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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 26, 2015 18:52:55 GMT -6
Well this ain't good, I was searching some API info on the google machine and came across this! Dated June 12, 2015... WTH? I'd like to see the details as to why, and what they're going after Jeff for? I don't get it, Neve has to deal with CLONES from Heritage, BAE, AML etc...., and there is no problem because it's legit, Jeff's products aren't even clones? Actually IMO, they're much BETTER than API's stuff! Seriously, Vp28's, FC 526's, Missing links, DI's on VP's, output stages, Heider's, 51x boxes! the list goes on and on! These are all great and original friggin products, it's not even arguable! Besides, API is not the company they used to be, they can't even make a 2520 op amp sound anywhere near the sound quality that Scott Leibers has accomplished. Yeah the CAPI name flirts with flattering API, but so what! so do thousands of other co's/products out there, it's not illegal! I can't think of anything that looks dubious on JS's part. I'm guessing API doesn't have a leg to stand on, and they're just trying to strong arm a small co guy who has better ideas than they do to get him out of the game? What they should have done is offer Jeff a high dollar position as lead designer for API, then they would have killed 2 birds with one stone by achieving WAAAAY better products, and eliminating superior competition. I do remember reading that API has been bankrupt, debunked, dormant and resurrected, as well as changed ownership a number of times over the years, that hardly sets a precedent for iron clad protection from competition moving in with even identical ideas, let alone the original ideas Jeff has. I remember reading on another thread somewhere out there about the Knobs being a big deal to api, and that they tried to copyright them 30 years after the fact, even though they actually purchased them from some other company to begin with? I really want to see the breakdown of what's inside the API lawsuit, Jeff seems to be quite careful toward being original with design, and flattering the classics with the look at the same time, he has nothing anywhere near to what API is doing today(why would he?), i see nothing at all that could be considered illegal infringement. If anyone has any info on this, or whats listed as grievance in the suit? i'd like to know what is?.. damn... |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 26, 2015 19:01:45 GMT -6
Let's see what Jeff has to say, some people sue because they can or think it might scare others. I know Jeff has had issues with Larry from API Before., but API was way over reaching!
Let's hope this isn't to much of a PITA for Jeff!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 26, 2015 19:02:25 GMT -6
Let's see what Jeff has to say, some people sue because they can or think it might scare others. I know Jeff has had issues with Larry from API Before., but API was way over reaching!
Let's hope this isn't to much of a PITA for Jeff!
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Post by gouge on Jun 26, 2015 19:05:12 GMT -6
the page linked says it's about trademark infringement.
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Post by dandeurloo on Jun 26, 2015 19:25:54 GMT -6
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Post by superwack on Jun 26, 2015 19:36:01 GMT -6
My guess would be its that CAPI is too close to API from a marketing/logo/trademark standpoint and not because JS is making semi-related gear. BAE making a 1073MP is fine as it can't be argued that anyone would be confused about who's making what but a company making something that looked and sounded like a 1073 calling themselves AiMS-NEVEr would probably get some notice from the lawyers of the company that owns Neve today. Maybe Jeff could rebrand as STEIGEAR  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 26, 2015 20:00:51 GMT -6
What moron would think that ordering a kit from CAPI is ordering from API? "Dear API, I've been building one of your kits, but I can't find anything about it on your site..." They claim the knobs are infringing their trademark, but didn't Vemaline originally make the knobs? They then trademarked their own knobs (VERY similar) - then produced them in China. Guess where Jeff gets his knobs - Vemaline. So Jeff uses Vemaline knobs, not API. It also claims that the VP26 is a copy of the API 512 C. Love to see that on the stand. "Do they share the same Input Transformer? No...Same output transformer? No. Does the 512 include an output attenuator? No. Same opamps? No..." And the list goes on. handlesunlimited.thomasnet.com/viewitems/knobs-aluminum/s-aluminum-2-00-series-knobs-contemporary-aluminum?&plpver=10&forward=1 |
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Post by sopwith on Jun 26, 2015 20:17:36 GMT -6
Deleted my previous post after reading JKs - sounds like BS on most counts.
