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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 24, 2015 9:59:57 GMT -6
While I realize there's not a perfect vocal mic, what frequencies are you ok with being prevalent during tracking and ok to take out later? For my tastes - and hey, I could be wrong - I like to have more bottom end than I need, because you can't really add that in after the fact. I can always HP it later. I'm finding that with the poppish type mixes I do, I often struggle digging the mids out properly with this MK-U47...it's very rich in the 400-1khz area - lots of info there. The top is fantastic with a little rise around 2khz. When Shannon builds another capsule for me, I'll probably have him take out some of those 600-1khz mids.
I don't know if there's a term for this - and maybe it's just a product of my own voice, but I notice that there are spikes in certain freq ranges with my vocals on this mic. Like a big spike at 400 during the verses and then a little higher during the chorus'. I might not be explaining that well. Seems to be moreso with this mic than others.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2015 10:12:54 GMT -6
I'd bet dollars to dimes It's not the mic, it's ur room, those freqs have power and punch, they excite and build in spaces like yours very easily, extend a mic cable down to ur piano area and try to blow my bet up?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 24, 2015 10:36:35 GMT -6
Yeah - you're probably right, it's more the room, but this mic is def more accentuated in those freq. more so than other mics I've owned. I guess though, the question was really more about what you want to dial out or keep in at tracking.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 24, 2015 10:37:50 GMT -6
I had a casual conversation with a neighbor yesterday who's an AE, and has a dozen high end mics. I mentioned I still wasn't happy with the sound I'm getting, and he said, you know, once you get to that quality level, you're gonna hear the room, and after seeing Tony's post, I think he has a point. he said just try a 58 in a crappy room, you'll be surprised. Part of my issue is I'm also compressing the 4hit outta stuff to get some energy and volume, so the flaws in the vocal are also highlighted.
Maybe I'll post a mix in a minute as an example..
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 24, 2015 11:36:00 GMT -6
If you're not spending 20% of your mic budget on acoustics, you're probably screwing yourself. I'm building portable traps this week or next, no point upgrading my locker if I can't at least partially control the environments I'll be working in.
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Post by winetree on Jul 24, 2015 12:23:48 GMT -6
I wrote and taught an acoustics course in collage for 3 years. The human voice is predominatly in 100- 500 hz range.
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2015 14:07:17 GMT -6
I want my vocal mics to capture passion and excitement - and I'll often find that visuals are as important as the type of mic itself. Whatever mic gets the vocalist going in those directions is the mic I'll use. I don't care if it's a vintage mic, a clone, a ribbon, dynamic, FET, tube, skinny or fat mic. If it gets the vocalist excited and passionate to sing, then it's the right mic for me / them. Generally speaking though, the mics that generate that excitement are the classics - or mics that are cloned to look like the classics. The ones they know by looking at them and knowing that their favorite singers have used them. Sometimes you can trick singers into using a mic that's better for them vibe wise, but you have to be careful with that....
Performance is everything. Frequencies I can deal with and fix.
PS - sometimes their choice is just flat out WRONG - and that's where it gets tricky.
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Post by M57 on Jul 24, 2015 15:29:36 GMT -6
I wrote and taught an acoustics course in collage for 3 years. The human voice is predominatly in 100- 500 hz range. I took and acoustics of music course in college - for one semester. Anyway, though I would not disagree with your statement, I believe we all know it's because these are where the fundamentals and very first series of harmonics lie. Nevertheless, unless the fact that those frequencies, which are certainly louder than the higher harmonics that are so important to defining the subtleties of tone and character, somehow additionally masks them, I don't see how it's relevant. A bump is a bump and a dip a dip. If you hear it, you hear it.
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Post by wiz on Jul 24, 2015 16:50:23 GMT -6
The only way to know if its the mic or the room... go to a really good room with that mic...
then,... fix as needed 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 24, 2015 16:54:52 GMT -6
im gonna try out my bigger entrance hall, but the thing is, I don't want to have to move anything out of my room. I want it to work the way I want it to in there.
