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Post by mrholmes on Jul 16, 2015 4:48:41 GMT -6
I did listen to old mixes today.
And I was sometimes surprised, but very often schocked too.
No depth.
Too loud, and too much attack, on the kick.
Lead sounds are screaming into my face like crazy.
No ribbon of sound between the spakers, a lot of holes in the image.
Overall too much low end, or high end.
It was getting better anyway, but with the invention of Magic AB my learning curve goes steep to the sky. Yes I did AB songs before, but level matching was very often faulty.... its way easier with Magic AB.
Would you like to share your biggest mistakes in mixing?
Your naive but happy experiences!
What did your mentors say to those mistakes?
Ah and yes, there is nothing wrong with it because humans are faulty.
I still have some of the biggest mistakes online.... LOL.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 16, 2015 6:04:19 GMT -6
Simple, I can't seem to stop making them louder. Intellectually, I get it, our perception is that louder sounds better, but it's an illusion.
So, I run a mix of a song, and I'm satisfied, I run a mix of a different song, and it's good. I play them back to back, and one sounds dull. I go back to the dull mix, and pump it up, instead of going back to the loud mix and bringing it down. Now I'm in a chase between songs. Then I listen to a third song, and it skews my perception of both the other songs. I want cohesion, as if I produced a record in a studio, with the same players and gear.
Where I've made a mistake is in my process. I need to get the mix I like, then run a copy with 6 db less gain, so that if I do ever master the track, the mastering engineer has some wiggle room. Right now, my faux mastered tracks are at their limits. It's OK if all I do is post the mixes, or show them to people. But, if I plan to release them, I'm in trouble.. aarrgghh..
One problem is when bouncing, the sound changes a little, so I end up running five or six mixes, so I can see how they sound bounced. I go back and tweak until I like the sound bounced.
This is why it's hard to have an alternate, less compressed mix, I might decide I like mix 3 of 7, and I didn't save each bounce as an alternate, so I can't go back to that mix. I'll begin saving alternates now, but it's tedious.
I know there's a program that previews codecs, but it's something like $400 or $500. When that's $100 or less, I'll get it.
* also, I'm way too critical of my mixes. When I've sent them to a friend who has 30 gold and platinum albums on his wall, he says their fine.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2015 7:00:19 GMT -6
Simple I am my worst critic, I you handed me the same mix but done by someone else I'd be telling you how great it was , when it's mine I can find ways to nitpick it to death!
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2015 7:05:49 GMT -6
My biggest mixing faults were to follow too many online mixing tutorials.
Seriously.
I started recording and mixing how I thought things sounded good. I was doing solid mixes, then as I got better, I looked to the internet for more information. I was so overwhelmed that I intended to try everything! I also got into DIY, which led me even further from my native skill, into the land where I expected the gear to do all the work. It was a disappointing experience looking back at it now.
I spent years trying every trick and tip I could find, and I could never reach the point where I felt comfortable with my mixes again. They weren't professional enough, and I almost quit a few times.
About 5 years ago, I moved to a new permanent recording space and decided to strip my setup down and start with the basics once again. This caused me to re-evaluate everything I did, and the gear I used. I made up my mind to stay OTB, and only use gear that would be present in a professional studio. No hodgepodge upgraded 3630's, and no BS modified MXL mics, etc.
Instantly I made a jump in progress.
It finally dawned on me that the problem was myself. I'd been searching for the elusive shortcut to professionalism by trying to buy and build my way past the years of work it takes to get there. In fact, I had added years to my struggle by leading myself astray believing that I'd be the one to give the system the middle finger and use modified MXL mics to make professional records.
It's the most wrong I've ever been.
There are no shortcuts. You can't buy or build your way to success. You just end up going down side roads until they turn into dead ends, then you have to backtrack.
I also made the realization that in the 200 years of audio recording history, everything has been tried already. All the mic positions have been tried. All the gear has been tried in every combination.
Only the useful and productive setups have endured.
I wasn't going to invent a new mic position. I wasn't going to get famous by using some piece of gear in a fancy way. I was only wasting time and money trying to stroke my own ego while making excuses for my wasting time.
I decided to relearn the basics.
I always had trouble with guitars I thought. Screechy and muddy was my normal tone. I sat down with an SM57, in-ear monitors with headphones over them to block out even more sound, and I played guitar with all amp settings set to flat while moving the mic around. It sounds silly and simplistic, but it helped more than I could ever imagine.
I did the same for drums, and bass and vocals. I found everything I was looking for through focus and the standard studio gear you'd find at any decent pro studio.
