fulfill something inside... Touching a screen seems like kissing through glass or something, lol. All great points; you're clearly old school. Suffice it to say, a good number of the next generation of engineers will have been raised touching nothing but glass. RL stuff will likely make no sense to them from a work-flow perspective. 27" may seem too small, but remember - with a swipe you can be looking at a yet another bank of faders ..without having to reach or move over. Honestly, my aged eyes have trouble reading the labels on my racked gear. - A nicely backlit screen - not to mention being able to pinch in and out - or oversize plugs - makes working with a screen preferable on a number of levels. My monitor is a 27", and I have to say - it just looks like it would be damn close to the right size ..maybe a 30 or 31 would be perfect. I wouldn't want to reach much further than the edges of a 31 to get to my cab sauv.
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Post by donr on Oct 6, 2015 18:21:45 GMT -6
I thought the original Raven at NAMM was too big. The demos required reaching like you would on a large-ish physical console, but with no knob or switch for your fingers to grab on when you reached seemed ergonometrically unsound. I think I could get used to a touchscreen mixer, but the surface would have to be compact enough to avoid stretching to trace a fingertip.
A touchscreen for a control surface and another conventional monitor for additional visual info would seem to be a viable way to go. The Slate mixer and plug-in software seems functional in the latest MTi demo for that purpose.
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Post by b1 on Oct 6, 2015 18:32:09 GMT -6
I need mechanical things in front of me. Plus, my 27" screens seem too small. I need bigger AND higher resolution AND to be away from it a ways. Don't think I would enjoy sitting on top of a screen without a real 3-D work surface in front of me. To feel, touch, and manipulate just seems to fulfill something inside... Touching a screen seems like kissing through glass or something, lol. All great points; you're clearly old school. Suffice it to say, a good number of the next generation of engineers will have been raised touching nothing but glass. RL stuff will likely make no sense to them from a work-flow perspective. 27" may seem too small, but remember - with a swipe you can be looking at a yet another bank of faders ..without having to reach or move over. Honestly, my aged eyes have trouble reading the labels on my racked gear. - A nicely backlit screen - not to mention being able to pinch in and out - or oversize plugs - makes working with a screen preferable on a number of levels. My monitor is a 27", and I have to say - it just looks like it would be damn close to the right size ..maybe a 30 or 31 would be perfect. I wouldn't want to reach much further than the edges of a 31 to get to my cab sauv. Points taken... When I look at a control surface and a virtual one, I gravitate to the real one. To each his own, and rightly so. To me everything sets the mood. Controlled lighting reflecting in the right places and others areas dark just draws me in - inviting... An amps jewel lamp reflecting into a guitar fret board. It's inspirational for some reason. I think one of the biggest turn-offs for a digital console is the fader banks. I like to just look up/over and see everything as it is. Old school, probably. But I do like tech in the right place and proper proportions...
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Post by EmRR on Oct 6, 2015 21:21:09 GMT -6
Have you driven something like the Yamaha QL1 which is combo touch screen and hardware mix controller? There's a lot of things you are only gonna do on the touchscreen, and it's pretty small. 27" is big, parts scroll here and there, I don't see a problem. The analog mixer I sit at while straining my neck to one side to see the iMac is much larger.
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Post by b1 on Oct 7, 2015 3:17:53 GMT -6
Have you driven something like the Yamaha QL1 which is combo touch screen and hardware mix controller? There's a lot of things you are only gonna do on the touchscreen, and it's pretty small. 27" is big, parts scroll here and there, I don't see a problem. The analog mixer I sit at while straining my neck to one side to see the iMac is much larger. I've never had my hands on one. It looks interesting in that you touch to switch screens and have a physical mini controller off to the right (if that's in fact the way it works), whereas the screen is more for visual feed-back. But, there's that screen layering thing which seems less "romantic". I don't have a tablet or anything that uses a stylus/finger for input. My old digital mixer has a small non-touch screen for feedback and menu layers all controlled by physical knobs and buttons, which made me sure that I didn't want to go farther into menu layers or touch a screen. And that setup, though it's been useful for certain things, has spurred me to go more analog on the front-end. I guess I'll be the last hold-out for a 100% digital screen setup. It seems some of us "can" and some "can't".
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Post by rickcarson on Oct 7, 2015 6:34:30 GMT -6
The fact of the matter is that it didnt have to go down this way and they did a disservice to there customers. I dont see them cutting the cost of the MTX in half??? It was a bad move by them and they lost a customer.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 7, 2015 9:50:53 GMT -6
My old digital mixer has a small non-touch screen for feedback and menu layers all controlled by physical knobs and buttons, which made me sure that I didn't want to go farther into menu layers or touch a screen. We went from Yamaha LS9's (non-touchscreen) which are laid out very much like QL1's (touchscreen), and the touchscreen makes all aspects better, faster, and less frustrating. They went with an interesting mix of things that don't work on the touchscreen, things you can select there but must change with a controller. When I get back on an LS9 it drives me nuts, much slower to navigate. A well integrated touchscreen for DAW would only speed up the workflow. Long session days will render my hand/arm useless and numb, even switching between trackball, trackpad, and mouse to spread the number of positions. Ergonomics from that point should be greatly enhanced. So long as it works well!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 7, 2015 11:05:07 GMT -6
From day one when I saw these, I considered it just another big mouse. D Commands are all over the used market as well. But anyway, my main concern had nothing to do with it's usefulness or wether it was solid. The elephant on the room is you'd be putting a big damn tv right up in the way of your listening field. I can't see how doing that wouldn't adversely affect the whole purpose of mixing. Am I wrong? Somebody with one of these chime in please.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 7, 2015 11:34:35 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,082
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Post by ericn on Oct 7, 2015 11:55:49 GMT -6
I have always thought a touch with faders ala Randy's SMART would be perfect but as with the RAVEN no Eucon ! My hunch is that is part of what drove Slate to try for a lower price point!
