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Post by wiz on Apr 15, 2015 19:40:49 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression.
I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance".
Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right.
I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing...
Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix.
I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it.
I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling.
Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by gouge on Apr 15, 2015 19:42:45 GMT -6
drawmer 1968 with needle barely moving was my solution.
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Post by wiz on Apr 15, 2015 19:49:26 GMT -6
drawmer 1968 with needle barely moving was my solution. Hey gougewhat did you find it did for you sonically? how did you incorporate it into your mixing workflow? cheers Wiz |
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Post by swurveman on Apr 15, 2015 20:36:38 GMT -6
I feel the exact opposite. I put my C2 on at a 1.5:1 ratio, 30 ms attack time and auto release and and love to hear the mix cohere without spoiling the dynamics of the mix at all.
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Post by wiz on Apr 15, 2015 20:47:51 GMT -6
I feel the exact opposite. I put my C2 on at a 1.5:1 ratio, 30 ms attack time and auto release and and love to hear the mix cohere without spoiling the dynamics of the mix at all. and thats really cool... seriously. Did you find the same from other buss compressors? How much comp are you doing? Does passing the signal though the box without compression give you any joy? cheers Wiz |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 15, 2015 21:13:24 GMT -6
The best 2buss compressor is a highly capable pro ME 8) I don't mix into a 2 buss comp for too many reasons to list.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 15, 2015 21:18:47 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression. I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance". Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right. I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing... Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix. I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it. I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling. Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8) cheers Wiz Hey Wiz...here's I how approach 2Bus Compression, it has to flow with the entire mix from the start: 01. ALWAYS MIX AT -12dB TO -14dB (ADJUST TO -18dB or -20dB FOR DANCE MUSIC/FILM SCORES)When I say always, I mean ALWAYS I use K-Meter (LINK) by Meter Plugs inserted on an a stereo AUX send in line before my Master Fader Channel if I'm in Pro Tools...or on a Stereo Submix Bus track if I'm in Cubase. This is a $50 plugin that gives you metering centered around lower volumes...it will look like it's clipping at -12dB or -14dB depending on how you set it up. Why is this important? Well...by mixing at low levels I'm left with tones of headroom when I chain compressors on my Submixes and 2Bus. Mixing at even lower volumes helps when bass response and dynamics are even more critically important, so -18dB/-20dB can be a good volume for a mix in those realms. 02. ALWAYS CRAFT SIGNAL FLOW TO USE SUBMIXES PRIOR TO YOUR 2BUS PROCESSORSThe way I mix, whether on a console, or ITB is as follows: MONO BUSESLead Vocal Tracks > Lead Vocal Mult Bus (Mono) Bass Tracks > Bass Mult Bus (Mono) Snare Tracks > Snare Mult Bus (Mono) Kick Tracks > Kick Mult Bus (Mono) STEREO BUSESDrum Tracks > Drum Bus (Stereo) Rhythm Guitar Tracks > Rhythm Guitar Bus (Stereo) Lead Guitar Tracks > Lead Guitar Bus (Stereo) Keyboard/Piano Tracks > Keyboard/Piano Bus (Stereo) Backing Vocal Tracks > Backing Vocal Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group A > AUX Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group B > AUX Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group C > AUX Bus (Stereo) Etc. (If you need more Buses in a denser mix.) Basically there's 12 total Buses, 4 MONO, and 8 STEREO. All of these go to a final submix bus before going to MASTER FADER if we're mixing ITB...if we're mixing on a console they just go to the master fader. NO FADER whether it's a track, or submix should ever be above 0dB in your mix...the added benefit to low level mixing is that all FX sends/returns will never clip, allowing you to be more creative with reverbs and delays in crafting depth and space. 03. IF ITB THE FINAL SUBMIX IS IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF CPU USAGE AND DYNAMIC RANGEIf your 12 submixes are going to a final submix prior to the Master Fader, then your CPU will require far less processing to handle the final FX chains and Write Automation. Generally the Master Fader is given higher headroom and a bigger CPU load in Pro Tools, and I believe most other DAW's are similar in this respect. Since overall CPU usage is now lower, your Master Fader is merely there rendering the final mix...rather than balancing plugin usage, write automation, and rendering. This means you can get away with more plugins across the mix, and you will deal with lower latency overall, which helps with making judgement calls with how much compression you want to be using (since any obvious to subtle pumping will be closer to real time using non-destructive editing.) HOWEVER...your "2Bus Compression" as well as all other final processing will now occur at this phase and NOT on the master fader (this is critical in my opinion.)
