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Post by EmRR on Jul 20, 2015 13:52:33 GMT -6
Yep, that can get the snare both out of the way in the OH picture and make it sound more explosive at the same time.
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Post by geoff738 on Jul 20, 2015 14:36:24 GMT -6
You're the only other person, besides me, that I've heard use the term "Bloom" when it comes to cymbals and using compression! I've been using that term forever - but hey, I'm just a weekend warrior at this stuff. I'm using the term to describe something like the cymbal sounds on the Ron Sexsmith record Steve Earle produced. the attack is very muted - almost like they were hit with mallets or something, and then the cymbal sound just "blooms". I really can't think of a better word for it. On that record the cymbals also sound very warm - not harsh at all. I'm guessing a lot of ribbon mics. Not really what I associate with Steve Earle's own stuff. Would love to hear examples of what you guys are describing as bloom. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 20, 2015 15:07:42 GMT -6
You're the only other person, besides me, that I've heard use the term "Bloom" when it comes to cymbals and using compression! I've been using that term forever - but hey, I'm just a weekend warrior at this stuff. I'm using the term to describe something like the cymbal sounds on the Ron Sexsmith record Steve Earle produced. the attack is very muted - almost like they were hit with mallets or something, and then the cymbal sound just "blooms". I really can't think of a better word for it. On that record the cymbals also sound very warm - not harsh at all. I'm guessing a lot of ribbon mics. Not really what I associate with Steve Earle's own stuff. Would love to hear examples of what you guys are describing as bloom. Cheers, Geoff me too, I'm a drummer, and i think the best cymbal is no cymbal haha, they usually sound of poop, and gobble up mixes to the enth degree... no matter what you do, it helps having expertly chosen, big, thin cymbals that just get out of the way quick, i have 0 interest in making them bloom about 98% of the time.., unless by bloom you mean pulling them off of the drummers kit and frisbeeing them out the door haha. I love the crash and ride cymbal sound on this.... |
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2015 15:26:41 GMT -6
I love the crash and ride cymbal sound on this.... You're a funny man!! LOL |
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Post by popmann on Jul 20, 2015 15:36:21 GMT -6
Now, if only they hadn't recorded some horrible Ovation DI in the right speaker.
I always like it when Eddie steps outside his comfort zone. Say what people will, Hagar pushed him out of it WAY more by actually writing songs....and not Roth's "here's our tracks--sing something over it" approach. And I loved Dave with Vai. They both had that quirky odd campy thing going and it multiplied together.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 20, 2015 16:35:21 GMT -6
Glad someone else instantly pulled a face at the acoustic DI. Lou Reed said it first - cymbals eat guitars. I prefer my drums hard panned anyway.
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Post by M57 on Jul 20, 2015 16:54:55 GMT -6
Now, if only they hadn't recorded some horrible Ovation DI in the right speaker. I always like it when Eddie steps outside his comfort zone. Say what people will, Hagar pushed him out of it WAY more by actually writing songs....and not Roth's "here's our tracks--sing something over it" approach. And I loved Dave with Vai. They both had that quirky odd campy thing going and it multiplied together. Damn, by about half way through, I was getting ready to punch something. Just gimme a crash - just a teensy one ..PAALEEEASE! There's no way I could listen to that tune two times in a row. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 20, 2015 17:21:33 GMT -6
Back in Black. Really low cymbals in the mix, whole record. Perfect, really.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 20, 2015 18:45:05 GMT -6
I'm a drummer, and i think the best cymbal is no cymbal haha, My favorite use of no cymbals is this one... |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 20, 2015 23:10:48 GMT -6
Man...I've spent my entire career trying to get cymbals UP in the mix (cause they say "excitement!!!" "ENTERTAINMENT!!") without eating the guitars. It's hard. Cymbal choice and mic choice are so important.
Eric Valentine did it on Taking Back Sunday "what's it feel like to be a ghost".
I felt like I got it when I mixed this but I don't know anymore
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Post by noah shain on Jul 20, 2015 23:17:18 GMT -6
Sounds like the kind of thin cymbals we were talking about
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Post by geoff738 on Jul 20, 2015 23:36:24 GMT -6
Ok, I;m gonna post something I've posted here before - but it fits this thread:
Ok, not a rock n rolla example, but gets at what I was describing. Plus it's freaking awesome. But I digress. The bloom thing for me is that it isn't an immediate smash that starts dying away. The initial thing takes a while to build. And gets bigger. And the does its dying throes. A bit note of a complex thing maybe? Anywho, Joe Henry played in town last night and I went to see the Flaming Lips instead. I suck. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 21, 2015 1:47:09 GMT -6
Man...I've spent my entire career trying to get cymbals UP in the mix (cause they say "excitement!!!" "ENTERTAINMENT!!") without eating the guitars. It's hard. Cymbal choice and mic choice are so important. Eric Valentine did it on Taking Back Sunday "what's it feel like to be a ghost". I felt like I got it when I mixed this but I don't know anymore I dig it this record Noah! Weatherman and Mona Lisa is some cool sheets mon! |
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Post by M57 on Jul 21, 2015 5:07:05 GMT -6
Pastel thin cymbals, and lot's of 'em.. Great drummer here.. Solo at about 6:30 with clave on left foot.
