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Post by scumbum on Jul 2, 2015 21:48:03 GMT -6
Drum heads are still a black science to me. Fresh heads are nice and bright, which helps in the overheads because now they're closer to the same brightness as the drummers cheapo cymbals, but that's not always what you want. Some people also want fresher heads because they're easier to tune, but often really bad *boinky* sound drum heads are due to them having been mistensioned from day one. There's an awful lot of drummers who simply can't do this stuff, which is a shame. I think the combination of the difficulty required in getting the exact pitch from the drum plus the relative infrequency that's required of it means they don't get the practice. On that note I'm a big fan of tuning both sides of a tom to the same pitch, then dampening after if I need the decay to be shorter. Anyone else in my camp? I tune toms to the same pitch on both sides . I also use a $20 Korg guitar tuner with a built in mic to tune my drums . I like using the tuner because its fast and reliable . Once you know where the drums sound good you can get repeatable results quickly . |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 2, 2015 23:37:59 GMT -6
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Post by gouge on Jul 2, 2015 23:57:43 GMT -6
I got a mate whos a fairly experienced drum tech to come in and tune the kit.
then I took drum dial measurements so each time the kit comes out I can get it in the ball park very quickly. from their the drummers usually tune to suit.
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Post by scumbum on Jul 3, 2015 0:04:36 GMT -6
Thats cool . I'd like to try that too . |
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Post by keymod on Jul 3, 2015 3:58:31 GMT -6
So is the point of tuning drums to match the key/pitch of each song, or to sound best within itself? Playing live, drummers don't re-tune for each song in a set list, correct? Or, should they be doing that??
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 3, 2015 4:54:44 GMT -6
Tuning your drums so they sound best is probably the best idea, since most of the time drums don't have distinct singable pitchs. Also because Jazz exists and they still use tom toms. That said I've heard both approaches and they both clearly work.
Things like Congas are different, the single head usually has clear tones. Asuch when most people use them they're crap because they have massive key clashes. Did a session before where the chord progression was G major - F major. Producer commented it sounded good on the G chord, but on the F they sounded rank. I spotted the tuning error on playback - G and B. The B was sitting against the F as a b5. So we tuned the higher conga down to A. Worked fine.
However I think that sort of approach for an 8 peice kit is a path to madness.
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Post by M57 on Jul 3, 2015 5:20:08 GMT -6
It seems to me that "perfectly" tuned drum would have a higher inclination to clash in specific keys. I find that the distinction between pitched and unpitched sits on a continuum, which muddles the issue somewhat.
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Post by bluenoise on Jul 3, 2015 7:28:53 GMT -6
I track a lot of drums. I'm fortunate to have a really good in house drum tech. He knows his craft and we know the room so we usually get to where we need to (or are asked to) pretty fast and harmless. I'd say knowing your sonic destination makes the journey more pleasant and yields better results. Regarding tuning, for us is always result driven. If someting is tuned "perfectly" but keeps ringing in sympathy and gets in the way, it gets tuned differently, etc. Sometimes even after tuning you loosen a lug all the way and that's all you needed. Gels, tape, an upside down head above the other head, a tea towel, nothing at all, whatever gets you there... Back to the original question, samples sometimes are needed because of some genre conventions, but with the right tools they are not a must. At all.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 3, 2015 9:41:25 GMT -6
I track a lot of drums. I'm fortunate to have a really good in house drum tech. He knows his craft and we know the room so we usually get to where we need to (or are asked to) pretty fast and harmless. I'd say knowing your sonic destination makes the journey more pleasant and yields better results. Regarding tuning, for us is always result driven. If someting is tuned "perfectly" but keeps ringing in sympathy and gets in the way, it gets tuned differently, etc. Sometimes even after tuning you loosen a lug all the way and that's all you needed. Gels, tape, an upside down head above the other head, a tea towel, nothing at all, whatever gets you there... Back to the original question, samples sometimes are needed because of some genre conventions, but with the right tools they are not a must. At all. May I specify my question. To me, if its real tracked or XLN DRUMS etc., all drums have naturally some kind of space feeling. And I also cant kill them completely in OH or Room Mics. But now I want the kick in a Pop Ballad dry -very dry-. There is no other chance than a sample on the kick?  |
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Post by lpedrum on Jul 3, 2015 9:45:37 GMT -6
So is the point of tuning drums to match the key/pitch of each song, or to sound best within itself? Playing live, drummers don't re-tune for each song in a set list, correct? Or, should they be doing that?? Rarely would a drummer retune drums during a live show. I often use a classic 13", 16" tom set up and tune them to B and E (floor tom) because that often sits well with guitar music and is in the natural range of those size drums. Tuning toms when recording really depends on various factors. If you're riding a tom it can help to have it in tune with the key of the song. But for basic fills it's usually better to tune the drums to where they sound great. They will not "clash" with the key. The snare can be a different issue however, especially if you're going for an open ringy sound. I (and most drummers) often try to match the ring to a root or fifth of the song so that it will sit harmoniously in the mix. There are times though when having the drums be dissonant to the key seems to work well. Tuning can become more of an issue with close miking. If you're going for more of a roomy Bonham type drum sound the actual drum notes don't come into play as much. As with most things related to recording there are no hard and fast rules about tuning drums to the song. Just do what sounds good. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 3, 2015 10:56:03 GMT -6