The part that really burns me though, is that listening back to the mixes that I did before I went down the path of ego and BS, I found that those earlier mixes were much better than years of mixes following them. Only in the last couple years have my mixes surpassed the first mixes.
If I had only stayed the course and trusted my ears and instinct, I would be much further along than I am. Possibly even making money doing this.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 16, 2015 7:10:38 GMT -6
Reverb. I always struggle to get the reverb sounds that I'm looking for and the amounts that I want.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 16, 2015 7:13:44 GMT -6
One problem is when bouncing, the sound changes a little, so I end up running five or six mixes, so I can see how they sound bounced. I go back and tweak until I like the sound bounced. Sounds to me like mistakes in level matching. I can not say that the sound changes if I listen to the bounce. Have an SPL Meter lying around. It makes sense and is a big help to check if you fool yourself. I use my I pad for this running the studio six digital SPL meter calibrated to the I pad mic. Works as good as th eones by radio shack is just something about 3 dollars. I like it. |
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 16, 2015 7:21:29 GMT -6
Reverb. I always struggle to get the reverb sounds that I'm looking for and the amounts that I want. So true reverb, special on the LV, can make me sick. I always think that the others do it way better than I do. I have to remind myself that its very taste dependent, and that I do not have the exact same reverb here as they used on my reference tracks. All the re-verbs I used have s different color, a different main sound. I overcome the reflex to use them big and loud, only if needed. Bob elaborated on performance, and mh I cant sing like Sting so with this I have to accept that my LV verbs will never sound lush, wide, and open. What I do is half singing half speaking, and with this the vocal work is more with the rhythm, different of tru singing. No one breathes the words like Sting does it, true beauty. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 16, 2015 8:04:20 GMT -6
Thanks mrholmes, I do have some homework to do.
As for reverb, it is tricky, when I solo a track, it might sound too wet, but in the mix, that same vocal can sound dry. I think one aspect of this issue is the room, of course. We often record in less than ideal situations, and hope to compensate with reverb. I have four or five reverbs. My go to, is the Relab XL480, in HD mode. As good as it is, when I've heard tracks with a Bricasti, they're cleaner. The Exponential's quite clean, but I don't own it. So, the first issue is the reverb itself, not how you use it.
The best solution I've found to not having a good room is the UAD Ocean Way plug-in. I haven't bought it yet, just demo'd it, and it added just the little missing ingredient to sound right. Maybe not quite as right as the real thing, but quite close, and a great help.
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Post by popmann on Jul 17, 2015 7:45:10 GMT -6
Let me tell you what I think 98% of musicians' biggest issue with mixing is.....promise it will lead to my own.
They over think it....and place too much importance on it, both psychologically, and intentionally punting every single choice until that time. This has the effect of the working mix, thus inspiration sounding of poo and while there's some logic in putting off everything until mix time when you aren't experienced enough to make solid calls in real time on the way in....the logic functionally only works if you then have someone WITH said experience mix it for you. The more you leave and rely on in mixing, and particularly for content....ie "maybe mute guitar number three hear and push number two up"....the more objectivity and tech experience you need to juggle all that--else you're simply spinning knobs until you think you've got something. Shoot me now.
So, my own.....is the opposite. Now that musicians are mixing themselves, they are using it as part of the creative process....and ironically leaning on "mastering" to do what mixing used to....and I can't hang. I just can't. I have no capacity or interest in rearranging or reimagining your work. I literally had someone once comment that "why would anyone pay you to just Eq, compress their tracks, and create a sense of space for them?" ....and I knew the game had changed. That IS all mixing did for 40 years. 50? It was about putting everything in balance...getting everything it's own space and articulation....deciding what components needed to be louder for a piece to "work" or "groove"....what used to happen in pop music is you would have "remix" artists do extended dance mixes by splicing tape and sampling this and that aspect from the multitrack and layering in new synth instrumentation. THAT has become what a lot of mixing has become. Only....no one ever hears the NOT sucky version. I can't name ONE 12" remix I ever preferred in the day...,they were at best simply more repetitive version....at worst, those reimagined ones would take perfectly good pop BAND recordings and make them into an EDM piece. I recently made this connection between the new paradigm and remixes when I got those Belinda Carlisle reissues--the ones with a whole second CD of every Bside and 12" remix from the album era....I both LOVE Belinda....and can't stomach those second discs. Especially after the point where samplers could sample the whole vocal bus.....and the remixes are literally all synths a drum machines with the vocals triggered over top.