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Post by svart on Jul 21, 2015 6:49:02 GMT -6
Man...I've spent my entire career trying to get cymbals UP in the mix (cause they say "excitement!!!" "ENTERTAINMENT!!") without eating the guitars. It's hard. Cymbal choice and mic choice are so important. Eric Valentine did it on Taking Back Sunday "what's it feel like to be a ghost". I felt like I got it when I mixed this but I don't know anymore I dig it this record Noah! Weatherman and Mona Lisa is some cool sheets mon! Me too. Ever since he posted the whole thing, it's in regular rotation in my playlist at work, and it's one of my A/B sources in the studio. |
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Post by svart on Jul 21, 2015 6:59:30 GMT -6
Pastel thin cymbals, and lot's of 'em.. Great drummer here.. Solo at about 6:30 with clave on left foot. Not really my kinda music, but I have mad respect for folks doing fusion. One thing to mention is that not only do the thinness and size matter, but also the cymbal profile. Cymbals that are thinner towards the bell will have a lot less sustain and more complex "trash" sound than those which are just thin towards the edge. Also, one more point to bring up, which you can see in that video is that the cymbals barely swish when he hits them. He has the nuts/felts really tight which will choke down the sustain too. Distance to the mics has an effect too. I generally try to adjust the overhead and/or cymbal locations to match the distance between each bell and the overhead closest to it. This way they all have a generally similar distance, which mostly matches them in level and decay in terms of the mic pickup. If I have a cymbal that is just louder, or a mis-matched tone, I'll move it closer or further to get it more in line with the others. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 21, 2015 9:13:06 GMT -6
One of the best sessions I ever did was when the drummer forgot his cymbals. It knocked him completely off auto-pilot which resulted it some of the most creative drumming I've ever heard supporting a song.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 21, 2015 10:30:16 GMT -6
Here's something few believe when I say it.. when u have good toms properly tuned, they will be LOUDER and jumping into the overheads MORE than the cymbals which ar closer to the OH's. I have a horribly over baked track here somewhere that I played drums on about a decade ago, it was captured with a SINGLE crappy "zoom" like mono mic thingy as an overhead, complete with BAD crispy sq wave clipping! haha, but at least it was mixed on a digi 001! BUT, the point is, the toms are explosive over the cymbs as is, I will try to dig that track to show y'all
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 23, 2015 15:31:10 GMT -6
Here's something few believe when I say it.. when u have good toms properly tuned, they will be LOUDER and jumping into the overheads MORE than the cymbals which ar closer to the OH's. I have a horribly over baked track here somewhere that I played drums on about a decade ago, it was captured with a SINGLE crappy "zoom" like mono mic thingy as an overhead, complete with BAD crispy sq wave clipping! haha, but at least it was mixed on a digi 001! BUT, the point is, the toms are explosive over the cymbs as is, I remember being surprised how hard they jumped out? I will try to dig that track to show y'all Found the Crispy critter track, it's worse than i remembered haha, it was a clickless attempt to see if it was feasible to put drums, bass, key's over an existing Jeff Buckley/Led Zeppelin track, after shit attempts and PT screwing the sync of the tracks with a digi 001, i tried to realign them, got frustrated, and said F-it, so give me a break! Anyway, through all the massive square wave clip distortion, you can hear how the toms just jump out over the cymbals into a single "zoom like" mic device placed as a single overhead for the drums(can't remember what model or make it was exactly, but on thing is for sure, it got horribly overloaded! 8) this is the Buckley track by himself https%3A//soundcloud.com/tonycamp/nightflight-buckley this is post my mutilation! lol https%3A//soundcloud.com/tonycamp/nightflight-crispycritter8 |
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Post by wiz on Jul 23, 2015 16:16:26 GMT -6
I listened, and just started digging it.. and forgot completely what I was supposed to be listening to.
I dig it just the way it is.
Sometimes bad is so good.
Sounds a bit like Bonham jamming with Buckley to me. In fact I hear a bit of Plant in his vocal style.
But you point about this toms is there, I just don't care, still grooving to the track.
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 23, 2015 18:34:08 GMT -6
I listened, and just started digging it.. and forgot completely what I was supposed to be listening to. I dig it just the way it is. Sometimes bad is so good. Sounds a bit like Bonham jamming with Buckley to me. In fact I hear a bit of Plant in his vocal style. But you point about this toms is there, I just don't care, still grooving to the track. 8) cheers Wiz Thanx Wiz, you're too kind, but since you're my pal, it's a bit like your mother calling you handsome, your not sure if you can trust it! haha. Night flight is a Led Zep song covered by Mr. Buckley, i very much did my best Bonham impression, it definitely was fun! 8) |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 24, 2015 3:57:55 GMT -6
Wait, now I'm lost. My mother never called me handsome. Does that mean I am, or not?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 24, 2015 6:22:36 GMT -6
Wait, now I'm lost. My mother never called me handsome. Does that mean I am, or not? I don't know but I'm to pretty for jail! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2015 6:41:50 GMT -6
Wait, now I'm lost. My mother never called me handsome. Does that mean I am, or not? Yes |
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Post by schmalzy on Jul 27, 2015 21:54:49 GMT -6
In a rock environment, I'm typically smashing the heck out of rooms. A lot of time, I'm looking to that mic for most (or all, if it works out that way) of my drum ambience. I'm using fast attack and fast release to blast the initial transients and give me a solid bunch of ambience with no punch to speak of. The delay between close mics + overheads and room mics can be pretty noticeable. Too much attack gives you some flamming so I make sure that attack is somewhere between subdued and obliterated. By destroying the attack, I'm basically getting a natural reverb with as much pre-delay as I want (you can adjust that by moving the tracks on the timeline or inserting a short delay mixed 100% wet in the fx path) with less likelihood of noticeable flamming. The further down in the background that ambience track is, the less I find I need to stomp on those transients.
I'm compressing overheads differently depending on what I need them to do. Sometimes I want to accentuate the immediacy of the drum shells and reduce the cymbals and shell tone: slow attack and medium release (timed by ear to the pulse of the song). Other times I'm looking to accentuate the cymbals and/or get less stick attack on the shells (or more tone off the shells, depending on how you look at it) so I'm going fast attack and fast-to-medium release.
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