Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 1:49:42 GMT -6
Wow.
OK, i have to start somewhere. No, if i would have 20.000 bucks to spend, i would definitely spend more money on good monitoring, esp. speakers, i would drop the sub and check back with headphones in case i am not sure. For the start i would maybe head for the Neumann KH120 or something in this league upwards. I would try to spend less on digital stuff i.e. computer, esp. when on budget and needing mics etc..
Where i am at it, i would try to get a bunch of SM57 and one workhorse LDC. Not that the TLM103 is not a good allrounder, but at a full gear budget of 20000 just on gear there are other options...
Also i wouldn't buy a 8x pre with built in ADC card, but dedicated ADC so i could flip to other pre's later. On budget i really can say now from own experience that the Motu AVMs offer serious good quality at very affordable prices. Plus, you almost certainly will use them for longer, sound pretty good.
What DAW are you getting or do you already have a license? Is PC an option?
I almost certainly would drop the UAD stuff. Eats up too much of your budget at this point. Really. Invest not too much in hardware digital processing (conversion is something else...), my .20 cent on that.
|
|
|
|
Post by sopwith on May 8, 2015 3:04:47 GMT -6
This has been a really fascinating thread, thanks everyone for the knowledge.
The only thing I can add after seeing the Sweetwater quote is to echo the "spend less on digital stuff" line. You've got most of your budget eaten up by a fancy Mac, control surfaces, and UAD stuff. I'd say, spend more money on the signal chain BEFORE the computer, and less on the computer itself. The Focusrite 8 channel does look nice, if somewhat utilitarian. I'd go for a lunchbox with a few flavors of 500 series preamp modules, an 8 channel AD converter (maybe SVART here on the forum will have his 8 channel converter ready by the time you're purchasing this stuff), and a few nice mics. These folks will be very happy to suggest a really great large condenser, a small condenser, and a few 57s or other dynamics.
Building a Windows machine and using Cubase or Studio One will save you a good deal of money over a Mac with Pro Tools. And while I'd love to get into UAD at some point, maybe the money is better off spent in other areas while you get started. Man, that Ocean Way does look mighty tasty though.
Good luck!
|
|
|
|
Post by M57 on May 8, 2015 4:55:13 GMT -6
Nobody is asking about the type(s) of music you plan to record? - What do you plan to record with only one mic? What do you have for a space? Should you be investing some of that money there? I see no sound treatment other than some speaker pads (which isn't even technically 'treatment'). There are other things I don't understand. You're getting a 6 channel headphone amp and no headphones (and did I mention you're only getting one mic?) What equipment might you already own? I get it that you want to buy with the future in mind, but might that money not be better NOT spent on things you WON'T be using out of the box, and especially in your price-range. And with everyone talking about the importance of space, can you perhaps give them some idea of what that looks like. One huge message I get when I read in these forums is that a recording studio is not just made out of equipment..
|
|
|
|
Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 7:35:44 GMT -6
Okay everyone I'm sorry for the delay just finish my road trip from Arizona to Florida. First of all this is not a troll I just haven't been able to get back to the forum. Second I really appreciate all the responses from everyone! What I am trying to do is get some equipment that will allow me to get best bang for my buck. I want to be able to record vocals, drums,horns,some production, and sum mixing. I know my budget isn't that big but I have to start somewhere. I just graduated from fullsail university with a production degree and now I am trying to move forward. It's a little rough on me right now because I am still in the Army but I am determine to make this work. I love playing music, and I love recording I have a real passion for it. I know that I am just a beginner compared to you guys and that is the reason I am asking for your help! Thank you again for all your advice! Here is a list that I got from Sweetwater Please tell me if this is a good start: Apollo8QBk - Universal Audio APQ8D Apollo 8 Quad RKITMP - Magma Mac Pro Rackmount Kit ApolloCust10 - Universal Audio Your Pick of 10 UAD Plug-Ins TBCable2m - Apple Thunderbolt Cable 2m MacProQC37 - Apple Mac Pro 3.7GHz Quad-Core 8GB1866ECC - Lifetime Memory PC3-14900 ECC DIMM 8GB Install1 - Install: Apollo, RAM AppleCarePro - Apple Protection Plan - Mac Pro PTKeyMacAl - LogicKeyboard ProTools Keyboard - Ultra-thin AppleMouse - Apple Mac Pro Multi-Button Mouse MiniDPtoDVI - Apple Mini Displayport to DVI Adapter MCcontrol2 - Avid Artist Series Touchscreen Control MCmix - Avid Artist Series 8-Fader Control EthernetSw5 - Netgear 5-Port 10/100 Ethernet Switch GDrive-2TB - G-Technology 2TB Desktop USB3.0/FW Hard Drive DBox - Dangerous Music Summing/Monitoring System ISA828 - Focusrite 8-Ch ISA Mic Pre ISA828Card - Focusrite A/D Card for ISA 428 / 828 P1800AR - Furman 8+1 Outlet Rack Volt Regulator TLM103 - Neumann Lg Diaph Condenser Mic - Nickel SceptreS6 - PreSonus 6" Refence Monitor (ea) ProPAD - Auralex Isolation Pads for 2 Monitors TemblorT10 - PreSonus 10" Active Subwoofer HC6 - Rane 6-Ch Headphone Amp OPM303 - Hosa 3' Premium Optical Cable BNC103 - Hosa BNC-BNC 75-Ohm Cable 3' RkScrew25 - Raxxess 25 Phillips Screws w/Washers Total Price: roughly $20000 V/R Anthony Tubman Jr Anthony I replied to your PM...and then I went back to this list to make a talking points list for you. The guy from Sweetwater gave you, unfortunately, terrible advice. This list is not cost effective, nor is it really stretching your budget if you want the flexibility to track like you've posted. Please give me a call today if you have time. I'm around until 2PM Mountain time...or feel free to call in the evening. I could make giant posts at novel length about this list...but there's really no point as it's so unfocused with huge gaps in what I would want if I was in your shoes. Give me a ring and I'll try to help. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on May 8, 2015 8:03:28 GMT -6
This is pretty much what most of us take from low budget studio thinking...  I'd say that a good solid 60% of the "studios" advertising on facebook in my area have pictures that aren't too far off from that. They also have terrible results, but still do like 4x the business I seem to get having gear with an MSRP of well over 50K$ It's quite the pbummer, lemme tell you. That's the Craigslist special. If you search at all for used studio gear, you'll find a handful of guys like this selling their "studio". |
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 8, 2015 8:07:55 GMT -6
I'd say that a good solid 60% of the "studios" advertising on facebook in my area have pictures that aren't too far off from that. They also have terrible results, but still do like 4x the business I seem to get having gear with an MSRP of well over 50K$ It's quite the pbummer, lemme tell you. That's the Craigslist special. If you search at all for used studio gear, you'll find a handful of guys like this selling their "studio". I get people all the time messaging me on FB trying to sell me their gear. Usually it's just as bad as the craigslist ads. Every now and then there is a deal, but most of the time it's just folks trying to get more money than it's worth new. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on May 8, 2015 8:35:53 GMT -6
JMO, $20k is plenty to start, off the top of my head, DON'T BUY NEW if you don't have to!!! 8) Do your best not to fall into the digital trap, sales dudes are going to push you in that direction like the crack dealers they are. $1,500.00 www.motu.com/products/avb/16aMotu 16a, great out of the box, and the support via MrMiller is awesome, it can take you as far as you want if you get it modded, the best bang for the buck i've seen to this point. (no i do not own one, but a few trusted fellows do, Wiz, danderlou, smallbutfine, jerome) $1,000 for a used beast mac w T/bolt $5,000 for a used QUALITY 500 series rack/psu loaded with an assortment of pre's, you'll probably easily fill a 10 space for that amount? $100 for a soldering set up, learn how to use it 8) $5,000 for a MKU47/C12 clone, get someone to build them for you, if you can DIY, knock $2k off that price. $1,000 for a pair of samar modded ribbon mics, have Mark do them, you'll be stunned at how great they are. $2,300 for a pair of KM84's used, just do it. $2,000+ on good monitoring. =$17,900 approx, if you buy all of it used and DIY, it will be less. use the remainder for some sm57's, DI boxes, good diy mic cables/interconnects, etc. Then build upon that, you should be able to cover any recording task with the above, ending up with a HI Q result. The used 500 series pre's give you flexibility and retain decent value for resale as you dial in your sound. This all assumes your space is acoustically happening? good luck, and welcome to the forum and the addiction 8) |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 8, 2015 8:53:48 GMT -6
Tony's right, the K84's will just work on anything you throw in front of them, and make you look like a champ. My only difference with his post is I think you can get a great mic between $1,800 and $3,000.