The bringing of DJ/remix/mashup culture. And frankly, where I get off. I didn't understand it then. I don't now, despite decades of it growing more and more popular.
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Post by lolo on Jul 17, 2015 8:14:28 GMT -6
Reverb. I always struggle to get the reverb sounds that I'm looking for and the amounts that I want. This... I can sit for hoursgoing through different reverbs and even them im still not sure if its right |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 17, 2015 8:26:07 GMT -6
The Bricasti is right, you just need a lot of cash.
Lolo, try this, it's obvious and simple. When I track something I put a little reverb in the mix, (Relab XL480). When I mixdown, I try a couple of settings. Yesterday, I had a problem track, I switched from large HD Room, to Mid-Size HD Room, and voila! My track was in the pocket. Try not to fret too much, just try the presets first.
I have UAD's 1176 and La2 packages, as well as the big bundle of Waves plugs. Only recently, I began using the CLA 1176 plug, to save UAD DSP power. Damned if I didn't click on the acoustic guitar setting on two acoustics panned hard left and right, and they sat there like glue. I barely looked at presets for two years, and only recently got more experimental.
Second case in point, the UAD Ampex ATR-102 tape sim, I've used it on every mix at the 30ips mastering setting, I ran a track without it, and it was better, then on another track, I tried the "smooth vocal" preset on the 2 bus, because the vocal was uhh.. not smooth, and it worked nicely on the entire mix, saving me the trouble of having to redo the vocal, which was a great take that sounded terrible.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 17, 2015 8:34:23 GMT -6
One of my biggest mistakes has been thinking I can EQ my way to anything. I need to spend more picking the right the original source and less trying to EQ the wrong one.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2015 11:07:31 GMT -6
Let me tell you what I think 98% of musicians' biggest issue with mixing is.....promise it will lead to my own. They over think it....and place too much importance on it, both psychologically, and intentionally punting every single choice until that time. This has the effect of the working mix, thus inspiration sounding of poo and while there's some logic in putting off everything until mix time when you aren't experienced enough to make solid calls in real time on the way in....the logic functionally only works if you then have someone WITH said experience mix it for you. The more you leave and rely on in mixing, and particularly for content....ie "maybe mute guitar number three hear and push number two up"....the more objectivity and tech experience you need to juggle all that--else you're simply spinning knobs until you think you've got something. Shoot me now. So, my own.....is the opposite. Now that musicians are mixing themselves, they are using it as part of the creative process....and ironically leaning on "mastering" to do what mixing used to....and I can't hang. I just can't. I have no capacity or interest in rearranging or reimagining your work. I literally had someone once comment that "why would anyone pay you to just Eq, compress their tracks, and create a sense of space for them?" ....and I knew the game had changed. That IS all mixing did for 40 years. 50? It was about putting everything in balance...getting everything it's own space and articulation....deciding what components needed to be louder for a piece to "work" or "groove"....what used to happen in pop music is you would have "remix" artists do extended dance mixes by splicing tape and sampling this and that aspect from the multitrack and layering in new synth instrumentation. THAT has become what a lot of mixing has become. Only....no one ever hears the NOT sucky version. I can't name ONE 12" remix I ever preferred in the day...,they were at best simply more repetitive version....at worst, those reimagined ones would take perfectly good pop BAND recordings and make them into an EDM piece. I recently made this connection between the new paradigm and remixes when I got those Belinda Carlisle reissues--the ones with a whole second CD of every Bside and 12" remix from the album era....I both LOVE Belinda....and can't stomach those second discs. Especially after the point where samplers could sample the whole vocal bus.....and the remixes are literally all synths a drum machines with the vocals triggered over top. The bringing of DJ/remix/mashup culture. And frankly, where I get off. I didn't understand it then. I don't now, despite decades of it growing more and more popular. That is very, very true. Mixing has now become producing. Because the music is mostly about the production these days. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2015 11:10:15 GMT -6
I think my biggest fault is not walking away enough. These days I don't have tons of time, so I tend to try and get things done as quickly as possible because I only have so much time. But man, when you have been mixing for three hours without a break, you can totally be deceived. Also, referencing mixes. I haven't done this enough in the past.
