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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2015 19:02:28 GMT -6
Btw - welcome goodhertz! I freaking love your products. Gonna be a purchase here very soon. Wish they were rtas too though...I still use pt10 on a lot of stuff. Did I see they were vst? I've been trying to move over to cubase since the whole subscription debacle with PT's.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2015 19:03:43 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 20:01:06 GMT -6
wiz : 1. If you don't export a mix in the DAWs native resolution i.e. the float format it works in, but instead in e.g. 24/96, it is highly recommended to dither with TPDF, because you will re-quantize the audio and have quantization distortion if you don't at the time you write the 24/96 format file. The internal engine of the DAW is not 24 bit the format, no matter, if this is the projct setting. If i understood everything correctly. 2. Same, because again, the audio in the DAW native float format needs to be re-quantized/changes bit depth for the DACs. I did not read anything about this in my DAWs manuals, so i do not know, if it applies the preset dither on the outs to my console during mix time. 2a. If the DAW doesn't do it, theoretically, yes, dither should be applied to the console feed with DACs and a plugin could to the job. There are several mastering plugins that have a dither option. Bob O. mentioned his preferred one a while ago but i don't remember fully (Sony Oxford?)... I will try to find out, how my DAW handles it, and in case it's needed, will have to look out for a plugin option as well... e.g. the post no.1 in this thread. There might be even free alternatives for me, triangular dither is not a proprietary thing... It might be not too hard to find out. Two loop recordings from "audio out" to "audio in" with the DAW and a program like "Virtual Audio Cable" that only streams the driver pins data. One with the internal dithering option set to "none", one set to the dither type you normally use, for me Triangular/TPDF. If the phase aligned recordings null with phase reverse, the dither has not been applied to the supposedly analog out by the DAW. It should be applied, though, as a quantization error distortion would happen at the DAC. If i understood everything correctly. 3. Uhm, yes. Doesn't sound very optimistic, right? 4. See 1. so i guess "yes" is the correct answer. From all i read, if you write to file and dither, TPDF is preferable to all other dithers, if there is any chance that another dither will be applied successively, which will definitely happen in the mastering house. At least this is covered in my DAWs manual... Let's see, if i did have a final "Aha"-effect about dither. I should by now know good enough. But i seem to forget regularly about it. But as Bob stated - the software developers are those to blame. Dither should not be of any importance to us, if the DSP engineers do their jobs appropriately. I guess this is also the reason, why the DAW developers and manuals cover this topic so sparingly. There has been an interesting question brought up about "how does quantization distortion sound?". This is interesting. Simply deactivate dither in a typical project export and compare to the dithered export. There is a difference on good monitoring between them. And the undithered export looses if i ABX them. Always. I tried this. Not tooo obvious, but it does...
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 20, 2015 20:29:24 GMT -6
Even an 8 bit file with a .1 dB gain change becomes 80+ bit audio that must be reduced to be used. Truncation distortion from signal processing causes generation loss while d*thered calculations cause less generation loss. At some point you start hearing the lack of d*thering even if it is not noticeable during a single process.
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Post by goodhertz on May 21, 2015 10:47:05 GMT -6
Bob O... so, as smallbutfine mentioned above, do you recommend TPDF as a rule? Also, assuming a recording is made using an A/D Converter at let's say 44.1/24bit but then the mix session is at 32 bit does any dither need to be applied for the 24 > 32 bit or would it only need to be at the end of the master chain to dither back down from 32 > 24 for A/D and/or file creation? Thanks for explaining this to us. Dither should only be applied when lowering the bit depth — so nothing is needed for 24 -> 32 bits. Yes, for 32 -> 24 though.
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Post by goodhertz on May 21, 2015 10:52:52 GMT -6
Btw - welcome goodhertz! I freaking love your products. Gonna be a purchase here very soon. Wish they were rtas too though...I still use pt10 on a lot of stuff. Did I see they were vst? I've been trying to move over to cubase since the whole subscription debacle with PT's. Cheers! Thank you! I hear ya on RTAS (one of our studio machines is still PT10 as well), but in effort to keep the codebase lean and mean we probably won't be supporting RTAS — it's just too old at this point. We are definitely considering VST though and are doing some surveying now to gauge the demand.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2015 11:24:57 GMT -6
It's AU, though, right? I guess I could port the AU plug in through Bluecat Patchwork for PT10.