But now I want the kick in a Pop Ballad dry -very dry-. There is no other chance than a sample on the kick? Sure there is. People do all sorts of things. Build a cave around the kick drum, a long carpeted tunnel out of road cases, etc. In effect a 'iso booth' for each piece on the kit, as much as is practical. It is done. What did we just see in TapeOp (I think) in the last year or two, a pic of a guys method for isolating HH from S better; it looked really crazy. Like a sofa fell out of the sky, exploded, and part of it stuck to a stand around a HH/S setup. Anyone remember the guy or the mag issue offhand? |
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Post by scumbum on Jul 3, 2015 11:59:57 GMT -6
So is the point of tuning drums to match the key/pitch of each song, or to sound best within itself? Playing live, drummers don't re-tune for each song in a set list, correct? Or, should they be doing that?? Rarely would a drummer retune drums during a live show. I often use a classic 13", 16" tom set up and tune them to B and E (floor tom) because that often sits well with guitar music and is in the natural range of those size drums. Tuning toms when recording really depends on various factors. If you're riding a tom it can help to have it in tune with the key of the song. But for basic fills it's usually better to tune the drums to where they sound great. They will not "clash" with the key. The snare can be a different issue however, especially if you're going for an open ringy sound. I (and most drummers) often try to match the ring to a root or fifth of the song so that it will sit harmoniously in the mix. There are times though when having the drums be dissonant to the key seems to work well. Tuning can become more of an issue with close miking. If you're going for more of a roomy Bonham type drum sound the actual drum notes don't come into play as much. As with most things related to recording there are no hard and fast rules about tuning drums to the song. Just do what sounds good. I find close micing the toms makes tuning much more critical . When I do Glyn Johns setup the toms can be a little out of tune and still sound good . Close micing is like a microscope on the toms . I use the same sizes but tune the floor tom to B and rack tom to E . If you ride the floor tom then tuning is more critical to the key of the song . I find it especially if the song is in a flat key and the toms are tuned standard like B and E , going B flat , E flat sounds better . |
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Post by scumbum on Jul 3, 2015 12:02:42 GMT -6
I track a lot of drums. I'm fortunate to have a really good in house drum tech. He knows his craft and we know the room so we usually get to where we need to (or are asked to) pretty fast and harmless. I'd say knowing your sonic destination makes the journey more pleasant and yields better results. Regarding tuning, for us is always result driven. If someting is tuned "perfectly" but keeps ringing in sympathy and gets in the way, it gets tuned differently, etc. Sometimes even after tuning you loosen a lug all the way and that's all you needed. Gels, tape, an upside down head above the other head, a tea towel, nothing at all, whatever gets you there... Back to the original question, samples sometimes are needed because of some genre conventions, but with the right tools they are not a must. At all. May I specify my question. To me, if its real tracked or XLN DRUMS etc., all drums have naturally some kind of space feeling. And I also cant kill them completely in OH or Room Mics. But now I want the kick in a Pop Ballad dry -very dry-. There is no other chance than a sample on the kick? Take off the front skin and stick the mic in the kick . That should give you a dry sound . Maybe put a blanket over the front of the kick to cut out cymbal bleed . |
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Post by bluenoise on Jul 3, 2015 14:53:49 GMT -6
I track a lot of drums. I'm fortunate to have a really good in house drum tech. He knows his craft and we know the room so we usually get to where we need to (or are asked to) pretty fast and harmless. I'd say knowing your sonic destination makes the journey more pleasant and yields better results. Regarding tuning, for us is always result driven. If someting is tuned "perfectly" but keeps ringing in sympathy and gets in the way, it gets tuned differently, etc. Sometimes even after tuning you loosen a lug all the way and that's all you needed. Gels, tape, an upside down head above the other head, a tea towel, nothing at all, whatever gets you there... Back to the original question, samples sometimes are needed because of some genre conventions, but with the right tools they are not a must. At all. May I specify my question. To me, if its real tracked or XLN DRUMS etc., all drums have naturally some kind of space feeling. And I also cant kill them completely in OH or Room Mics. But now I want the kick in a Pop Ballad dry -very dry-. There is no other chance than a sample on the kick? Well, not really. As scumbum pointed out, single tension + blanket on top + close miking + damping the head (or usign predamped heads as evans emad or the like) will give you a dry as hell bass drum sound. Throw in some transient designer come mix time if needed... I guess voila! |
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Post by wiz on Jul 3, 2015 15:35:32 GMT -6
To get a dry kick sound without samples
A couple of ideas...
If recording, tunnel the kick (build a cave over the front and put the mic in there)
Track it separate... done.... dry kick.
Mixing
gate the kick, and HPF the overheads to the point where the kick is dry as you want.
When tracking, if you think you might need it, which you probably will 8) get the player at the end of the pass, after the kit has quietened down, get him to do 4 hits on the kick, 4 on the snare, 4 on the rack tom, right around the kit. Including cymbal hits with and without the kick drum, side stick, what ever is in the tune.
This way, if you have to replace or enhance something, you are using the actual sound of the drums, rather than sample.
Also, don't forget a gated oscillator can enhance a kick drum as well.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 3, 2015 18:52:29 GMT -6
It help to keep your OH's above the kit in that scenario, to keep them from picking up much of the kick. Not sure how much look you'll have with the room mics.
I have done it before where I've used a compressor sidechained on the room mics sidechained to the snare because I liked the kit balance initially but in the mix it made the snare too washed out. A similar approach but using the kick mic should work just as fine you'll always needs quite long releases for room though, 120-200mS or even longer depending on the reverb time.
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