[edit]
Just checked the Vemaline site - damn they make some really nice knobs.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 26, 2015 20:17:40 GMT -6
What moron would think that ordering a kit from CAPI is ordering from API? "Dear API, I've been building one of your kits, but I can't find anything about it on your site..." They claim the knobs are infringing their trademark, but didn't Vemaline originally make the knobs? They then trademarked their own knobs (VERY similar) - then produced them in China. Guess where Jeff gets his knobs - Vemaline. So Jeff uses Vemaline knobs, not API. It also claims that the VP26 is a copy of the API 512 C. Love to see that on the stand. "Do they share the same Input Transformer? No...Same output transformer? No. Does the 512 include an output attenuator? No. Same opamps? No..." And the list goes on. handlesunlimited.thomasnet.com/viewitems/knobs-aluminum/s-aluminum-2-00-series-knobs-contemporary-aluminum?&plpver=10&forward=1 well there ya go on the knobs! that could be an all time backfire on API, the word is gonna get out on this whole debacle(we should make sure it does), and everyone is going to find out about where to buy those different from API knobs LEGALLY, and then what? is API going to sue everyone for copyright infringement on the knobs they DONT even own? and are slightly different from theirs lol, wow, how ridiculous, they should've left well enough alone, Jeff's whole thing is unique and very niche oriented, and those of us who reside in that niche world would never pay for an inferior product from API, the whole thing is just a huge waste of time and money, and unfortunately is going to hit our pal in a totally unjustified way  |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 26, 2015 20:41:37 GMT -6
If they are claiming the VP26 is a 512/313 ripoff are they going after Warm? BAE?
The thing is and Jeff and I have had this discussion before, Saul Walker was not a " Everything must be done in house " kind of guy !
The 252o wasn't his idea nor the DOA based Transformer coupled pre! if Larry is calling this stuff his intelligent property , chances are he is going to set up him self to be on the other side of a lawsuit !
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Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2015 21:27:59 GMT -6
Even though it's not Jeff's name IN PRINT, a ton of people refer to CAPI as "Classic API" instead of Classic Audio Products of Illinois. I see it all over the interwebs.
PS - I totally "get" why API is pissed and suing, but the only people they should be pissed at is themselves. They've been ridding the API name for decades now. Maybe time to pony up and make some new products and up the ante. It's in Jeff's benefit that there are at least a half dozen API clones out there and is API suing them?
PPS - I wish Jeff all the best in this. ANY lawsuit whether warranted or not is a huge stress and a massive pita. Best wishes Jeff!! <thumbsup>
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Post by sopwith on Jun 26, 2015 22:40:30 GMT -6
Honestly - this just makes me want to buy CAPI more |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 26, 2015 22:58:25 GMT -6
If API has their way, there won't be any more CAPI to buy.
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Post by sopwith on Jun 26, 2015 23:01:50 GMT -6
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 26, 2015 23:08:23 GMT -6
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Post by superwack on Jun 26, 2015 23:19:19 GMT -6
It IS total BS in any logical and practical sense but... we're talking about lawyers here who see a way to shake down someone.
None of us would think ordering a CAPI is ordering an API but, sadly, the lawyers don't have to convince us... they have to convince a judge or jury or arbitrator that their clients are called API and manufacture black audio gear with blue letters and silver knobs and there is a company called CAPI and manufacture black audio gear with blue letters and silver knobs and that's just plum confusin' to folks. Even though Jeff's company is technically called Classic Audio Products of Illinois, everyone (including probably Jeff himself) call it CAPI - even API is technically Automated Processes Inc. so they are also using a nickname professionally (sadly, another similarity)
These lawyers will find someone stupid to support their case. Remember when they sued McDonald's for serving unhealthy food and the guy they put up on the stand just kept saying "I was lead to believe, because the wrapper said 100% real beef, that the food was good for me" over and over again. or when the Rolling Stone's lawyers tried to cease-and-desist the RS Tribute band "Sticky Fingers" or VH's lawyers with "Atomic Punks" - both totally legal ventures but there was a perceived payday. How about the latest songwriting cases with Farrell? People are morons.
As drBill points out, API is a shell of their former company but that actually makes them (legally) more dangerous. The one thing they have is their name, logo, etc. When digidesign bought Focusrite it certainly wasn't to further Rupert's work or profit from those awful green rockfaced garbage modules - it was to be able to claim the shit chip pres they put in their Mbox where the "legendary Focusrite preamps" from the company Rupert founded. I would imagine that - whoever owns API now - bought them in part for their place/name, etc. and will do what they can to profit from that (other than, you know, actually improve their gear, innovate, etc.) I guarantee some scum sucking lawyer came up with this idea when the first press of Jeff's work came out and they've been waiting for a certain amount of success before trying to suck him dry.
I do not condone this, I wish Jeff the best (love his gear) As for the Neve/Clone thing... Neve is a British company and although I have no idea - it could very well be that the intellectual property laws in the EU are totally different or maybe Neve has a case but thinks it petty to go after the tiny market of boutique audio clones? Who knows but I'll support Jeff .