04. ALWAYS EQ BEFORE COMPRESSIONIf you can use an EQ before compression to cut and boost the frequencies you want to focus on in small increments, then the gain structure of your EQ and compression will always be low and musical. You won't have to ever be aggressive about EQ or compression at any one phase in a mix, and therefore the gain will never feel pushed at any frequency. Additionally, you'll be cutting frequencies you don't want to crush and bring up in level out...manually side-chaining everything from the start. If side-chains are available use them as well, but I would still EQ prior to compression, primarily to cut. NOTE: *There are exceptions when it comes to boosting only EQ's (EQ's that by design cannot cut), but typically they come AFTER compression on a submix chain. The reason why this is the exception that proves the rule is simple: If you can't cut...you can't side-chain...so focus instead on regaining transient response and highlighting dominant frequencies you want more of. You'll typically have to turn the volume of the submix down as you do this...but your apparent volume will increase. 05. FAVOR COMPRESSORS WITH BUILT IN PARALLEL COMPRESSIONMost hardware or software compressors I would use on submixes have built in parallel compression (WET/DRY), so you can crush to taste and then feed back in the transient response in order to make things feel natural, no matter how hard you crush. When you finally use a compressor that doesn't have parallel built in...use it last in your signal chain on an individual track or submix to prevent clipping and add a little "glue". I can get into how I like to set compressors, but a lot of that is a matter of taste. Hope this helps you visualize how I'd go about it. 06. MONITOR ON THREE SETS OF REFERENCE SPEAKERSI use a small pair of vintage ROR A's (similar to Auratones, but extremely rare), Equator D5's, and I'm currently shopping for a 3rd pair of monitors...but I also used a pair of ADAM A7's with a Sub 8 for many, many years. By checking your balance and compression on three sets of speakers you can generally get a good idea if your "photograph" is translating well. Your smaller speakers can be set in mono if you're using a decent Monitor Controller to mimic cell phone speaker response, and your other sets can help with sub low bass engaged and non bass heavy flat response monitoring. This can be extra useful if you're trying to implement "Ducking" compression at any phase in the mix...and with monitoring your stereo image with, height, and depth. If a compressor is obviously pumping on any of the monitor sets then it needs to be adjusted...and if the image is getting smaller and less interesting, or too big and unfocused due to compression you'll be able to catch it faster. 07. CHAINING MULTIPLE COMPRESSORS ON SUBMIXES AND THE "2BUS" SUBMIX/MASTER FADER CONSOLE INSERTSOn every submix I would use this signal chain: EQ > Compressor with Parallel Compression built in > EQ > Compressor without Parallel Compression to act as a final limiter (to prevent clipping.) This way as you compress, you can typically get away with lower settings...or if you have to pump harder to get a "sound" you're after, you can do it via your parallel compressor in the first half of the chain. Light amounts of compression in phases will stack over time...shaping the mix and helping the groove swing better if it's applied correctly. If the mix feels "Stiff" or rigid...you've over-compressed at one phase or another. The final submix with "2Bus" compression or the inserts after the master fader on a console can chain even more processors as needed...especially if you've mixed at low volumes (-12dB to -14dB) But you generally want to avoid crushing too hard with any compressors that lack parallel compression at any phase. 08. MONITOR AT LOW LEVEL VOLUMESYou'll spare yourself ear fatigue and be able to work on a mix longer while being able to consistently double check your settings. This will help you prevent "driving past" exciting settings and signal chains. Also since you're ears aren't getting tired, you can really hear a difference when inspiration strikes to explore more extreme compression settings. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 15, 2015 21:48:13 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression. I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance". Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right. I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing... Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix. I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it. I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling. Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8) cheers Wiz Sounds like you might like a Manley Vari-Mu. Not the plugin. Hardware. Just a tickle on the meters will level things out nicely, add a nice warmth and sheen, but it will not smash stuff to smithereens. Other than that, it sounds like you don't like the sound of compression - which is fine. I prefer it that way myself a good percentage of the time. But unfortunately, if you want people to hear your music in 2015 - it's mandatory. Whether it happens during mix, mastering or broadcast - it's gonna get compressed / limited. What compressor / limiters are you using? If it's plugins, please try switching to hardware. There is a big difference. I use software plugs all the time, but never on the mix buss as there's a "something special" that happens, that is almost indefinable, but definitely sweet when you've got analog hardware on your 2 buss. If it's hardware, try a different style of compressor / limiter. And try to mix INTO it rather than slapping it on at the end. You will get closer to what you hear in your head by default. Much like you, I used to never mix into compression, but now, I do it almost 100% of the time because I want the control - and it's generally out of my control by the time an ME gets it. IME, there are too many