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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2015 18:46:11 GMT -6
I've seen that a lot of people slam OH and Room mics with compression - e.g. hitting LA3A's with major gain reduction. What is the purpose there? Other than if it needs to be compressed for transient peaks. Tonal qualities? Most of the time, I tend to leave OH and Room alone - don't want to hear any sucking sound and I also don't want to hear hat and cymbals get messy...
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Post by bluenoise on Jul 18, 2015 19:21:00 GMT -6
In my room, I usually place a ribbon mic in a corner i found sounds great, pointing the null towards the kit. That i smash into distortion with an 1176 (hairball rev a) or the pye compressor in plugin world and blend it to taste. It makes the drum move different. More exciting. And it gives them balls and a hairy chest.
Not for everything, but when it works it really pays.
My little 0.02...
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 18, 2015 21:01:42 GMT -6
my 2 cents, generally rooms are very complex sounds that need to get squeezed into a denser, smaller package, so the ambience can be heard without taking up too much room(pun)in the mix thats needed for other things, just a slight pull back on the fader, and also a natural roll off of the highs occurs when you squeeze them usually, this allows them to recede into the speakers almost on their own, creating depth.
so the uncomplicated answer is to create audible ambient depth without gobbling up all the freq bandwidth in the mix, which rooms, verbs and delays can all do very quickly. I almost always compress all ambient effects, but i suck at mixing so don't listen to me haha.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 18, 2015 21:43:51 GMT -6
Rooms to draw the ambience, OH's, being more delicate, to settle them in with the kit. Sometimes the OH's don't need it, depends on the mic'g. In big ballads you can get a kind of reverse swell happening and it makes the kit sound big. Just mess with the attack and release times at a lower threshold until it moves right and then dial in how much you want in the mix. What I do usually.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2015 22:34:43 GMT -6
I guess it just depends on the song, but I find myself reaching for less ambience on kits these days. I like pulling out the room with compression on the snare if the hat doesn't ruin it all, but it seems like I use less room than I used to.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 18, 2015 22:49:03 GMT -6
I've seen that a lot of people slam OH and Room mics with compression - e.g. hitting LA3A's with major gain reduction. What is the purpose there? Other than if it needs to be compressed for transient peaks. Tonal qualities? Most of the time, I tend to leave OH and Room alone - don't want to hear any sucking sound and I also don't want to hear hat and cymbals get messy... I don't slam OH usually but I will sometimes use an 1176 with a faster attack than you'd think to get the cymbals to bloom a little more if they have a short decay. Those cymbals that sound like a bottle breaking. Ugh...all crunch and no sustain. This is one of those times I try and time the release so that it gets back to zero reduction before the next downbeat or whichever beat is appropriate. Not so much going for ambience but just to tame harsh cymbal attack and add decay. On rooms I'm a smash a holic. There's just nothing like a 33609 on rooms. Well...a 10dc pair (which I own) is like that. It's just so familiar and right on room mics. Not ALWAYS smashtastic ambience maximizing. Sometimes just a touch of pump. Needles barely moving. |
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 19, 2015 0:53:59 GMT -6
I've seen that a lot of people slam OH and Room mics with compression - e.g. hitting LA3A's with major gain reduction. What is the purpose there? Other than if it needs to be compressed for transient peaks. Tonal qualities? Most of the time, I tend to leave OH and Room alone - don't want to hear any sucking sound and I also don't want to hear hat and cymbals get messy... I don't slam OH usually but I will sometimes use an 1176 with a faster attack than you'd think to get the cymbals to bloom a little more if they have a short decay. Those cymbals that sound like a bottle breaking. Ugh...all crunch and no sustain. This is one of those times I try and time the release so