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Post by swurveman on Jul 29, 2015 8:01:12 GMT -6
I've got the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer.. I've considering the L2 Ultramaximizer, but it's $400 bucks. Has anybody used both? I'd like to hear your opinion.
I've got to say this, and maybe I'm misunderstanding something. So, correct me if I'm wrong:
The claims with all these limiters is better transparency- and how one is more transparent than another-, but I listen to all these professional mixes and when the chorus kicks into a square wave I don't hear transparency of individual instruments. I hear a very loud vocal and a concrete block of mushed sound behind it. So, I wonder about spending $400.00 on any limiter, or changing from the L1, as it's clear to me that producers/mastering engineers that can buy anything are still producing undynamic square waves where there is not clarity other than a wall of loudness.
And yes, I know the loudness wars..... But I'm writing and producing Pop, where the loudness war is still a part of doing business. So, I understand it's not ideal, but I'm not gonna be uncompetitive, or ask/think that an A&R person is going to turn up the volume knob.
Thanks to anybody who has experience with the L1 and L2 and cares to comment!
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Post by svart on Jul 29, 2015 8:35:13 GMT -6
Well, not to jump into another loudness wars fight, but there is a big difference in a "concrete block of mushed sound" and a "square wave". I see all these posts talking about dynamic-less audio and "square waves" as being the same thing all the time, however they are two completely different things.
Zoom into the "block" and you'll see that it's still very sinusoidal waveforms happening. Hard clipping (AKA square waves) produces huge numbers of harmonics that manifest as the scratchy distortion we hear on OD guitars, etc, and that's not what is going on here. The point of these limiters is to gracefully but aggressively compress the dynamic range of the audio with the least amount of secondary distortion possible. This is done by tracking the dA/dt (change in amplitude over change in time) and making mathematical calculations on the change in amplitude on the fly. Even the slightest change in amplitude/time from the original signal produces secondary harmonics, and there are many mathematical ways to suppress harmonic generation, with each version of limiter software generally doing a much better job at compression without harmonic artifacts.
That being said, I have the L1 and have used the L2. I don't use the L1 too much, usually just for secondary instruments that need pretty heavy-handed leveling. I didn't see enough benefit in my usage to purchase the L2, but that's because I mostly use hardware for my bus compression/limiting. I don't necessarily hear any bad artifacts from the L series limiters, even the old L1.
Then again, a lot of the distortion artifacts heard on records are from slamming the converters, not from software limiters who routinely get blamed for it.
The older apogee converters used to be praised for the ability of the user to push the audio hard and they would get "sweeter" sounding. Of course, this was because the signal was triggering the ADC protection and being clipped by diodes.. Very similar to how most guitar distortion pedals work..
But then again, I'm apparently strange. I like today's sound. I like it when the instruments sound like a big cohesive unit rather than a bunch of people playing in the same room on some instruments, and I still contend that being able to produce a *good* loud record is much much harder than just tracking things clean and calling it a day.