|
|
|
|
Post by RicFoxx on May 8, 2015 8:55:31 GMT -6
After owning and selling a lot of equipment....This is not the way I would Spend $20,000...not even close. Too much attention given to items that have absolutely nothing to do with the sound of your productions. Go back and read thru the comments and you will start to understand (take to heart) the advice given is from people that were in your position and have years and years of buying and selling gear to get to their happy place. Room, Mics, Monitoring, Preamp, Converters, Computer In that order. I know this is overwhelming but be patient and make good investments and don't buy junk (you will have rebuy.)
Man you can have a decked out Mac Mini, Motu 16a, an API The Box Console (or Great River Mixmaster 20), Focal 65's, DIY MK47, Joly modded MK-012's, SM7 and some SM57's with Diy Room Treatments and cabling at about 20 grand and have a studio that Rivals the big boys that you will grow into instead of grow out of.
Your list reads like a bedroom enthusiast. Head the advice please!!!!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
|
Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 8:59:27 GMT -6
The Sweetwater quote shows everything I hate about these threads, there is absolutely zero personality in that gear selection. This is why I say spend some time and money in a studio finding what works for you!
There is no absolute best, there is what works best for you, not what a gear pimp can fit in your budget! You do realize that your gear pimps choices are based on the following ; What's going to put the most cash in his pocket; what's in stock; what vendors he has a good relationship with; what he likes; and again what is going to put the most $$ in his pocket.
Here is my advice
1 buy used , Ill bet if you stick with it 80% of this gear is sold off to fund other gear in the next year. Realize if you walk into a true pro room the most coveted gear is stuff that was made 20 years ago.
2 learn to solder! Make your own cables , build a couple of CAPI and Neve flavored 500 pres and find what works for you, then buy and build more.
Listen to some Great monitors, Big ones then ask yourself what can't I give up ! What can I give up?
Scepters are great for the money , but all speakers suck its how they suck and what you hear that makes the difference !
What ever you do buy a small mixer!
Look my little Mackie solves more problems and is used for more quick fixes than anything else !
Do you need a New Mac Pro with rack kit ?
A 2009 Mac Pro is pretty powerfull and can be updated and is $500-600!
Or is a I7 MBP better for you ? It's awesome to be able to do a quick mix on the toilet, on the plane, at Starbucks !
Don't spend more than $5000 till you know what you like!
I mean really if you knew how much work was done with my ever growing collection of in expensive dynamics and how often people are calling to rent them you would laugh at that TLM103, I love LDCs but that thing is blah the only reason I sold them was because people had to have a Neumann!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 9:17:02 GMT -6
Nice one, Tony.
Pretty good list to get a real maximum out of it and all points well worth considering!
BTW. my Motu is the 24Ao, but it sounds really excellent especially for the price and shares the same engine and core, and even if the 16A has a tiny bit of less fidelity due to more complexity, that for the opportunity of beeing a nice classy IOBox right without any extra external converter at this pricing is definitely a very good buy without regrets or compromise on sound quality. The other guys mentioned do have the 16A from what they wrote, with dandeurloo having both. And they all confirmed how absolutely usable and shockingly good they sound stock for a very affordable pricing. One must pay *alot* more to get comparable sound quality in this amount of channels plus you get a great routing and internal mixing engine on top even with some effects processing. Nearly a no-brainer.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on May 8, 2015 9:30:21 GMT -6
Tony's right, the K84's will just work on anything you throw in front of them, and make you look like a champ. My only difference with his post is I think you can get a great mic between $1,800 and $3,000. ahhh, but i said a MKU47 AND a C12 clone for $5k, that's an unheard of price for a pair of mics in that Q range! and the contrast in their vibe make them the perfect complimentary pair IMO 8) For the 8/ clients, put a Neumann/telefunken badge on them, the inability to hear the insane quality will be appeased by the shiny sparkly badge lol  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 9:50:59 GMT -6
All great posts, and i guess one point that results is: You get much(!) more out of it if you *take your time*. Sure, one might *want* to make a one-shot-order and hooray christmas packages, starting business. Understandable. But how about taking some time and paying alot less money for marvellous equipment that is no compromise. Buying used. Checking out your personal preference from all the good recommendations made here. Doing DIY and get things even money can't buy elsewhere, buying good stuff used, this way you can get to a gear selection many established studios will envy and your customers will love you for, based on the results - inside of *your* budget.