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Post by wiz on Jul 24, 2015 16:58:44 GMT -6
im gonna try out my bigger entrance hall, but the thing is, I don't want to have to move anything out of my room. I want it to work the way I want it to in there. And I understand and get that completely. It might be really beneficial, to just quickly go and test the mic in another location just the once though, even in another room that sounds cool in your house.. that way you know for sure what way is up. To answer your original question, which I rudely neglected to... Its somewhat dependant on the tune. I really just use the one vocal mic now, my u87 and it goes into my 1073 and has my STA running over it at tracking time and it depends mostly if its an acoustic tune or band tune but something around 240ish and some times another one around 600z and maybe again somewhere around 2K all dips I don't really boost. cheers Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2015 21:17:59 GMT -6
I wrote and taught an acoustics course in collage for 3 years. The human voice is predominatly in 100- 500 hz range. I took and acoustics of music course in college - for one semester. Anyway, though I would not disagree with your statement, I believe we all know it's because these are where the fundamentals and very first series of harmonics lie. Nevertheless, unless the fact that those frequencies, which are certainly louder than the higher harmonics that are so important to defining the subtleties of tone and character, somehow additionally masks them, I don't see how it's relevant. A bump is a bump and a dip a dip. If you hear it, you hear it. not speaking for winetree, but i think he said that because it's where the vast majority of the freq energy lies in the human voice, fundamentals between 80 to 180hz on males, now put that in conjunction with the fact that predominant human hearing sensitivity exists in the exact same bands, and it's a recipe for caos (it's mistaken that 2-5k range is the strongest, it's the most sensitive to our ears, but not the most energetic, think about trying to listen in on a conversation happening across a room, all you hear is the 100-500hz murmur, no articulation in 1-5k region because those freq's don't have the energy to cut through atmosphere, and carry across the room). If a vocal is sung in a pinched environment/small room/bad acoustics that tend to aim reflections back at the mic, those 80 to 500hz freq's will easily show up as the strongest audible peaks on that mic, they will be heard to be loudest by a mic that is NOT subject to fletcher munson rules, then you play them back on monitors 3' away from your ears, and there they are!! it's all very confusing, i'm confused after writing this lol. The hard reality is NO ONE hides from their room, it either shows up as it is, or shows up as your attempt to hide it, either way it's putting a big fingerprint on everything you record. So my 20 cents is.. either get it straightened out to the degree it does no harm, make it sound great, or find a great sounding room to be your recording home and be a really happy camper, all much easier said than done no doubt.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2015 21:27:15 GMT -6
JK, Idea, since you are locked into that room upstairs, if the roof joists are any larger than 2x4 trusses? it may be a VERY cool idea to take the drywall off the pitched ceiling, make sure it's adequately insulated(open face down), and cover it with Acoustically transparent cloth(white... ask me why), trim it out in some nice wood stripping. That could likely go huge to straightening out some of those ridge/peak redirect issues in there imv.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jul 25, 2015 9:37:29 GMT -6
I've found in the past that a mic isn't a problem with a great singer. Usually it's what's in front of the mic that gives you problems. I don't know how to fix that.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 25, 2015 10:01:08 GMT -6
I've found in the past that a mic isn't a problem with a great singer. Usually it's what's in front of the mic that gives you problems. I don't know how to fix that. this is NOT one of those cases, JK sings very well indeed, and his room definitely has some problematic factors.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2015 11:57:16 GMT -6
I've found in the past that a mic isn't a problem with a great singer. Usually it's what's in front of the mic that gives you problems. I don't know how to fix that. this is NOT one of those cases, JK sings very well indeed, and his room definitely has some problematic factors. Often great singers have a completely different perspective of what their voice should sound like than the rest of us, sometimes finding that sound is a never ending quest!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 25, 2015 12:26:41 GMT -6
Well, thanks for the nice words...I'm not having many problems getting a final result that I like - just a little more work than I'm used to. The CV4 that Shannon modded was definitely tweaked more to my personal liking, but this MK-U47 with the blueline has a wonderful top. And rich mid mids - 400-900 - but a little forward than I need for most vocals. When I have Shannon make the new K47, I'll probably have him tweak until I get it just like I want it. I could see keeping the Thiersch because it is great sounding...but then again, if the Shannon one is as good as I think, maybe I'll just sell it.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 25, 2015 15:20:54 GMT -6
I want my vocal mics to capture passion and excitement - and I'll often find that visuals are as important as the type of mic itself. Whatever mic gets the vocalist going in those directions is the mic I'll use. Sometimes you can trick singers into using a mic that's better for them vibe wise, but you have to be careful with that.... Ike and Tina Turner being Exhibit A of your theory. Fair warning: NSFW
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Post by drbill on Jul 25, 2015 16:44:19 GMT -6
LOL Don't think they could have pulled that off with a U47..... heh heh
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 25, 2015 19:18:49 GMT -6
Even if your mic has what it takes, sometimes the preamp choice can obscure that.
Recently, I switched to a Dizengoff D4, ( a REDD 47 clone), and now I hear much more nuance and low level detail, with a bright, but smoother high end. So, the right preamp enabled me to hear what my mic's capable of.
As for the question, I want my mic to sound like this..
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Post by mjheck on Jul 25, 2015 20:41:29 GMT -6
I've been surprised at how much I prefer a figure of 8 pattern to cardioid. I like the frequency response better, and the way the room is mitigated by the opposing capsules. It also seems to add a little halo of depth around the vocal. May be worth a shot if you haven't visited that pattern in a while, or even with this mic, if it has multiple pattern choices like a Peluso, rather than just cardioid and Omni (I'm not familiar with your exact mic).
MJH
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