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Post by Ward on Jul 17, 2015 12:44:41 GMT -6
I often have the lead vocal between 0.4 and 1db louder than it should be.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jul 17, 2015 13:36:27 GMT -6
Reverb. I always struggle to get the reverb sounds that I'm looking for and the amounts that I want. This... I can sit for hoursgoing through different reverbs and even them im still not sure if its right Reverb is tricky. A lot of times we are adjusting amounts of it when we should be adjusting eq of it. Lest we forget that reverb itself is a voice in a mix. Would we simply add any other voice to a mix without considering the eq? Nope, but we do it with reverb all the time. And delay and any other effect we choose, I'm still guilty of it because I'm lazy. And I know better. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jul 17, 2015 13:37:56 GMT -6
One of my biggest mistakes has been thinking I can EQ my way to anything. I need to spend more picking the right the original source and less trying to EQ the wrong one. Great point. |
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Post by svart on Jul 18, 2015 8:02:55 GMT -6
I often have the lead vocal between 0.4 and 1db louder than it should be. I frequently have the vocal up too loud. Bands are always asking for lower vocals. I dunno, I suppose I like vocals a little hot. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 18, 2015 8:10:18 GMT -6
It's possible you just like great singers svart. and you're mixing as if those singers are top of the line?
Lately, I've listened closely to Dierks Bentley's "Home", and Dwight Yoakam's "Second Hand Heart", and those vocals are HUGE, yet they fit the songs perfectly. And oh, those guys can really sing.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 18, 2015 8:22:04 GMT -6
One of my biggest mistakes has been thinking I can EQ my way to anything. I need to spend more picking the right the original source and less trying to EQ the wrong one. I often let my personal aesthetic get in the way and find myself guilty of trying to make a source something it's not. IE, turn a 20" kick into a 26" kick haha |
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Post by unit7 on Jul 18, 2015 9:15:11 GMT -6
The most scary mistake I did was on a project I mixed where the singer had a 'whistling' thing happening on almost every 'ffff' on every track. The whistling frequency were pretty high up, like between 9.5-11k. The worst thing was that they were different all the time, so I had to check every spot, find the frequency and notch out very narrow, like 10-15dB. I really learned to hate that particular consonant!.. Anyway, to do this I looped the spot, used an eq plug to find the frequency by boosting 15dB very narrow Q, and then copied that frequency to the same eq in ProTools Audiosuite and processed. Then.. on one track I forgot to turn off the eq, printing the mix with that narrow band 15dB boost at around 10k on the lead vocal. Noone heard it, not the producer, arranger or artist, not even the mastering guy.. Luckily I listened to the master before the album went to print. Browsed each song for a minute, and on that song I jumped out of my chair and probably screamed something, opened the ProTools session and and found what I suspected, alerted everybody, printed a new mix and happy ending. Heavy sigh.
edit: Why I didn't hear it myself while printing the mix? After the 15th half hour session of notching 9k+Hz tones I probably hated the tune, the singer, music, ProTools, my studio and the music business to the degree that I just turned off the volume..
The most remarkable mistake I've heard of was a friend of mine mixing one song for one of the top artists in Sweden in the 80s. He got a call from the mastering engineer asking if mixing in mono was deliberate.. My friend fixed it of course, still being very cool about it, saying 'Suit themselves if they call me!'. I'm trying to remember that when having Harakiri moments, like the one above.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jul 18, 2015 11:48:12 GMT -6
For me, not having enough great material or performances to mix. Too many posers out there.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 18, 2015 12:19:27 GMT -6
Soloing. Doh!!
I end up sucking out all the 300-ish in everything. Stuff sounds lovely soloed but...No guts left in the track.
Do-over.
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Post by formatcyes on Jul 18, 2015 16:45:22 GMT -6
Whats mixing?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 18, 2015 16:46:48 GMT -6
How about the biggest mixing mistake I didn't make?
I was doing my first major label album in a world class studio, with world class engineers and a well known producer, with two big hit records out.
When I was tracking my guitar solo's, I kept hearing a sound, and it was bugging me. I asked the engineers about it and they shrugged their shoulders. I tried to play through, but it was bugging me so much, I stopped the session, put my foot down, walked into the control room and said, look, I'm not doing anything until you find out what that sound is.
Roll eyes all around, giving me a fuck you, we want to go home look, but they indulged the "talent" and called in the technician, who after 10-15 minutes discovered an ultra low frequency tone was being printed on tape. It was low enough that it would have caused the arm on a turntable to jump if it made it through the mastering process. We would have had to recall 100.000 albums, (the size of the first printing). But they didn't hear it. Sheepishly, they continued the session, and from then on, I resolved to trust my ears first, and it's served me well ever since.
It took some balls to challenge those guys on their turf, but that's the way I was. After all, it was my work being put out for the general public, most people could care less which name was on the small print credits on the back of an album.
99.9% of the time, people don't buy records because of the engineer or the producer.
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