(ironic footnote: to most of the 'legitimate' world including my wife who works in the energy field, API is the American Petroleum Institute... the audio company barely makes the first page of google results)
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 26, 2015 23:39:26 GMT -6
A good idea might be a Kickstarter or GoFundMe to offset the legal costs Jeff's gonna face...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 27, 2015 0:00:39 GMT -6
it might just be easier to change the name. I really don't think it would hurt him. And if he's moving to Nashville, it could be a fresh start for the company. The question though, is if API is out for blood. They could never win damages though. But they could drag a lawsuit out over years and a lawyer at $350 per hour for several years is not an option. I wouldn't think the patent for those designs are still applicable. Don't they only last twenty years or so? Also - API doesn't currently manufacture the 3232, so it's a moot point anyway. Maybe joelhamilton can speak to this - he has a law degree. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 27, 2015 0:02:45 GMT -6
And wouldn't API have to sue every other company making a 312? Why just Jeff? To me, that says that it's not about the design, it's about the trademark.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 27, 2015 0:50:44 GMT -6
it might just be easier to change the name. I really don't think it would hurt him. And if he's moving to Nashville, it could be a fresh start for the company. The question though, is if API is out for blood. They could never win damages though. But they could drag a lawsuit out over years and a lawyer at $350 per hour for several years is not an option. I wouldn't think the patent for those designs are still applicable. Don't they only last twenty years or so? Also - API doesn't currently manufacture the 3232, so it's a moot point anyway. Maybe joelhamilton can speak to this - he has a law degree. I have a US/international patent, they last 17 1/2 years, NoFilterChuck the patent that api had has to be long since gone, trademarks and copyrights are a different story. If Jeff decides to fight them, it is going to take a lot of cash, we should do a kickstarter or figure out a way to help him out, maybe find a cool pro audio enthusiast lawyer who will file counter suits pro bono(trade for some kits lol) and slog API with some of their own medicine. I'd be down for buying some more VP28's and bypass paypal or any sort of paper trail to keep the vultures from swooping. Maybe a rename would just make the whole thing go away? and it really doesn't matter what they look like, jeff is a badass designer, who's pieces quite literally speak for themselves. I'm going to pay for the 18 pages unless someone else did? and read what they're claiming. |
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Post by ionian on Jun 27, 2015 1:31:06 GMT -6
Never been a fan of API since their BS Vpr thing. I've called them out on the purple site to their face before for their sleaziness and they always disappear from the thread and never address me (That APISez guy).
The VPR thing is so full of shit and they are clearly treating people like idiots.
Really sad as I've always wanted some 525s but I absolutely refuse to have anything, from power supplies, to modules, to rack units - anything with the API logo in my studio.
And I'm not shy about letting people know, when I work with them, why I dislike API so much. I've opened a few professional engineer's eyes, to put it gently.
People don't really have the time to stay on top of that but it's amazing that all you have to do is tell some people, point out some examples and let them investigate further on their own and a few days later I get a call saying, "Dude, I had no idea they were like that. I keep finding shadier and shadier stuff...I'm not buying jack from them..."
There's a couple of companies whose practices I've pointed out to engineers on sessions. It's amazing, that in such a small business, at least at the upper levels, how little these companies think goodwill is worth. But I've seen firsthand how much it's cost these companies in lost product once people see how they behave. And in such a niche business, the loss is definitely felt, no matter how small.
P.s. I wonder what Paul Wolff's opinion would be on this mess.
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Post by gouge on Jun 27, 2015 1:33:39 GMT -6
Ultimately I think Jeff will change something which is exactly what api want. Even if they loose this round.
Api will just keep at it. From a business point of view it's probably easier for Jeff ro rebrand regardless of whether he morally should or not.
That will see off any future action.
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Post by keymod on Jun 27, 2015 3:57:57 GMT -6
Seems like api must sleep in the same bed as monster cable. Bullies suck.
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Post by axelerator on Jun 27, 2015 4:04:36 GMT -6
..Thumbs up for Jeff !
I certainly would take part of a kickstarter thing if needed ..
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Post by RicFoxx on Jun 27, 2015 6:49:43 GMT -6
If I were API I would not be suing Jeff I would vetting him and offering a Buttload of $$$$$$ to come design some products for them because his products are far superior to the current line of API. I just sold my (2) API Channel Strips after comparing it to my VP 28's. Good luck Jeff. I think re-naming wouldn't be a big deal at this point as the word is getting out on Jeff's stuff.
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