amateur ME's posing as professionals these days, and clients are always looking to save a buck - and for that reason and I have decided I want to take it at least half way there. Now, another option for you. Try something like the Silver Bullet (shameless plug, but dead on appropriate) that Brad McGowan from LTL and I have been working on for a couple of years. It's almost ready for release and it will shave transients off much like tape, and net you a significantly higher RMS level without any compression at all. You'll probably also like the girth and dimensionality that it imparts, but it can get you 25%-40% there without any "compression" happening at all. Then you can compress just a bit and you'll getting way closer to where you want without a lot of squishy compression artifacts. Again, mix INTO the SB and you'll be way closer than slapping it on at the end. Good luck. The answer is out there. You just need to find what works for your esthetic - because mandatory - "you must do this, then you must do that" are too hit and miss. This is a VERY personal matter.... |
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Post by carymiller on Apr 15, 2015 22:01:40 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression. I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance". Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right. I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing... Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix. I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it. I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling. Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8) cheers Wiz Sounds like you might like a Manley Vari-Mu. Not the plugin. Hardware. Just a tickle on the meters will level things out nicely, add a nice warmth and sheen, but it will not smash stuff to smithereens. Other than that, it sounds like you don't like the sound of compression - which is fine. I prefer it that way myself a good percentage of the time. But unfortunately, if you want people to hear your music in 2015 - it's mandatory. Whether it happens during mix, mastering or broadcast - it's gonna get compressed / limited. What compressor / limiters are you using? If it's plugins, please try switching to hardware. There is a big difference. I use software plugs all the time, but never on the mix buss as there's a "something special" that happens, that is almost indefinable, but definitely sweet when you've got analog hardware on your 2 buss. If it's hardware, try a different style of compressor / limiter. And try to mix INTO it rather than slapping it on at the end. You will get closer to what you hear in your head by default. Much like you, I used to never mix into compression, but now, I do it almost 100% of the time because I want the control - and it's generally out of my control by the time an ME gets it. IME, there are too many amateur ME's posing as professionals these days, and clients are always looking to save a buck - and for that reason and I have decided I want to take it at least half way there. Now, another option for you. Try something like the Silver Bullet (shameless plug, but dead on appropriate) that Brad McGowan from LTL and I have been working on for a couple of years. It's almost ready for release and it will shave transients off much like tape, and net you a significantly higher RMS level without any compression at all. You'll probably also like the girth and dimensionality that it imparts, but it can get you 25%-40% there without any "compression" happening at all. Then you can compress just a bit and you'll getting way closer to where you want without a lot of squishy compression artifacts. Again, mix INTO the SB and you'll be way closer than slapping it on at the end. Good luck. The answer is out there. You just need to find what works for your esthetic - because mandatory - "you must do this, then you must do that" are too hit and miss. This is a VERY personal matter.... I agree that compressor designs / sounds imparted by designs...and settings are ultimately personal...but I stand by my list of absolutes (if that makes me a Sith than so be it  ), by sticking with the rules I self impose my headroom skyrockets and it frees me to then break the rules when I have to here and there in a creative fashion to get to the finish line. I generally start with template sessions set up as I describe above in order to control my gain staging at every phase...allowing me to get the most out of a compressor, and monitor how I like to have it set as I activate each plugin in turn...or insert if it's hardware. This also allows for more mix balance consistency across an entire album / EP worth of songs and a mix always comes together faster as you work sparing you ear fatigue. You just get a more cohesive sounding record that way which is genuinely important to me. Whatever compressors you use due to "sounds" which inspire...or settings you prefer...that's a matter of personal taste which only experience and experimentation can yield. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 15, 2015 22:18:23 GMT -6
Cary - your opinion / your approach. Cool. Doesn't make you anything other than Cary. :-) My comments were not directed towards you but towards Wiz who was asking. I like a lot of what you say, especially leaving a lot of dynamic range on the 2 buss. It sounds from your approach that you like your music a lot more compressed than I do. Which is great. No problem from my perspective. I'm a bit more of a purist though, and most of my music is headed towards TV/Film broadcast than towards top-40 radio - although that seems to be changing. (That may precipitate a change in my mixing style as well....) But in that arena (TV/Film) uber-compressed loud tracks do NOT work as well as tracks that are loud, but still have retained some dynamic range. A pet peev of re-mix engineers is over compressed (normal radio style) tracks that will not sit well under dialog....
