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Post by svart on Aug 12, 2015 8:30:33 GMT -6
Ok, I think I can offer some opinions here, as I think I'm the only one here who's both a professional designer, and I've designed a converter system.. There are a few different ways to skin a clock.. Top of the line is an OCXO (Oven compensated crystal oscillator) which self regulates it's own temperature in a little heated box to keep the crystal at a constant temperature and therefor frequency. This is what professional test and measurement equipment use, but the OCXO devices are typically hundreds of dollars just for the part. Layout and supporting components are critical. Most of the time in professional devices, these serve as the master clock for the whole system. Each IC that needs a different clock frequency or type will have some device either divide or multiply the master clock to the correct frequency. Dividing a frequency also divides the jitter, so it's always better. Multiplying a frequency directly will multiply the jitter, so generally a PLL is used to create a new frequency because the loop/feedback can maintain a lower jitter than multiplication alone can (but it's still higher than the master clock). I'm not aware that any audio equipment uses these. Cost is usually 100-1000$+ Next up is the TCXO (Temperature compensated crystal oscillator) which self regulates the output frequency by pushing or pulling the oscillator bias based on some type of temperature reading. It's not quite as good as the OCXO, but it's orders of magnitude cheaper, and still orders of magnitude better than a plain crystal. I know a few higher end audio devices use these. Cost: 15-100$ XO is the third, which is generally a crystal and some kind of driver circuit in a small box. Some have internal feedback to steady the frequency, but they are still pretty temperature sensitive and will move around a lot with the smallest changes in temp. Most audio devices use some variant of these. Cost: 1-50$ A plain crystal is the last. It's generally a piece of quartz between a couple wires inside of a metal can. You add a stimulus signal and the crystal itself will vibrate at a resonant frequency. The manufacturer will cut the quartz in certain ways to trim it's frequency or change the way it resonates so that you get overtones or other attributes. It's cheap and reliable for low performance applications. Only the cheapest audio devices use these, but some use them in conjunction with PLLs or something to create a low cost clock with decent performance. Cost: 0.25-20$ You also have hybrids like DPLLs which will be small PLL systems in a small package that act like a TCXO but usually offer better control and programmable abilities as well as multiple output frequencies, etc. So these are just the options for clock sources.. So as tonycamphd mentioned.. It could be as cheap as 25-50$ to put a serious clock source in place, but then you add the overhead costs (labor, stocking, placement, higher layer count PCBs, etc) and you're looking more like 50-150$ for a good clock system for a big interface design on a very wide ranging product, when you include all the subsystem and supporting parts. But then, even with those types of costs, I have to ask, why is BLA asking for 1400$ for their mods? You're looking at a few hours work and generously assume 200$ worth of parts all-in.. Assume a 50% profit margin and you're still sub 400$..
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Post by svart on Aug 12, 2015 8:33:42 GMT -6
Well a svart box and a microclockmkii would be under $1500 With SPDIF as the master, you don't need an extra clock as the incoming SPDIF signal becomes the clock source. Besides, the clock in my ADC runs circles around BLA's clocks.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 12, 2015 9:10:10 GMT -6
I passed on working on one of these. Crystal converter chips are the limiting factor. I have them here and even with top notch analog they fall far short of the sign magnitude Burrbrown converters.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 12, 2015 9:25:47 GMT -6
knowing which ones to do? and knowing what to replace them with 8) cheers Wiz Someone like Tony or Cat5 could figure that out by looking at a picture of the layouts in minutes. Comparing stock to BLAs mod that is. link to cat5's review with pics:http://gearautopsy.com/bla-finally-lets-the-lion-out-of-uas-apollo/ the new bf apollo has twice the converters so the signal paths may be doubled. I believe that bla replaces all analog parts in the circuit path; that is a lot of de adn re-soldering given this is not through hole work !