What people tell you here is mostly a condensed experience of things we did *wrong* and learned the hard way, loosing alot of money in the end. Most of us. The absolute majority. Avoid as many of these pitfalls as you can and take this seriously over impatience and short time enthusiasm. This way you can save yourself from a lot of money loss and frustration. In the end you will get to your *personal* goal alot faster than many, many of your future competitors...
BTW, i guess Tony did not mean ONE of these excellent LDC replicas for the 5k, but BOTH, covering every need for male and female vocals and many other purposes and leaving you with stunning to stellar results...also his pricing for DIYing them IS realistic. Edit...ha! you were faster than light clearing this up!
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 8, 2015 10:28:14 GMT -6
I missed the "and' Tony :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on May 8, 2015 10:52:50 GMT -6
Gotta ask, man. Is this $20k cash or credit? Don't know if it's a smart move starting out $20k down. I've been in debt (to one extent or another) most of my adult life because of this passion. Buy used and learn to DIY. You don't need a brand new Mac Pro. Start with the bare essentials and put the rest in savings. Or better yet, go out to a show and buy the band drinks. Cause if you build it doesn't mean they will come.
I've got a degree in audio production as well (learned more on my own than I ever did in school). Didn't really do much for me except fill a prerequisite to go to grad school. Now I've got a pretty good day gig at a University (media production) where I get to be creative and afford gear to produce bands nights/weekends. And I'm almost debt free...almost.
I guess I'm just saying be smart. Don't blow yer wad with itchy trigger fingers.
|
|
|
|
Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 11:33:32 GMT -6
yep, it is all about acoustics. I agree. I also don't agree with people on buying used all the time...that can help at times, but with Analog you need to get used gear checked out and tech'd on a lot of the time. Routine maintenance is always key for analog gear, but it's overlooked a lot when people buy used. Also sometimes, if you know where to look, you can get fantastic deals on new gear, the key is to know what benchmark prices Vs common designs are for starters. If you love API flavor for example...try a lot of different preamps. Both CAPI and WARM are making superior API flavor sounds...for less money to boot, and that's just one example. The other thing is...without some decent gear you can get to know over time...as you're treating your room...you won't understand it half as well. If you've got a decent chain and a few instruments that your ears know inside and out...then it's time to pay for decent room treatment and to spend the time getting placements right to tune your acoustics. At all times..you simply need to have a reference point that you understand when something doesn't feel or sound quite..."right". Otherwise you just drive past where you're supposed to be, every time. I have literally a half dozen questions I think need to be asked before you start itemizing a budget...but fools and their money.... |
|
|
|
Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 11:36:49 GMT -6
The Sweetwater quote shows everything I hate about these threads, there is absolutely zero personality in that gear selection. This is why I say spend some time and money in a studio finding what works for you! There is no absolute best, there is what works best for you, not what a gear pimp can fit in your budget! You do realize that your gear pimps choices are based on the following ; What's going to put the most cash in his pocket; what's in stock; what vendors he has a good relationship with; what he likes; and again what is going to put the most $$ in his pocket. Here is my advice 1 buy used , Ill bet if you stick with it 80% of this gear is sold off to fund other gear in the next year. Realize if you walk into a true pro room the most coveted gear is stuff that was made 20 years ago. 2 learn to solder! Make your own cables , build a couple of CAPI and Neve flavored 500 pres and find what works for you, then buy and build more. Listen to some Great monitors, Big ones then ask yourself what can't I give up ! What can I give up? Scepters are great for the money , but all speakers suck its how they suck and what you hear that makes the difference ! What ever you do buy a small mixer! Look my little Mackie solves more problems and is used for more quick fixes than anything else ! Do you need a New Mac Pro with rack kit ? A 2009 Mac Pro is pretty powerfull and can be updated and is $500-600! Or is a I7 MBP better for you ? It's awesome to be able to do a quick mix on the toilet, on the plane, at Starbucks ! Don't spend more than $5000 till you know what you like! I mean really if you knew how much work was done with my ever growing collection of in expensive dynamics and how often people are calling to rent them you would laugh at that TLM103, I love LDCs but that thing is blah the only reason I sold them was because people had to have a Neumann! I love this post and totally agree. The other odd thing about the Sweetwater list is that it even shy's away from "Classic" sounds that are considered staple...for example, they recommend preamps like the Focusrite..which I have always found to be kind of...dull sounding and uninspiring for what it costs. If you're going to pick something less traditional....then pick something with a really gnarly flavor to it that you can't live without in a studio setting, or stick with Neve/API style preamps to do the heavy lifting and find the best examples of those kinds of preamps which are affordable and give you the track count you need to work. But there really isn't anything on that list I'd spring for. It's all just so bland...and overpriced. Zero cost efficiency. Plus it's downright lazy how little research went into that list. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 11:48:27 GMT -6
Just looked on the first sweetwater homepage. Guess what comes up in the up-to-50-percent reduced sales right there? Yes. TLM-103s and Focusrite preamps. They seemingly want to clear some stock on these...well, yeah, therefore it's obviously "recommended" just at the moment...