When I deliver, I need my music to compete on the loudness front so it will be chosen (as we know, loud always wins), but I WANT dynamic range as much as possible. I need it to sound as loud as it can, but without sounding compressed. I know, I know, kind of an oxymoron..... heh But my approach gets me most of the way there. Usually....
I think it's cool that you share your approach, but personally, I don't think I'd use it for a variety of reasons - one of which is that generally speaking, the music I'm doing is not nearly as simple in instrumentation as what you're approaching. The busses, stems, submixes, etc. would be exponentially expanded. Again, my comment about compression and 2 buss processing being a very personal matter comes to mind.... IMO, there are no absolutes. Cheers, bp
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Post by carymiller on Apr 15, 2015 22:24:12 GMT -6
Cary - your opinion / your approach. Cool. Doesn't make you anything other than Cary. :-) My comments were not directed towards you but towards Wiz who was asking. I like a lot of what you say, especially leaving a lot of dynamic range on the 2 buss. It sounds from your approach that you like your music a lot more compressed than I do. Which is great. No problem from my perspective. I'm a bit more of a purist though, and most of my music is headed towards TV/Film broadcast than top-40 radio. In that arena uber-compressed loud tracks do NOT work as well as tracks that are loud, but still have retained some dynamic range. A pet peev of re-mix engineers.... When I deliver, I need my music to compete on the loudness front so it will be chosen (as we know, loud always wins), but I WANT dynamic range as much as possible. I need it to sound as loud as it can, but without sounding compressed. I know, I know, kind of an oxymoron..... heh But my approach gets me most of the way there. Usually.... I think it's cool that you share your approach, but personally, I don't think I'd use it for a variety of reasons - one of which is that it's not nearly as simple in instrumentation as what you're approaching. Again, my comment about compression and 2 buss processing being a very personal matter comes to mind.... Cheers, bp Totally get it! Also for settings with my approach...typically I'm going for LOW compression settings...most of the time I'm crushing a dB...if that. they just add up over time. For film scores though you need to be even more conservative which I understand. And I get where you're coming from. I also helped design AFTERMASTER (a mastering software), so I'm always thinking about where I want things to be when I go to master (I strongly prefer having very little left to do at that phase.) I left out settings because...everyone has different needs...but most new plug compressors...and many good hardware designs have built in parallel features now. So you can keep your transient response in tact when you need a submix to get crushed. For that final compression though I like to leave it as light as possible so there's more Dynamic Range for mastering. (A healthy -11dB to -8dB mastered dynamic range is usually best, especially for sync right placements like you're talking.) |
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Post by gouge on Apr 15, 2015 22:25:30 GMT -6
drawmer 1968 with needle barely moving was my solution. Hey gougewhat did you find it did for you sonically? how did you incorporate it into your mixing workflow? cheers Wiz the 1968 is fairly transparent when used sparingly. it does produce a slightly mid forward sound but it's subtle. it also adds some glue and tightens the bottom end slightly.
I find if I push it harder I don't like the sound. sometimes I use it and the meters aren't even moving but when I bypass it I loose the polish. the output amps on the drawmer I suspect is where the sparkle comes from. sometimes I'm driving the internal amps and pulling back on the compression.