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 12, 2015 9:31:20 GMT -6
ps the mod is $700, ish, the additional cost is for the new microclock mkiii
bla offers a discount for the mkii and or mkiii if you order it with a mod I think ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 12, 2015 10:14:27 GMT -6
I passed on working on one of these. Crystal converter chips are the limiting factor. I have them here and even with top notch analog they fall far short of the sign magnitude Burrbrown converters. I advocate Jim getting into the converter game, there seems a steady market for it, and I don't think anyone has the rep for high current, accurate, clean, fast and quiet, with the ease of delivered sound, like JW does, he lives a mile or so away from me, i can tell you he is a hifi snob(in the best way), he has the crazy combo of dumbo ears and awesome electronics engineering chops, he listens extensively to what he designs, and will change everything/anything until he's satisfied and lets it out. That is exactly what most want in someone behind a converter, what ever he came up with, they would sell like hot cakes IMO. I don't know if dandeurloo is going to make available his converter comparison files he's amassed, but that comparison has proven to me, in an EXTREMELY clear way, that all converter/conversion systems are NOT created equal.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 12, 2015 10:22:24 GMT -6
ya think maybe BLA was a bit surprised by the diff? I've never seen them release comparison files to use in their marketing, and even with their plea to "use good monitoring to listen to this" disclaimer, i think you WOULD hear those diffs on an iphone speaker haha. I did hear the difference on an I phone! That said, couldn't someone take a quality outboard eq and get to the same end? All I'm hearing is a tighter bottom and mids. That can be done with eq, no? The question is for everyone btw. I think maybe you could do some things to that effect, but you'd have to have a "quality outboard eq" on every channel. Beyond that, what would be extremely hard to do, pretty much impossible IMO, is to create the near perfect silence behind the sound that is responsible for the major diffs i hear in image depth/width and dynamic range.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 12, 2015 10:33:51 GMT -6
svart "But then, even with those types of costs, I have to ask, why is BLA asking for 1400$ for their mods? You're looking at a few hours work and generously assume 200$ worth of parts all-in.. Assume a 50% profit margin and you're still sub 400$.."they are only asking $716 for the mod, the clock is separate, it does require careful desoldering of a smd board, and making higher quality/heavier through hole parts work in a delicate environment(durability= liability), so I don't begrudge them making a solid profit, and i don't think what they're asking is even a little bit unreasonable for the bang you get..., it's a bargain! They should also be rewarded beyond their labor as the company that came up with the mod as well imo. If i had an Apollo, it'd have been out the door this AM after hearing those samples, the unmodded unit reminds me of my unmodded digi 002.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 12, 2015 11:49:25 GMT -6
I'd really love to hear what Matt dizengoff has to say about this? He is the the founder of Black Lion Audio, and the beast responsible for the crazy good FM192 and digi 002 mods that made BLA a pro audio geek household name.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2015 21:14:01 GMT -6
Top of the line is an OCXO (Oven compensated crystal oscillator) which self regulates it's own temperature in a little heated box to keep the crystal at a constant temperature and therefor frequency. This is what professional test and measurement equipment use, but the OCXO devices are typically hundreds of dollars just for the part. Layout and supporting components are critical. Most of the time in professional devices, these serve as the master clock for the whole system. Each IC that needs a different clock frequency or type will have some device either divide or multiply the master clock to the correct frequency. Dividing a frequency also divides the jitter, so it's always better. Multiplying a frequency directly will multiply the jitter, so generally a PLL is used to create a new frequency because the loop/feedback can maintain a lower jitter than multiplication alone can (but it's still higher than the master clock). I'm not aware that any audio equipment uses these. Cost is usually 100-1000$+ Antelope Pure2 has the Oven (OCXO).
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Post by keymod on Aug 13, 2015 4:01:39 GMT -6
I wonder why Universal Audio don't offer "Custom Shop" versions, much like certain guitar manufacturers do?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2015 7:00:51 GMT -6
Our pal dandeurloo can speak to the relative difficulty of modding interface/converters, he's got skills, and has been putting together a seriously comprehensive comparison of a variety of conversion, modded and not. They probably don't even build the stock unit in house!
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Post by b1 on Aug 13, 2015 7:10:39 GMT -6
Our pal dandeurloo can speak to the relative difficulty of modding interface/converters, he's got skills, and has been putting together a seriously comprehensive comparison of a variety of conversion, modded and not. They probably don't even build the stock unit in house! I would be very surprised if they did...
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 14, 2015 6:50:41 GMT -6
ya think maybe BLA was a bit surprised by the diff? I've never seen them release comparison files to use in their marketing, and even with their plea to "use good monitoring to listen to this" disclaimer, i think you WOULD hear those diffs on an iphone speaker haha. I did hear the difference on an I phone! That said, couldn't someone take a quality outboard eq and get to the same end? All I'm hearing is a tighter bottom and mids. That can be done with eq, no? The question is for everyone btw. No, you can't get the same results with a eq.
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Post by RicFoxx on Aug 14, 2015 6:52:03 GMT -6
What surprises me about the Motu 16a is how good it sounds for how cheaply it feels. Even the packing is just so cheap (separate 3rd party power cord with bold letters made in china.) My honest opinion after just a little listening is the DA seems to be more listenable on the Motu and the BF Apollo, though improved, still has that thing in the mid range that seems pointy or hard (some may describe it differently.)
With that being said I sent the Motu back. Im realizing I just don't have the time to mess with a bunch of equipment anymore (2 and 3 year old) and need something to just work and be simple. The Apollo, as most of you know just has a killer workflow and is simple and that is what I need with my limited time. So I am downsizing until I can clear up some of my time. Will of course keep some of my hardware but since Im not doing this professionally, I need to tame my desire for high end gear.