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Post by goodhertz on May 21, 2015 15:51:58 GMT -6
It's AU, though, right? I guess I could port the AU plug in through Bluecat Patchwork for PT10. All of our plugins are AU & AAX (64 bit) at the moment. I don't think Patchwork can load a 64 bit plugin in a 32 bit app unfortunately — though let me know if it can!
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Post by kcatthedog on May 21, 2015 16:11:34 GMT -6
if its aax 64 it can run in pt 11 +.
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Post by jazznoise on May 22, 2015 20:23:08 GMT -6
Interestingly one of the earlier observations of dithering reducing error was in old World War 2 planes. The planes used mechanical computers to calculate navigation and bomb trajectory calculations.
Except as they gathered data from missions they realized the computers on the planes were now much more accurate than the previous data they'd gathered. It was deduced that the mechanicle vibrations caused by the windshear on the aircraft was, in fact, adding a mechanical noise that made them more accurate. In fact they decided to add little AC motors inside thats only job was to jiggle about and add more mechanical noise.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 22, 2015 21:27:43 GMT -6
According to Jim Johnston d*ther was an integral part of Bell Labs' digital telephone technology from the 1950s that all digital audio is derived from. The math doesn't support the notion of d*ther ever being optional which brings into question how much a lot of programmers actually know about audio DSP math. Apparently the appearance of AES papers about the importance of d*ther was quite a face palm moment for the actual experts as was Sony's "perfect sound forever" ad campaign.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 22, 2015 22:15:03 GMT -6
Ok, Bob - I've got to ask...what's up with the "d*ther?"
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 23, 2015 11:49:13 GMT -6
Dave Collins started it as a protest that we shouldn't even need to talk about it. Dave and I were both very influenced by Armin Steiner and Doug Sax. We can often finish each others sentences.
After Armin's incredible Sherwood Sax equipped studio went bust, he moved to recording film scores and also joined in a partnership, I believe with Bruce Botnick, that rented early digital gear to all of the mastering studios in Los Angeles. Dave ran the gear for all of them and ended up replacing Bernie Grundman at A&M when he left to start his own facility. Dave was among the handful of us learning about digital audio from each other on the internet during the late 1980s. He also has a tremendous sense of humor so I follow him around the net.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 23, 2015 15:24:03 GMT -6
So - why do I ever need to dither down to 16/44.1 if I never intend for hem to end up CD's? I mean, what the hell ends up on CD's now days?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 15:37:30 GMT -6
You need to d*ther down from the internal DAWs float format to any of the consumer formats files, no matter if 24/96, 24/88.2 or 16/44.1 or whatever if you did the slightest change (like the mentioned "0.1dB volume change"). All of these formats mean a change to a lower bit depth that the consumer DACs will swallow, the DAWs internal bit depth is always higher.
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Post by jazznoise on May 23, 2015 20:17:51 GMT -6
Most DAWs will apply dither on render though. PT does it automatically now from what I know, Reaper has a box for dither and dither options (noise shaping etc.).
It sometimes feels with Dither that engineers worrying about it is like car drivers inspecting air bag deployment systems. Not unimportant, but not something that should be directly in the engineer's hands. As @smallbutfine said, if they do their job, the designers should include dither when required.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 23, 2015 20:38:26 GMT -6
So - why do I ever need to dither down to 16/44.1 if I never intend for hem to end up CD's? I mean, what the hell ends up on CD's now days? You don't need to castrate the audio for any technical reason. I slipped a client some 96x24 AAC files once and he was blown away by the quality even though I had never told him they weren't 44x16.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 23, 2015 20:40:29 GMT -6
PT only applies d*ther if you export a 24 or 32 bit file to a 16 bit file. You need to take care of it for bounces and feeds to a d to a. I agree developers should have just taken care of it. Unfortunately we ended up mostly with MIDI developers and students designing our stuff rather than real audio DSP engineers.