I also use a pari lilpqr. they give air and girth. I also use a pair of lineamps. lola or vp28. driving those babies will also give glue.
I tend to think depending on your setup. if you have a fully discrete console with transformers galore then a 2bus comp becomes less important.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 15, 2015 22:30:46 GMT -6
Hey gougewhat did you find it did for you sonically? how did you incorporate it into your mixing workflow? cheers Wiz the 1968 is fairly transparent when used sparingly. it does produce a slightly mid forward sound but it's subtle. it also adds some glue and tightens the bottom end slightly.
I find if I push it harder I don't like the sound. sometimes I use it and the meters aren't even moving but when I bypass it I loose the polish. the output amps on the drawmer I suspect is where the sparkle comes from. sometimes I'm driving the internal amps and pulling back on the compression.
I also use a pari lilpqr. they give air and girth. I also use a pair of lineamps. lola or vp28. driving those babies will also give glue.
I tend to think depending on your setup. if you have a fully discrete console with transformers galore then a 2bus comp becomes less important.
I agree on all counts. Usually I use a pair of Chandler Germanium Compressors...on a 1:1 ratio...with the dry mix almost all the way in. The sound of the Knee I select and the transformer / germanium diodes does the rest in terms of adding the grit I want. Very subtle but without it...things just don't loom as large. |
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Post by swurveman on Apr 16, 2015 8:36:22 GMT -6
I feel the exact opposite. I put my C2 on at a 1.5:1 ratio, 30 ms attack time and auto release and and love to hear the mix cohere without spoiling the dynamics of the mix at all. and thats really cool... seriously. Did you find the same from other buss compressors? How much comp are you doing? Does passing the signal though the box without compression give you any joy? cheers Wiz And it's cool that you do it your way Wiz. That's what's great about this, we use our instincts and roll with it. As to your questions: My other stereo compressor is an API 2500. My experience is that it takes some frequencies-in the snare drum spectrum- and pops them out of the mix, which I don't want most of the time. I have a pair of Distressors that I could put on the mix bus, but I haven't used them. I probably should, but I am so happy with the C2 that I haven't done it yet. The amount of compression I use varies: I'm doing a blues/swing band project now and I never go over 2dB of compression at the lowest ratio setting and slowest attack. That keeps everything open. With modern rock mixes, I hit it harder at a 4:1 ratio and go 4dB and up of gain reduction. Whatever sounds good to me. I think with all these compressors the best thing is to take time and explore all the combinations of ratios, attack and release times and gain reduction. Hearing compression really well takes time. I am far from where I want to be, but learning. One thing I learned was-even though you read forums about what the sweet spot settings are for particular compressors- you really have to determine that for yourself. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 16, 2015 16:03:22 GMT -6
Dang carymiller, that's a great post, but my head's gonna explode if I try to follow all those suggestions. If you're ever in Manhattan and want to stop by to give me a few pointers, I'll buy us the best Indian food buffet lunch you ever had, and a IPA too if necessary !
Right now, I'm banging the shit out of a half dozen compressor plugs. They're like a drug habit, y'now?
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Post by svart on Apr 16, 2015 16:41:31 GMT -6
SSL hardware bus compressor at 2 or 4:1, slowest attack, fastest release, needles just kissing 3db GR.
You're welcome.
