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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 28, 2015 14:29:58 GMT -6
The best place to use isolation transformers is on your computer!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 14:35:36 GMT -6
Back on topic and the original thread question... I DO think, audiophiles are hearing something different, than we do. Let me explain my point of view. Hearing has alot to do with information interpretation in your brain. Example: A cochlear implant hearing training study found out, that a group of clients that just listened to music did not have significant progress in learning to hear i.e. actual hearing did not improve against a group that was trained to hear positions of instruments, instrument frequencies and similar, which actually improved hearing alot. So, hearing is highly dependend on what you learned to listen at and how to interprete the information. Audiophiles often have their own terms of describing their emotions while hearing. If we discuss things like stereo image and depth, they would associate some metaphoric terms that basically say the same, but widely includes emotional aspects that are highly subjective. It's somehow like reading the same story as written by an investigational journalist or a euphoric poet.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 14:38:23 GMT -6
The best place to use isolation transformers is on your computer! Yes, the 2 800va's i have are for the digital stuff, the 2,400va's for the console and power amp will have no filtering on them.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 14:40:21 GMT -6
tonycamphd, did you look for industry EMI/RFI filters instead of expensive transformers? IMO these basically act both as filters, but at totally different price points...Just saying... got both small, the transformers are balanced, the legs are split 60v+60v, common mode rejection for days, with less fear of fry voltage per leg, your 1/2 of the planet is a little scary, but not as much as 240 straight up! 8)
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 14:41:09 GMT -6
BTW, that's what they use for the mains of the intensive care unit, together with some medical grade power outlets, that seem to have a sturdier and tighter connection... I would not think these expensive transformers would yield any additional benefits...balanced power=common mode rejection of noise of the supply legs. www.equitech.com/articles/articles.html
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 14:46:59 GMT -6
Yes. So it is actually noise filtering. I mean, this is the aspect that counts, isn't it? Isolation transformers are very expensive filters.... ;-)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 14:50:10 GMT -6
Hmm, I'm gathering my little Monster cable power strip I plug my computer into doesn't an isolation transformer. Do I need something else, or does my power strip protect what needs protecting? In many audiophile magazines, there are terms to describe sound that at first seem vague, at best, but over time, you begin to see what a particular review means. I've certainly learned to recognize things about audio I wasn't aware of, so our listening abilities have the potential to evolve. Some things are incredibly obvious though. Here's a page from Analog Planet, where the host published 4 sound files, each one of a different vinyl release of the Stone's Sticky Fingers. If you can't hear which one sounds better, you're in the wrong business: www.analogplanet.com/content/sticky-fingers-deluxe-edition-any-good#mFVLwHO2Z4dTULYO.97
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 15:06:02 GMT -6
Hmm, I'm gathering my little Monster cable power strip I plug my computer into doesn't an isolation transformer. Do I need something else, or does my power strip protect what needs protecting? Your power strip most likely acts as a surge protector. This should prevent damage to your computer because of transient spikes of voltage, like from lightning... The isolation transformer should do something different, prevent the noise coming from your computer with all it's high frequency stuff, switcher power supply etc. to pollute the mains. So instead of filter all the audio stuff, it is more effective to prevent/isolate noise at the source...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 15:12:38 GMT -6
Y'now, I've been wondering for a while no, since I got my new monitors, I've noticed a kind of high pitched whine, like dirty air hissing by. I think this is from the computer. Is there an inexpensive cure?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 15:18:30 GMT -6
Btw. drops and interrupts can, in rare occasions, also damage the computer. An uninterruptable power supply is quite expensive for what it does, but if you ever encounter problems with drops in voltage from the mains, these can save your work. These are almost always also surge protectors. I used one when i did a freelance computer job. Time is money and better safe than sorry...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 15:25:25 GMT -6
Y'now, I've been wondering for a while no, since I got my new monitors, I've noticed a kind of high pitched whine, like dirty air hissing by. I think this is from the computer. Is there an inexpensive cure? This comes most likely from the cheap high voltage psu in the monitor. These are really cheap psu's even in expensive monitors. Unfortunately changing a monitor psu 1:1 does not guarantee that you are better off with the new one, it's trying if you have a noiseless one, they are all build cheap.... Often, monitors are not easy to disassemble, their psu's are prone to fail due to heat issues after a while, and this is known by the manufacturers. Intended, you can say....should not last a lifetime, ya'know? EDIT: Ah, sorry Martin John Butler. I did read it wrongly. Took monitors for displays, sorry. You can try a cheap filter that is actually a magnet/ferrite in a plastic tube that can be clipped on the mains cable. SOMETIMES this already does the trick, these thingies are very cheap. Sorry i don't know the english word for them....
