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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 24, 2015 19:06:57 GMT -6
There are so many K84-ish mics, but who has access to try them? It's too risky to buy unheard.
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Post by drbill on Jun 24, 2015 19:44:54 GMT -6
I'll make that a double AMEN! As an aside, the KM84 is a great mic for "reach" in a poor room environment. You can easily "tune" in the amount of room tone and get back off that instrument. I'm curious, are you aware of a currently manufactured mic that would share this characteristic with the KM84? That's quite a unique aspect that's pretty unusual from my experience. There is probably some other mics around that share that "reach", but tonally the closest thing I've heard to a KM84 is the Michael Joly modded Oktava 012 SDC's. They don't quite have the "reach" though.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 24, 2015 20:37:50 GMT -6
The K84 handles transients so well, I don't think I use any compression when tracking with them. Occasionally I use some kind of compression later to keep acoustic guitars in the pocket. Or should I say to "shave transients"? I guess that's what compression comes down to mostly.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 25, 2015 10:17:37 GMT -6
For the life of me I don't understand why Neumann doesn't just reissue the KM-84. It came out at the same time as the U-87. People have been trying and failing to equal it forever.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 25, 2015 10:26:50 GMT -6
For the life of me I don't understand why Neumann doesn't just reissue the KM-84. It came out at the same time as the U-87. People have been trying and failing to equal it forever. The hope is the 47 FET is a success and it leads to a KM84 reissue.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2015 11:30:37 GMT -6
You have to wonder if the pro audio market is so small that these big companies are being run by ceo's that have no knowledge of the industry. Neumann's absolute disregard in listening to its customers is almost laughable.
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Post by svart on Jun 25, 2015 12:03:34 GMT -6
You have to wonder if the pro audio market is so small that these big companies are being run by ceo's that have no knowledge of the industry. Neumann's absolute disregard in listening to its customers is almost laughable. Who knows. With large companies like Sennheiser, they first look at the market, then look at profit margins. If a product, no matter how seminal to the industry at some point, does not meet margin then they will never produce it because at some point it will be a sinking ship. It seems like this is what is going on with the KM84. Something about it makes it extremely expensive to produce, and no matter how many folks ask for it, Sennheiser might have to sell it for 2K each just to pay for the initial and continued production costs. Who's gonna pay 2K for a single KM84? Not me. Probably not most folks who crow about wanting one either. As I've learned in the design industry and witnessed in the DIY community, everyone says they want something until it's time to pay up.. Then suddenly the demand drys up when the final prices are set. It seems people always lead themselves to believe that the price will be their idea of reasonable, and it never meets that expectation.
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Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2015 12:50:18 GMT -6
The problem isn't the cost. It isn't the parts. It's the desire to do it. They make the 184. Essentially the same body, the same capsule. Just minus the transformer. How much can that cost? Not much. But Sennheiser/Neumann just doesn't want to make an 84. So I don't hold ANY hope that a 47FET success will lead to a KM84 reissue. It's not going to happen without new management / direction.
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Post by svart on Jun 25, 2015 13:15:26 GMT -6
The problem isn't the cost. It isn't the parts. It's the desire to do it. They make the 184. Essentially the same body, the same capsule. Just minus the transformer. How much can that cost? Not much. But Sennheiser/Neumann just doesn't want to make an 84. So I don't hold ANY hope that a 47FET success will lead to a KM84 reissue. It's not going to happen without new management / direction. The KM84 internals are quite a bit more complex in build than the KM184. The KM84 has mutliple levels of PCB structure, with wiring in between, which can only be done by hand, etc. Think one person building one an hour.. The KM184 is a single PCB with almost no human work needed to build it. They are actually quite flimsy too, I've repaired mine a couple times. Think a machine spitting out 50 an hour.. Couple this with ROHS and the effect of essentially having to source all new parts which are ROHS compliant, and they probably see that there would be research, development and production line bringup all based on the new ROHS designs, and then it would still be different in some aspects from the old KM84.. (Cue the DIY thought process of changing one part and it changing the whole sound, etc) You're talking a couple million $$ investment just to bring the KM84 back from the grave, if you could even reproduce the parts..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 25, 2015 13:24:41 GMT -6
Having worked with and had a relationship with Sennhieser USAs top brass let me give you this percepective. These guys are not about living in the past, they see the whole vintage recreation / clone thing as a niche market, they are not set up for small batch manufacturing. The engineers there are driven by marketing and they see growth and dollars in MI and the more classical part of recording. I hope the 47 FET reboot that even Klause seams to be impressed. The KM84 is everybody's greatest desire but at what price point? You gotta hit that right and remember as great as it is, it's not a Silver Bullet. Also like all these classics, a ton of the potential buyers have neve heard a KM84 and are going to find its not what they wanted it to be. Unlike FLEA or Telefunken USA the guys at Sennhieser, know this and put the $ into what the real potential market is before they start a project.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 25, 2015 15:40:05 GMT -6
The 47FET was a total face-palm, a huge disappointment when it came out.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 25, 2015 16:51:53 GMT -6
I had two original 47FET's in my house, just to try. I picked the one I thought sounded better, then my wife Janet began tracking a vocal, it took about a minute before she said, "give me my mic", meaning my UM-17 Blueline. The 47FET was such a dud, really. A $3,000 kick drum mic ain't worth nuthin' to me.
When we've mentioned the K84 and the 47 FET, I've often wondered why Neumann doesn't simply offer the original U47 in as close a version as they can make. They'd could easily $6,500 for it, if they really went for it.
As for transient shaving, I think Drbill's point of close miking being a huge culprit in edgy tone was dead on. I've noticed that my Dizengoff D4 helps with smoothness a little, probably from the natural tube compression. I've been running a final mix today, and it's really interesting, how changing the compressor in the 2 bus changes everything. Whenever I get it smooth enough, it's too dull, when I get the impact I want, it's too edgy. I think I need two Sta-level's in my mixdown to get what I really want.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 25, 2015 17:41:12 GMT -6
Classic mikes are classics because they were as good or better than the other classic mikes we already had in pro studios. There were always plenty of new crappola mikes being offered only they never got very far with people who already had plenty of U47s, 67s, 87s, 54s and 84s.
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Post by ionian on Jun 25, 2015 22:44:57 GMT -6
Regarding close mic'ing vs. not close mic'ing in pop music, the standard I've always felt was Ken Scott's work with Missing Persons. All their stuff all sounds like it was recorded in a big room. All the key parts, guitars, vocals, especially the drums. There's just so much room and ambience in all those recordings. Even more so than a lot of other similar productions at that time. Nothing is up against your face in those recordings.
I still put on Missing Persons and not only can I admire the musicianship and the writing, but I'm also constantly amazed at how much room (meaning space, not "room" sound) there is between the sound and the speakers, but also between each musician and Dale's singing. It's like when I listen in my car, it always sounds like each band member is 5 feet from each other and the entire band is like 2 feet from my car speakers, near the middle of my engine! And it rocks.
Great stuff...
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Post by stratboy on Jun 29, 2015 21:06:35 GMT -6
I have been looking for a KM84 clone. Yeah, I know... Has anyone tried the Advance Audio CM1084? I own a CM48SE, which I love, and Dave T. is a good guy. The CM1084 is relatively new. Do any of you know anything about it?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 30, 2015 19:47:03 GMT -6
I've not heard anything that sounds like the KM84.
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