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Post by wiz on Apr 16, 2015 18:23:49 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression. I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance". Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right. I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing... Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix. I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it. I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling. Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8) cheers Wiz Hey Wiz...here's I how approach 2Bus Compression, it has to flow with the entire mix from the start: 01. ALWAYS MIX AT -12dB TO -14dB (ADJUST TO -18dB or -20dB FOR DANCE MUSIC/FILM SCORES)When I say always, I mean ALWAYS I use K-Meter (LINK) by Meter Plugs inserted on an a stereo AUX send in line before my Master Fader Channel if I'm in Pro Tools...or on a Stereo Submix Bus track if I'm in Cubase. This is a $50 plugin that gives you metering centered around lower volumes...it will look like it's clipping at -12dB or -14dB depending on how you set it up. Why is this important? Well...by mixing at low levels I'm left with tones of headroom when I chain compressors on my Submixes and 2Bus. Mixing at even lower volumes helps when bass response and dynamics are even more critically important, so -18dB/-20dB can be a good volume for a mix in those realms. 02. ALWAYS CRAFT SIGNAL FLOW TO USE SUBMIXES PRIOR TO YOUR 2BUS PROCESSORSThe way I mix, whether on a console, or ITB is as follows: MONO BUSESLead Vocal Tracks > Lead Vocal Mult Bus (Mono) Bass Tracks > Bass Mult Bus (Mono) Snare Tracks > Snare Mult Bus (Mono) Kick Tracks > Kick Mult Bus (Mono) STEREO BUSESDrum Tracks > Drum Bus (Stereo) Rhythm Guitar Tracks > Rhythm Guitar Bus (Stereo) Lead Guitar Tracks > Lead Guitar Bus (Stereo) Keyboard/Piano Tracks > Keyboard/Piano Bus (Stereo) Backing Vocal Tracks > Backing Vocal Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group A > AUX Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group B > AUX Bus (Stereo) AUX Track Group C > AUX Bus (Stereo) Etc. (If you need more Buses in a denser mix.) Basically there's 12 total Buses, 4 MONO, and 8 STEREO. All of these go to a final submix bus before going to MASTER FADER if we're mixing ITB...if we're mixing on a console they just go to the master fader. NO FADER whether it's a track, or submix should ever be above 0dB in your mix...the added benefit to low level mixing is that all FX sends/returns will never clip, allowing you to be more creative with reverbs and delays in crafting depth and space. 03. IF ITB THE FINAL SUBMIX IS IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF CPU USAGE AND DYNAMIC RANGEIf your 12 submixes are going to a final submix prior to the Master Fader, then your CPU will require far less processing to handle the final FX chains and Write Automation. Generally the Master Fader is given higher headroom and a bigger CPU load in Pro Tools, and I believe most other DAW's are similar in this respect. Since overall CPU usage is now lower, your Master Fader is merely there rendering the final mix...rather than balancing plugin usage, write automation, and rendering. This means you can get away with more plugins across the mix, and you will deal with lower latency overall, which helps with making judgement calls with how much compression you want to be using (since any obvious to subtle pumping will be closer to real time using non-destructive editing.) HOWEVER...your "2Bus Compression" as well as all other final processing will now occur at this phase and NOT on the master fader (this is critical in my opinion.)
04. ALWAYS EQ BEFORE COMPRESSIONIf you can use an EQ before compression to cut and boost the frequencies you want to focus on in small increments, then the gain structure of your EQ and compression will always be low and musical. You won't have to ever be aggressive about EQ or compression at any one phase in a mix, and therefore the gain will never feel pushed at any frequency. Additionally, you'll be cutting frequencies you don't want to crush and bring up in level out...manually side-chaining everything from the start. If side-chains are available use them as well, but I would still EQ prior to compression, primarily to cut. NOTE: *There are exceptions when it comes to boosting only EQ's (EQ's that by design cannot cut), but typically they come AFTER compression on a submix chain. The reason why this is the exception that proves the rule is simple: If you can't cut...you can't side-chain...so focus instead on regaining transient response and highlighting dominant frequencies you want more of. You'll typically have to turn the volume of the submix down as you do this...but your apparent volume will increase. 