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Post by EmRR on Oct 7, 2015 12:32:57 GMT -6
as someone said somewhere, no one gets to do eucon.
you could argue they sit at a better angle for reflection than most consoles.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,082
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Post by ericn on Oct 7, 2015 20:39:18 GMT -6
as someone said somewhere, no one gets to do eucon. you could argue they sit at a better angle for reflection than most consoles. Yeah I know I was just talking to a Gear pimp I respect and the subject of the Raven came up and how many times the lack of Eucon has been the deal breaker!
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Post by M57 on Oct 8, 2015 4:30:12 GMT -6
as someone said somewhere, no one gets to do eucon. you could argue they sit at a better angle for reflection than most consoles. Yeah I know I was just talking to a Gear pimp I respect and the subject of the Raven came up and how many times the lack of Eucon has been the deal breaker! So this is where the Neyfi comes in, right? If so, then yep, it's a clear deal-breaker.
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Post by jayson on Oct 8, 2015 6:12:55 GMT -6
I could see jumping to something like this at some point, but from where I sit 27" at 1080 just ain't enough desktop real estate. If they could up the resolution to a 2560x1440 it would be a no-brainer in my world, but after the last few years at 2560 and a 32" screen there's no way the tactile aspect would be enough to lure me away- I NEED that extra space. Seems to me that you don't lose much by waiting; these systems will get increasingly better from a feature standpoint and less expensive as time goes on. I don't really see buying into now just so I can ride the upgrade train later...although I have to admit the instant gratification siren song is pretty potent with this thing.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 8, 2015 8:50:22 GMT -6
I only watched the DP video, and there the elements appear custom sized for the screen resolution. I don't know that it's a problem.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 8, 2015 9:14:43 GMT -6
I bet if it was compatible with a mouse, you'd end up using the mouse 90% of the time. One little wrist move versus moving your whole arm, thousands of times? How long before you get some kind of joint pain.
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Post by M57 on Oct 8, 2015 12:50:07 GMT -6
I bet if it was compatible with a mouse, you'd end up using the mouse 90% of the time. One little wrist move versus moving your whole arm, thousands of times? How long before you get some kind of joint pain. Makes you wonder how people got along before there were mouses ..reaching their whole arms across a real board and executing the same motions thousands of times.
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Post by ragan on Oct 8, 2015 13:18:04 GMT -6
Seems to me it would be far better, from a joint health perspective, to do a bunch of varied motions (like you would on a real console) rather than the exact same little stationary wrist motion (mouse).
Im no expert of course but I've done physical work all my life and have had a few injuries. Every physical therapist I've seen says varied motion is always better on the body than one repitive motion.
Doesn't mean I want a Raven of course but I would bet it's better on your body, as a real desk would be.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 8, 2015 14:06:38 GMT -6
The raven is more like mixing on a console than with a mouse. The small raven I think allows six simultaneous actions and the larger raven 10-12. As yo dial in your workflwo and batch commands; its programming capacities could certainly create efficiencies. It may or may not appeal to you but slate went through a lot of design considerations before settling on the current version, angles etc.. Personally I like the idea of the raven cus I hate the mouse, but I didn't hate the mouse $2500 usd and I don't hate the mouse $999 usd either I notice you can't rent nad/or subscribe to them. That would be interesting to have one for 4- 6 weeks and then decide: gimmick or got to have ?
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Post by EmRR on Oct 8, 2015 14:57:09 GMT -6
I still hate the mouse / track pad / track ball. Required for lots of editing work. Doesn't seem like that would change much with a touchscreen. All the stuff one used to do on a console would be far better on a touchscreen, unless you are so new to this that you never ran a console.
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Post by b1 on Oct 8, 2015 15:28:53 GMT -6
My mouse hand used to go numb a lot. Even switching hands didn't matter; they both did it. But, I eventually realized there was an angle/bend in my wrist. I picked up a large desk from a bank a while back that has a lower tray for the keyboard and mouse, with a cut-away in the desk surface for access. I put a sheet of tempered glass over the cut-away for the keyboard and have the mouse in the lower tray. Using that setup, there's no bend in my wrist and ever since no numbness, unless my upper back area slouches over (several injuries in the past). I think if you're conscious of posture and ergonomics, a lot of trouble can be alleviated. But thinking about using a mouse, it's like a small rudder that steers a large ship, with much "leverage" in small movement.
Some people stand up and work. That may help the upper body, but some of us with back trouble can't bear standing for long. I guess folks need to find that happy medium. Maybe a combination of things. Just something to think about...
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