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Jul 29, 2015 8:52:17 GMT -6
I used to have both as well as l3 multi and massey l2007. I found l1 to be pretty unusable for 2bus duties. L2 produces some kind of boost in the upper mid/ highs that to me sounds grainy and very "digital". The massey was probably the most transparent but didnt really get as loud as the others. Out of all of these to me the l3 multi was the clear winner for loudness. Compared to the others it just sounded way more open and less congested, although like any othet limiter would fall apart if abused. Im asuming you are on an older system if these are your considerations. I just updated my system and went with fgx which I really love. Some here say there are even better ones than that too. (Invisible limiter, pro-l, elephant etc...) I used to use multiple instances of different limiters taking off a db or two, then soft clipping converters to get loud. Now one instance of fgx and im done. I no longer worry about destroying my mix getting "loud" and its a beautiful thing  |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 29, 2015 12:57:44 GMT -6
Well, not to jump into another loudness wars fight, but there is a big difference in a "concrete block of mushed sound" and a "square wave". I see all these posts talking about dynamic-less audio and "square waves" as being the same thing all the time, however they are two completely different things. Zoom into the "block" and you'll see that it's still very sinusoidal waveforms happening. Hard clipping (AKA square waves) produces huge numbers of harmonics that manifest as the scratchy distortion we hear on OD guitars, etc, and that's not what is going on here. The point of these limiters is to gracefully but aggressively compress the dynamic range of the audio with the least amount of secondary distortion possible. This is done by tracking the dA/dt (change in amplitude over change in time) and making mathematical calculations on the change in amplitude on the fly. Even the slightest change in amplitude/time from the original signal produces secondary harmonics, and there are many mathematical ways to suppress harmonic generation, with each version of limiter software generally doing a much better job at compression without harmonic artifacts. That being said, I have the L1 and have used the L2. I don't use the L1 too much, usually just for secondary instruments that need pretty heavy-handed leveling. I didn't see enough benefit in my usage to purchase the L2, but that's because I mostly use hardware for my bus compression/limiting. I don't necessarily hear any bad artifacts from the L series limiters, even the old L1. Then again, a lot of the distortion artifacts heard on records are from slamming the converters, not from software limiters who routinely get blamed for it. The older apogee converters used to be praised for the ability of the user to push the audio hard and they would get "sweeter" sounding. Of course, this was because the signal was triggering the ADC protection and being clipped by diodes.. Very similar to how most guitar distortion pedals work.. But then again, I'm apparently strange. I like today's sound. I like it when the instruments sound like a big cohesive unit rather than a bunch of people playing in the same room on some instruments, and I still contend that being able to produce a *good* loud record is much much harder than just tracking things clean and calling it a day. Thanks for your reply svart. I shouldn't have used the term "square wave". I use square waves all the time in using synths. So, you're right there's harmonics in a square wave that are very useful in sound design. I should have said "rectangular shape in the chorus" like this, from a song I'm using as a pop reference track:  And you're right. This track clips Cubase. So, they clipped their converters in mastering it. |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 29, 2015 13:00:57 GMT -6
I used to have both as well as l3 multi and massey l2007. I found l1 to be pretty unusable for 2bus duties. L2 produces some kind of boost in the upper mid/ highs that to me sounds grainy and very "digital". The massey was probably the most transparent but didnt really get as loud as the others. Out of all of these to me the l3 multi was the clear winner for loudness. Compared to the others it just sounded way more open and less congested, although like any othet limiter would fall apart if abused. Im asuming you are on an older system if these are your considerations. I just updated my system and went with fgx which I really love. Some here say there are even better ones than that too. (Invisible limiter, pro-l, elephant etc...) I used to use multiple instances of different limiters taking off a db or two, then soft clipping converters to get loud. Now one instance of fgx and im done. I no longer worry about destroying my mix getting "loud" and its a beautiful thing Thanks for your reply warrenfirehouse. No, I'm not on an older system. I have a voucher from paying my Waves WUP. So, I'm wondering how I'm going to use it. |
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Post by svart on Jul 29, 2015 13:01:50 GMT -6