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 28, 2015 15:39:16 GMT -6
Surge protectors are great at showing where the lightening strike went. Look it went thru the surge protector thru my gear thru my computer etc. The only way to protect gear from lightening is to unplug it from the outlet. I have some horror stories fixing electronics's after lightening strikes most of the time it involves putting expensive cards in the bin and in some cases the whole backing frames and harnesses
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Post by b1 on Aug 28, 2015 15:54:07 GMT -6
Yeah, surge protectors are useless against lightening. Don't just flip the switch on the computer PSU - unplug it. Same with everything else. These are great for mobile solutions, where you don't know what kind of crazy electrical system you're connecting to on location. They're equally useful for studio usage. Just connect your sound gear into it and leave the 'puter as is. Furman PL-PRO C (20A w/Voltmeter) - $375.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPROCFurman PL-PRO DMC (20A w/Voltmeter/Ammeter) - $440.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPRODMC
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Post by b1 on Aug 28, 2015 15:55:56 GMT -6
Instead of spending around 20 bucks for the 20 Amp adapter, just put a dual use 20 amp duplex receptacle in the wall.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 28, 2015 16:05:46 GMT -6
Isolation transformers let you wire the room AC balanced. You have + and - 60 volts in place of 120 volts and neutral. That will common mode cancel a lot of the room power supply hum and also reduces the 60/120 hz hum picked up by guitar pickups. Even the outboard transformers won't buzz anymore. If you really want to clean up your room, remove/shut off all the cell phones.
Audio/pedophile shows are always fun to visit, if you bring your own material to play back. Sometimes you hear new stuff. When you are done you can tell them "that's the best reproduction of a 25 cent TL072 opamp I ever heard".
I use some 'high end' IEC AC cables here. I've tried a few out over the years. Some made a difference, some did not. One was a $500 cable Ray Kimber sent me. It had a large lump in the middle, it looked like a snake that had dinner. It 'tilted' the playback response bass heavy. There was some sort of polymer in that cable. He had some others that were balanced sounding, other than the larger low end and clearer tops. My AP could not measure these differences but everyone in the room heard them.
8 feet out of a commercial AC outlet through a cable should not make any difference. But it did. Ray has a set of higher quality AC conduit cable for any electricians that want to wire their walls with the better stuff. He doesn't make that wire but did the research.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 16:18:22 GMT -6
Ehm, surge protectors are not completely useless against lightning, they are/should be the 3rd and last level of lightning protection. If one before fails, it is mostly useless. Right. Depending on how near the impact of a lightning, chances increase your equipment gets seriously damaged. A surge protection, however, is better than none. But...ideally the surge protection should have a melting fuse. Those without one can seriously heat up and actually *cause* fire.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 16:37:30 GMT -6
Hold on to ur hat mjb, I may have a very good option for u soon to aquire a balance PSU very cheaply that will provide u with very great bang for ur buck.
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Post by wiz on Aug 28, 2015 16:43:58 GMT -6
Yeah, surge protectors are useless against lightening. Don't just flip the switch on the computer PSU - unplug it. Same with everything else. These are great for mobile solutions, where you don't know what kind of crazy electrical system you're connecting to on location. They're equally useful for studio usage. Just connect your sound gear into it and leave the 'puter as is. Furman PL-PRO C (20A w/Voltmeter) - $375.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPROCFurman PL-PRO DMC (20A w/Voltmeter/Ammeter) - $440.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPRODMCMy plug, comes out of the wall every night. ... that is not a euphanism 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 16:49:00 GMT -6
Jim Williams said,"8 feet out of a commercial AC outlet through a cable should not make any difference. But it did",
Well, that's what I was talkin' about. I might not even be at odds with Tony if we had a complete understanding of why :-)
Thanks for thinking of me Tony. This post got me wondering that if I had a Mac Mini, instead of my iMac that sits in the middle of my speakers, would it reduce this hiss I hear. I could put the little mac mini away from the rest of the system, or is it mainly the monitor itself?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 16:50:05 GMT -6
Yeah, surge protectors are useless against lightening. Don't just flip the switch on the computer PSU - unplug it. Same with everything else. These are great for mobile solutions, where you don't know what kind of crazy electrical system you're connecting to on location. They're equally useful for studio usage. Just connect your sound gear into it and leave the 'puter as is. Furman PL-PRO C (20A w/Voltmeter) - $375.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPROCFurman PL-PRO DMC (20A w/Voltmeter/Ammeter) - $440.00 www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PLPRODMCMy plug, comes out of the wall every night. ... that is not a euphanism 8) cheers Wiz Is too!