Right now Im demoing the UAD plugs and trying to decide on 7 plugs. What are some of the favs for you guys???
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Post by stratboy on Aug 14, 2015 7:30:31 GMT -6
Oxford EQ, Fairchild limiters Killer Bx EQ, too
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 14, 2015 8:27:38 GMT -6
UAD must have's?
ATR-102, on every mix I have in the 2 bus. The presets are great, there's a wealth of professional calibrations. Try the 30 ips mastering preset, or Smooth Vocal, and you're golden.
EMT-140, uhh.. sounds like the EMT 140, with 3 plate sources and EQ. Unless you want a 21' plate planted in your backyard, this is the deal.
The Ocean Way is a tossup, some love it, some don't care. I haven't bought one yet, but will when the timing's right. It adds just the right pinch of real to home grown tracks.
Honorable mention, the 1073 emulation is excellent, especially if you don't own one. Some guys have other preferences, but the ATR and EMT are no brainers.
Back to the Apollo 8, I'm so sorry to hear the upgraded version is no big deal compared to the BLA mod. 've been contemplating a move to the 8 from my Duo., if the conversion was on par with the competition.
When you get one new, what plug-in promotions does it come with?
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Post by mjheck on Aug 14, 2015 8:35:42 GMT -6
If you plan on tracking with the Apollo (which is what I gather from your downsizing?) you would likely want to preview the four Unison offerings (1073, 88RS, API & 610's) and see if any of those are what you want to hear. I do track through the Apollo while printing the plugs, but have settled on using the Pultec suite almost exclusively, at least for acoustic instruments and vocals. Oddly, I just haven't been as pleased when tracking through any of the compressors, even though it seems like a no brainer. It is just harder to stay in the sweet spot than with analog compressors, and I often end up with some bite I don't want. Of course, with the Apollo routing, you can capture both a compressed and non compressed signal and decide later.
For mixing, I have their verbs and delays available in every mix - specifically the 140, 250 and the EP-34 Tape Echo (though I really dig almost all of them, including the Cooper Time Cube). While I bought the full bundle of plugs back in 2011, I don't reach for any comp or eq by default anymore - I tend to start with clean stuff like Metric Halo or Airwindows plugs, only reaching for the emulations if something is missing/needed (for instance, their DBX160 is an older plug, but sometimes is just perfect for adding harmonic distortion to bass or kick).
Lastly, some of their utility plugs work really well - the Transient Designer is ideal for removing room noise, and I like their De-esser more than others I have used.
So in summary, I would advocate a Unison preamp of your preferred flavor and the Pultec suite. That's only two, but everything else is so personal.
And, in keeping with the actual topic of this thread, I am using a BLA Modded Original Apollo Quad. While I still use an external DA (Antelope Zodiac), the BLA Mod improved the AD to the point where I use my 2192 and my Apollo about 50/50, depending on need.
MJH
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 14, 2015 8:58:56 GMT -6
Yeah, the fx are what they do best. Then a few specific newer models are ok. The 1176, la2a (you don't need it!) and the pultecs. I like the fatso as well.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 14, 2015 9:11:40 GMT -6
Yeah, the 1176's, reverbs, ATR...
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Post by stratboy on Aug 14, 2015 9:41:36 GMT -6
Yes, I forgot I use the 160 and Timecube on almost every mix on kick and BGVS respectively. I was trying to get across the idea of you using your freebies for the big, expensive plus like the high end EQ and tape Sims.
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Post by stratboy on Aug 14, 2015 9:42:06 GMT -6
And the EMTs.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 14, 2015 11:59:40 GMT -6
So, I'm sure someone mentioned it, but couldn't you just keep the Silverface Apollo, spend $800 on a Svartbox and come out cheaper and better than a new Blackface? Although you're limited to only 2 channels of the Svart AD.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 14, 2015 14:41:23 GMT -6
I think svart box sounds really good and it would compliment the Apollo.
The issue is cost the cdn dollar has tanked vs the us buck so getting a SB here would cost plus 30%
Conversely I can sell my current Apollo in usd $$
so the new Apollo is roughly half the cost net out of pocket
bottom line I don't have all the dough for the SB much as I appreciate it
it's frustrating.
All in the bla mod isn't cheap either plus exchange shipping etc.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 14, 2015 14:50:29 GMT -6
Martin a new Apollo comes with a $100 coupon and a custom bundle offer:3/399,6/799,10/? and all us plugs.
Basically any ua plug for $133.
If cat5 were on he could better describe the apollo redesign and bla has its 20% sale now.
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