that it gets back to zero reduction before the next downbeat or whichever beat is appropriate. Not so much going for ambience but just to tame harsh cymbal attack and add decay. On rooms I'm a smash a holic. There's just nothing like a 33609 on rooms. Well...a 10dc pair (which I own) is like that. It's just so familiar and right on room mics. Not ALWAYS smashtastic ambience maximizing. Sometimes just a touch of pump. Needles barely moving. Fast attack on OH's......Funny.....I didn't find that out until a couple years in and it was by mistake, I'd actually sent out the OH's to the wrong channels on the SSL, and on one side the fast attack knob was pulled up my overheads, and I'd thought "damn, why does the left side of the kit sound so controlled and the other is splashy" then when I went to adjust I'd found where they actually were on the console and pulled the other side up and Eureka! Amazed me. I love the SSL 4k/6k channel comps on OH's, they are really good for that. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 19, 2015 1:14:11 GMT -6
Overheads are way different than rooms in my mind, they ARE the drum sound, so generally for me the attack and release times are dependent on 2 things, the tempo of the tune and the placement of the drums front to back in the image, ratio and threshold are contingent upon how busy the mix is, and how much movement i desire, then i realize i screwed everything up, i suck and need to start over haha 8)
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 19, 2015 10:09:27 GMT -6
It's a way to emulate the bleed into a live vocal. A better way is to set up a cardioid mike a couple feet from the kit aimed away from it as if it were a vocal mike.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jul 19, 2015 10:39:51 GMT -6
Seems to me to be a tribute to one old Led Zepplin album, but I could be wrong. Most rooms sound like crap, good ones are an exception, not a rule.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 19, 2015 11:50:57 GMT -6
The old Quadrafonic room here in Nashville has a superb drum sound.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 19, 2015 12:43:46 GMT -6
The old Quadrafonic room here in Nashville has a superb drum sound. Hi Bob, can you please approximate the dimensions of that room? and maybe the materials present on the surfaces? thanx |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2015 14:37:46 GMT -6
I don't normally compress either one.
I've done a second album with a group that does a swampy garage band blues sort of thing, and want it to sound 'lo-fi' and 'like it sounds in our metal storage rehearsal shed', with maximum bleed. They play quietly, then beat the crap out of everything, then play quietly. In this case both records were done with a stereo pair in the room set up to capture as much as possible as well as possible, with close mics for spot control. The stereo pair worked well with pretty heavy AGC type compression that was pre-emphasized with dbx 902's set as high frequency limiters to erase the glaring cymbal smashing in the loud parts. The OH pair was not compressed at all, and was set much lower than the room mics in the mix. The AGC moves enough that it changes the sense of space from loud to quiet, with a bigger sounding ambience in the quiet parts. This can also fail horribly if the band dynamics are wrong.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2015 17:12:41 GMT -6
This was done historically to make the ambient sound more present,
The details that are picked up by the room mica are quite low in level and can get lost in a mix or in the old days tape noise, Compressing brings them up and gives you some headroom so that you can add some gain.
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Post by popmann on Jul 19, 2015 18:16:23 GMT -6
The same reason I would use dynamic on anything--to change the envelope. In the case of room it's to get rid of the attack as much as possible so it doesn't interfere with the closer mics....and in the overheads, it's to suppress the sustain so I can mix the overheads higher than I would if you also had to live with all the cymbal wash and ringing.
Prior to SPL Transient Designer....those were accomplished with different pieces of kit--limiter fast attack and release to handle the rooms and a downward expander with the attack set to let the transients through at full volume and then grip down a few DB. Now, more often than not, I can just use that to achieve both.