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Post by b1 on Aug 28, 2015 16:50:35 GMT -6
I agree Wiz. Good call! Everything stays unplugged here until put to use. It's easy to get in the habit of leaving it plugged and a storm blow through while you're gone.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 28, 2015 17:01:32 GMT -6
Great thread, so many good posts.
I've been plagued by super tasting and very critical hearing for a long time. I'm glad for it but it's also unpleasant when something is off.
One of the strangest arguments online is people telling other people they can or can't hear things like conversion, or summing mixers, or even op amps. To some people it's bleedingly obvious, but then you get these other dudes saying oh, you all are insane nobody can hear anything like that.
The Audiophile takes it to the next level where even the true audio fanatics are skeptical of their claims of what they can hear. You know the magic creams and crystal beads and whatnot. The cable thing is clearly in the realm of possible differences being made.
I love the argument that the musicians and producers never even intended this type of listening, and are using Tube Screamer op amps and affordable recorders or whatever. I think that's good support for the author's observation that the audiophile system itself is really its own pursuit, almost separate from music altogether, to the point of ignoring art, and just playing stuff that sounds good acoustically. I can relate to that as a sound gear nerd, and someone who has seen a lot of noise music performances. Sometimes there really is just beauty in sound and it's not so much about your favorite bands. I think that's a part of good production values in recording, especially tracking and mixing. Yeah the audiophile world is really not so alien or apart from the studio world.
Sometimes my friends that listen on $5 Goodwill speakers tell me I'm strange, but really I would say the same about them. It's hard to communicate with someone like that, with no experience or interest in proper sound reproduction. Good sound makes me comfortable, bad sound the opposite. Clearly though the audiophile-inclined among us are in the minority, like the super tasters. I don't even think that many people on earth truly love music, I mean truly. In the end it's all art and it's all done out of love, I hope. These kinds of things can be maddening sometimes but that's part of the process.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 17:17:39 GMT -6
Jim Williams said,"8 feet out of a commercial AC outlet through a cable should not make any difference. But it did", Well, that's what I was talkin' about. I might not even be at odds with Tony if we had a complete understanding of why :-) Thanks for thinking of me Tony. This post got me wondering that if I had a Mac Mini, instead of my iMac that sits in the middle of my speakers, would it reduce this hiss I hear. I could put the little mac mini away from the rest of the system, or is it mainly the monitor itself? See Firetruck/garden hose, I cant make myself any clearer. At best it would be a really bad investment, If you live in a NYC apartment, you are subject to every toaster, cell phone, microwave, refrigerator etc in the building, you could plug god into the outlet and it won't change anything worth anywhere near $2,000 in value! Now the smart improvements you COULD make to your situation with $2,000, would absolutely annihilate a $2,000 cable. You could get into hi quality, isolated, balanced filtered power.... and have change left over to buy some audiophile headphones. Jim is one of my audio hero's, but I'd still bet dollars to dimes that not a single person would pass a blind trying to ID the magic power cord vs a standard sufficiently rated power cord, I'd love to be a part of that test, and i'd like to film it taking place, no one could know which cord was being used, i'd eat crow if it turned out to be anything less than about 50/50.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 17:34:52 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 18:32:24 GMT -6
Well, I'll defer to Jim Williams on this one. I don't buy into blind tests for a minute, they have so many inherent flaws and biases to make them nearly meaningless. I did pass a blind test of some speaker cables once at an audiophile event, which was done under shitty circumstances. There's no way of knowing how experienced and skilled listeners taking tests are, so how could I base anything much on their results?
Also, why do so many people refuse to take into account that listening over time is greatly different than a one-off blind test. I've said time and time again, differences can reveal themselves over time, and then, the difference is as plain as a mustard stain on a black tie. Perhaps a guy who couldn't tell the difference between lamp cord and some pricey speaker wire in a blind test might discover the differences over time. Once noticed, those annoying aspects of a particular component can drive you to distraction. Remember when I said I'd timed my listening to music, and noticed I listened more often, and for longer stretches of time with certain brands. Most people haven't spent two months at a time for years doing such an unusual thing, but there were indeed differences being perceived and preferred that typically I might not have been aware of on a conscious level. To me that can translate into being able to mix well for longer periods of time, which is important to most of us, I think.
Gotta get some dinner ad walk the pooch, so I'll look at those links a little later Tony.
* just to be clear, I would never go out and buy a $2,000 power cord, unless I had a $150,000 system that included complete power conditioning. Since the one I have was a gift, I was happy to use it. The brands I like are typically $175-$250.
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