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 12:17:32 GMT -6
Just looked on the first sweetwater homepage. Guess what comes up in the up-to-50-percent reduced sales right there? Yes. TLM-103s and Focusrite preamps. They seemingly want to clear some stock on these...well, yeah, therefore it's obviously "recommended" just at the moment... I'm shocked I tell you shocked |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 12:22:46 GMT -6
If you insist on doing all this at once call war at Zen pro Audio. I would love to see what he would do, I picture a 500 series's rack full of goodies and a rack full of Warm !
Besides the already mentined DIY mics I would have loved A Lawson 47/251 FET / tube combo when I started and would still love the Tube ele and 251 head!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 12:33:44 GMT -6
Oh yes, it totally surprised me. I also had no idea about that, i just totally accidentally surfed Sweetwater, it is my favorite buying place, living in germany. :-D
I really might get better 20k budget recommendations around here from the "Big T" (Thomann, kind of german/european sweetwater)
But really, nobody i know ever tried something like this.
That's the great thing about the internet. You find out about business practices and find the guys that are known to head for returning customers. "A good deal is a good deal if both would do it again"-kind of salesmen....
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 12:55:01 GMT -6
Having worked for Sweetwaters next biggest compeditor I have known Chuck and Jeff the VP of sales for most of my life, they try to run a good place, but here's the thing nobody realizes if you call in as new client you will most likely get one of least experienced sales people !
Experienced staff is to busy to deal with new clients !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 12:57:46 GMT -6
Man, that's odd.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -6
Think about it over time you build a client base, they demand your time, your voicemail is already full most of the time, are you going to take more clients and make the wait for returned messages even longer? |
|
|
|
Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 13:29:07 GMT -6
Just looked on the first sweetwater homepage. Guess what comes up in the up-to-50-percent reduced sales right there? Yes. TLM-103s and Focusrite preamps. They seemingly want to clear some stock on these...well, yeah, therefore it's obviously "recommended" just at the moment... The TLM 103 will work for very high female voices...and...that's really about it. It's the single most overrated LDC ever in the history of using a brand name to justify overcharging for a condenser mic. I absolutely hate that mic with a passion, and on GS I basically had to muzzle my hatred due to the fact that Nuemann were advertisers. But here...what the heck...it's a terrible mic. I know a lot of people own them, and can get them to record things =P, but there's literally dozens of mics I'd pick first at that price point or less...and so many more worth the effort of saving up for instead. It's common...but boring, strident to the point of sibilance, and overpriced for how it sounds...the TLM103 is nothing to write home about. The only famous singer who ever sounded great through one to my ears was Imogen Heap...and after she could afford better, she started to buy more expensive mics for her productions anyway (proving a great vocalist can overcome a terrible mic.) The Focusrite isn't awful...it's just not really all that great...and for that kind of money there are half a dozen better solutions to get eight to twelve better preamps together for production work if you're serious. I guess they need to clear them out...but you never see serious engineers looking for that preamp above all others...it's definitely not a "holy grail" every session preamp...and there are far more cost efficient workhorse preamps if you do a little digging. Hell the eight channel unit by Phoenix Audio has way better features per channel even if you want an eight channel unit and aren't interested in more "classic" designs. |
|