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Post by popmann on Jul 19, 2015 18:17:19 GMT -6
...well, anything except a vocal, where the job is raise the RMS level as transparently as possible.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2015 19:53:24 GMT -6
The old Quadrafonic room here in Nashville has a superb drum sound. The wood one downstairs? Isn't that an 8068 in there? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2015 19:58:07 GMT -6
The same reason I would use dynamic on anything--to change the envelope. In the case of room it's to get rid of the attack as much as possible so it doesn't interfere with the closer mics....and in the overheads, it's to suppress the sustain so I can mix the overheads higher than I would if you also had to live with all the cymbal wash and ringing. Prior to SPL Transient Designer....those were accomplished with different pieces of kit--limiter fast attack and release to handle the rooms and a downward expander with the attack set to let the transients through at full volume and then grip down a few DB. Now, more often than not, I can just use that to achieve both. Awesome post! |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 19, 2015 21:18:15 GMT -6
Yes, the one with the Neve.
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2015 7:05:59 GMT -6
Overheads: To make the cymbals "bloom"
Rooms: To bring more of the ambiance forward.
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2015 7:09:50 GMT -6
I've seen that a lot of people slam OH and Room mics with compression - e.g. hitting LA3A's with major gain reduction. What is the purpose there? Other than if it needs to be compressed for transient peaks. Tonal qualities? Most of the time, I tend to leave OH and Room alone - don't want to hear any sucking sound and I also don't want to hear hat and cymbals get messy... I don't slam OH usually but I will sometimes use an 1176 with a faster attack than you'd think to get the cymbals to bloom a little more if they have a short decay. Those cymbals that sound like a bottle breaking. Ugh...all crunch and no sustain. This is one of those times I try and time the release so that it gets back to zero reduction before the next downbeat or whichever beat is appropriate. Not so much going for ambience but just to tame harsh cymbal attack and add decay. On rooms I'm a smash a holic. There's just nothing like a 33609 on rooms. Well...a 10dc pair (which I own) is like that. It's just so familiar and right on room mics. Not ALWAYS smashtastic ambience maximizing. Sometimes just a touch of pump. Needles barely moving. Posted then read your post. You're the only other person, besides me, that I've heard use the term "Bloom" when it comes to cymbals and using compression! |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 20, 2015 10:47:49 GMT -6
I don't slam OH usually but I will sometimes use an 1176 with a faster attack than you'd think to get the cymbals to bloom a little more if they have a short decay. Those cymbals that sound like a bottle breaking. Ugh...all crunch and no sustain. This is one of those times I try and time the release so that it gets back to zero reduction before the next downbeat or whichever beat is appropriate. Not so much going for ambience but just to tame harsh cymbal attack and add decay. On rooms I'm a smash a holic. There's just nothing like a 33609 on rooms. Well...a 10dc pair (which I own) is like that. It's just so familiar and right on room mics. Not ALWAYS smashtastic ambience maximizing. Sometimes just a touch of pump. Needles barely moving. Posted then read your post. You're the only other person, besides me, that I've heard use the term "Bloom" when it comes to cymbals and using compression! Hahaha. I noticed that too. I often find I like the attack sound of thinner drier cymbals but they lack sustain. I like to use a little compression at mix to get a bit of bloom outta those too. |
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2015 13:03:24 GMT -6
]Hahaha. I noticed that too. I often find I like the attack sound of thinner drier cymbals but they lack sustain. I like to use a little compression at mix to get a bit of bloom outta those too. Yes indeed! Especially with Zildjian K Dark series (thine ones) and Zildjian A series hats! |
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 20, 2015 13:19:31 GMT -6
Unless the mix specific calls for the squashed hip hop drum break/When The Levee Breaks thing I'm not going to because most of the time I think it distracts from the actual parts the drummer is playing.
People often do it to fake more ambience out of the room. Or for louds. Or to make the cymbals pump.
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Post by svart on Jul 20, 2015 13:37:10 GMT -6
If you just tickle the OH's with some fast attack, fast release, you can reduce the volume of the snare in relationship to the OH's in the OH tracks. It's good for getting more body from the close mics without resorting to jacking up the level of the snare in the mix or EQ'ing excessively.
Try 1176's on them, then just set attack for fast, 2-3dB GR and adjust release to the tempo like Noah mentions. Pretty much a standard radio ready rock sound.
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