Well, not to jump into another loudness wars fight, but there is a big difference in a "concrete block of mushed sound" and a "square wave". I see all these posts talking about dynamic-less audio and "square waves" as being the same thing all the time, however they are two completely different things. Zoom into the "block" and you'll see that it's still very sinusoidal waveforms happening. Hard clipping (AKA square waves) produces huge numbers of harmonics that manifest as the scratchy distortion we hear on OD guitars, etc, and that's not what is going on here. The point of these limiters is to gracefully but aggressively compress the dynamic range of the audio with the least amount of secondary distortion possible. This is done by tracking the dA/dt (change in amplitude over change in time) and making mathematical calculations on the change in amplitude on the fly. Even the slightest change in amplitude/time from the original signal produces secondary harmonics, and there are many mathematical ways to suppress harmonic generation, with each version of limiter software generally doing a much better job at compression without harmonic artifacts. That being said, I have the L1 and have used the L2. I don't use the L1 too much, usually just for secondary instruments that need pretty heavy-handed leveling. I didn't see enough benefit in my usage to purchase the L2, but that's because I mostly use hardware for my bus compression/limiting. I don't necessarily hear any bad artifacts from the L series limiters, even the old L1. Then again, a lot of the distortion artifacts heard on records are from slamming the converters, not from software limiters who routinely get blamed for it. The older apogee converters used to be praised for the ability of the user to push the audio hard and they would get "sweeter" sounding. Of course, this was because the signal was triggering the ADC protection and being clipped by diodes.. Very similar to how most guitar distortion pedals work.. But then again, I'm apparently strange. I like today's sound. I like it when the instruments sound like a big cohesive unit rather than a bunch of people playing in the same room on some instruments, and I still contend that being able to produce a *good* loud record is much much harder than just tracking things clean and calling it a day. Thanks for your reply svart. I shouldn't have used the term "square wave". I use square waves all the time in using synths. So, you're right their's harmonics in a square wave that are very useful in sound design. I should have said "rectangular shape in the chorus" like this, from a song I'm using as a pop reference track: And you're right. This track clips Cubase. So, they clipped their converters in mastering it. Oh wow, that is insane how flat that is. Even some of the loudest pro recordings I've pulled into the DAW don't look that flattened. |
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Post by Ward on Jul 29, 2015 14:09:10 GMT -6
I have the L1, L2 and L3 al with ultra maximizers. I'll take the L1 any day over the other two... and it's the only one I use. It is good wen set to -0.1 as output limit, -2 to -4 threshold, achieving 1-2 db of gain reduction. It helps you "mix for mastering". But that's as far as I'll go with it!!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 29, 2015 14:27:13 GMT -6
I thinkn I've seen the L2 on sale for $99 or maybe $129. $400 is crazy unless your voucher is gor $300.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 29, 2015 14:28:06 GMT -6
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jul 29, 2015 14:35:25 GMT -6
I use L1 more than the others. Never on the buss though. Use L1 a lot on tracks that I want to fatten up. Even use it on vocals at the end the strip sometimes.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 29, 2015 18:53:38 GMT -6
I thinkn I've seen the L2 on sale for $99 or maybe $129. $400 is crazy unless your voucher is gor $300. Anyone who pays retail for plugins but ESPECIALLY Waves are crazy... I think the L2 might have even been less than that recently - like $79. Also you can only use 25% of the voucher value towards the price of a single plugin or 50% towards a bundle. If you don't mind me asking superwack, where do you find these deals? |
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Post by M57 on Jul 29, 2015 19:05:24 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 29, 2015 19:27:20 GMT -6
Anyone who pays retail for plugins but ESPECIALLY Waves are crazy... I think the L2 might have even been less than that recently - like $79. Also you can only use 25% of the voucher value towards the price of a single plugin or 50% towards a bundle. If you don't mind me asking superwack, where do you find these deals? Audiodeluxe.com is my go to. Sign up for their mailing list and you'll get bombarded with deal emails. Waves has sales alllllllll the time l. Monthly sales, daily deals, mid month sales, made up holiday sales, all the time. Whatever you're looking for will come up cheap within a couple months. |
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Post by LesC on Jul 29, 2015 20:23:48 GMT -6
I get regularly bombarded with emails from Waves and several of their dealers. I've usually found the best prices at wavesuniverse.com If you register (for free), they will give prices that are quite a bit lower than the Waves sales prices.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 29, 2015 22:37:32 GMT -6
I love the L1 on bass. I always at least TRY it there.
I have had a long love/hate with L2. Sometimes it's just perfect and sometimes it ruins my mix. My assistant and I got to calling it the song ruiner. Hahahahahaha.
Lots of things end up with that nickname at White Buffalo!
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Post by Guitar on Aug 1, 2015 16:31:06 GMT -6
I think the L2 is $300 now full price. I really have been liking it on the 2-buss lately. I just chose it because I heard of other people doing it, and Waves even makes a hardware version for mastering. It works pretty often for me. I'm with svart, I like (sensible) modern sonics.
However PSP Xenon is possibly even more natural sounding and I think it's on sale right now at JRRshop.com for a pretty good price. If it came down to value I would probably choose Xenon. It's certainly not a worse limiter, in fact it might actually be better.
I'm curious about the Slate stuff but I haven't tried it. Also if you pick up the FabFilter bundle, almost all of those plugins are top quality and you would get the Pro-L limiter.
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