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Post by delcampo on Jun 14, 2015 10:02:17 GMT -6
You only need d*ther on something being written to a file or sent directly to a D to A. I've been been experimenting with dither. If an internal bounce happens itb in a 32 float environment, some might argue whether dither is needed. If you go from 32 float > 24 for mix to be sent somewhere, of course dither. (though I'd tend to just give the Mastering folks a 32 file and let them do their thing) As well, Sonnox dynamics dither on all channels going "out to the console via D/A's" lately as well (for mixing-HW & re-capture into DAW, or to tape) That said, It's hard to imagine all pros, let alone hobbyists, are really applying dither to every single "out" to their desk. Interesting considerations.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 14, 2015 11:11:30 GMT -6
It hasn't come up for most pros with a Pro Tools HD system running the d*thered mixer because it handles it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 14, 2015 12:41:02 GMT -6
This is very confusing topic , but from what I understand quantize noise shows up "harmonically" in a very un harmonicly pleasing way going upwards into the frequency spectrum, The noise it makes is in response to the signal it's quantizing, it's not random, and it's ugly, without dither, that noise buildup track after track, can become very very ugly and give you the hard to quantify "swirling space monkey digititus", I have some pretty good reading material on it I will post later, my keyboard on my computer took a Poo, i'll have to put it up later .
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 14, 2015 14:38:16 GMT -6
Think of truncation as a chattering noise gate. D*ther turns the bottom bit into random noise. It requires adding noise of a specific spectrum and level. D*ther sounds like noise but noise doesn't necessarily function as d*ther. It's very similar to the use of AC bias in an analog tape machine.
One reason d*thering is important is that the truncation gating distortion builds up much faster with additional signal processing generations than the random noise from d*ther. (The minute you apply ANY DSP you are dealing with good old analog-style generation loss. Digital technology is no different than analog other than the ability to perfectly copy audio.)
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 14, 2015 14:52:44 GMT -6
Ok, i picked up another keyboard, so heres some good reading on digital filters, and here's a thread started by one our favorite RGO guys, with some serious..., and I mean SERIOUS heavy weights chiming in on the subject(Sir Bob O included) repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,5739.0.html (apparently you have to copy this entire link and paste it in your address bar, for some reason when you click it, it leaves off the tail end?) www.users.qwest.net/~volt42/cadenzarecording/Filters.pdfhere's slightly "smug" Monty doing a great job of explaining things until he says "no one ever ruined a great recording by not employing dither", he fails to realize that while mixing, some people use upwards of 100 tracks with a zillion plugs that have quantization noise all over them, the signal dependent, nasty upward harmonic noise build up, and subsequent cascaded passing over one another build up to VERY audible artifacting levels.. aka "swirling space monkey digititus", I believe this is what bothers me so about digital recordings. Or, I'm totally wrong, and it's something else entirely haha
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 14, 2015 15:00:02 GMT -6
I have a thread regarding my final mix sounding different than my listening from my DAW. Could it be that when I bounce (I use Logic X) , I'm doing something wrong? Although I have some tracks done at 44.1, I use 48k now always. I'm really only concerned with my 24 bit WAV files staying 24 bits for the final mixdown. I'm not sure I'll ever use the CD format again, so I don't know if I'll need 16 bits for any purpose now. I will need a good sounding mp3 copy though.
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Post by wiz on Jun 14, 2015 16:52:36 GMT -6
Ok, i picked up another keyboard, so heres some good reading on digital filters, and here's a thread started by one our favorite RGO guys, with some serious..., and I mean SERIOUS heavy weights chiming in on the subject(Sir Bob O included) repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,5739.0.html (apparently you have to copy this entire link and paste it in your address bar, for some reason when you click it, it leaves off the tail end?) www.users.qwest.net/~volt42/cadenzarecording/Filters.pdfhere's slightly "smug" Monty doing a great job of explaining things until he says "no one ever ruined a great recording by not employing dither", he fails to realize that while mixing, some people use upwards of 100 tracks with a zillion plugs that have quantization noise all over them, the signal dependent, nasty upward harmonic noise build up, and subsequent cascaded passing over one another build up to VERY audible artifacting levels.. aka "swirling space monkey digititus", I believe this is what bothers me so about digital recordings. Or, I'm totally wrong, and it's something else entirely haha ahhh yes the thread from my past... 8) when a young (well younger) bright eyed and bushy tailed wiz, wandered into the electronic lounge room of some of the greatest names in engineering history and asked a question that was really in the context of the company, quite a basic and inane question, and was very graciously put in his place by the inventor of the parametric EQ. That thread, is what is great about the internet... Bob , George, Nika and others... all very brilliant and extremely talented guys, taking their time to explain to a nobody like me... How f*&Cking cool is that.... how gracious people can be. The internet was once a place (and RGO might be the last vestige of this) where if you were well mannered and respectful, people like this, would take time out of their day, to explain to people like me... Honestly, this thread, and the couple of phone calls I had with Bob, are right up there for me. cheers Wiz PS how time flies eh?
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