05. FAVOR COMPRESSORS WITH BUILT IN PARALLEL COMPRESSIONMost hardware or software compressors I would use on submixes have built in parallel compression (WET/DRY), so you can crush to taste and then feed back in the transient response in order to make things feel natural, no matter how hard you crush. When you finally use a compressor that doesn't have parallel built in...use it last in your signal chain on an individual track or submix to prevent clipping and add a little "glue". I can get into how I like to set compressors, but a lot of that is a matter of taste. Hope this helps you visualize how I'd go about it. 06. MONITOR ON THREE SETS OF REFERENCE SPEAKERSI use a small pair of vintage ROR A's (similar to Auratones, but extremely rare), Equator D5's, and I'm currently shopping for a 3rd pair of monitors...but I also used a pair of ADAM A7's with a Sub 8 for many, many years. By checking your balance and compression on three sets of speakers you can generally get a good idea if your "photograph" is translating well. Your smaller speakers can be set in mono if you're using a decent Monitor Controller to mimic cell phone speaker response, and your other sets can help with sub low bass engaged and non bass heavy flat response monitoring. This can be extra useful if you're trying to implement "Ducking" compression at any phase in the mix...and with monitoring your stereo image with, height, and depth. If a compressor is obviously pumping on any of the monitor sets then it needs to be adjusted...and if the image is getting smaller and less interesting, or too big and unfocused due to compression you'll be able to catch it faster. 07. CHAINING MULTIPLE COMPRESSORS ON SUBMIXES AND THE "2BUS" SUBMIX/MASTER FADER CONSOLE INSERTSOn every submix I would use this signal chain: EQ > Compressor with Parallel Compression built in > EQ > Compressor without Parallel Compression to act as a final limiter (to prevent clipping.) This way as you compress, you can typically get away with lower settings...or if you have to pump harder to get a "sound" you're after, you can do it via your parallel compressor in the first half of the chain. Light amounts of compression in phases will stack over time...shaping the mix and helping the groove swing better if it's applied correctly. If the mix feels "Stiff" or rigid...you've over-compressed at one phase or another. The final submix with "2Bus" compression or the inserts after the master fader on a console can chain even more processors as needed...especially if you've mixed at low volumes (-12dB to -14dB) But you generally want to avoid crushing too hard with any compressors that lack parallel compression at any phase. 08. MONITOR AT LOW LEVEL VOLUMESYou'll spare yourself ear fatigue and be able to work on a mix longer while being able to consistently double check your settings. This will help you prevent "driving past" exciting settings and signal chains. Also since you're ears aren't getting tired, you can really hear a difference when inspiration strikes to explore more extreme compression settings. Hey carymillerthats so awesome of you to put in such a detailled reply. I too am a fan of leaving headroom 8) I am gonna have a good read of this.. again thanks Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Apr 16, 2015 18:24:45 GMT -6
One of the things I have always , always struggled with is 2 Buss compression. I love that thing about a mix, where things "dance". Those level fluctuations (say around 1dB) and discrepancies in volume between left and right. Say strummed acoustic guitars left and right, or picked pretty electric guitars left and right. I am not talking about uncontrolled level, i.e. someone who can't control their playing... Those parts, may already be compressed in the effects chain during tracking or have some compression applied to them in the mix. I have never had success with 2 buss... mixing into it from the start, putting it on at the end, either way it just seems to be the equivalent of putting a shit song on at a dance.. the dance floor was full and now.. everyone deserts it. I am talking even with tiny amounts of gain reduction, with the needle just tickling. Please don't reply with standard internet audio degree folk lore... 8) cheers Wiz Sounds like you might like a Manley Vari-Mu. Not the plugin. Hardware. Just a tickle on the meters will level things out nicely, add a nice warmth and sheen, but it will not smash stuff to smithereens. Other than that, it sounds like you don't like the sound of compression - which is fine. I prefer it that way myself a good percentage of the time. But unfortunately, if you want people to hear your music in 2015 - it's mandatory. Whether it happens during mix, mastering or broadcast - it's gonna get compressed / limited. What compressor / limiters are you using? If it's plugins, please try switching to hardware. There is a big difference. I use software plugs all the time, but never on the mix buss as there's a "something special" that happens, that is almost indefinable, but definitely sweet when you've got analog hardware on your 2 buss. If it's hardware, try a different style of compressor / limiter. And try to mix INTO it rather than slapping it on at the end. You will get closer to what you hear in your head by default. Much like you, I used to never mix into compression, but now, I do it almost 100% of the time because I want the control - and it's generally out of my control by the time an ME gets it. IME, there are too many amateur ME's posing as professionals these days, and clients are always looking to save a buck - and for that reason and I have decided I want to take it at least half way there. Now, another option for you. Try something like the Silver Bullet (shameless plug, but dead on appropriate) that Brad McGowan from LTL and I have been working on for a couple of years. It's almost ready for release and it will shave transients off much like tape, and net you a significantly higher RMS level without any compression at all. You'll probably also like the girth and dimensionality that it imparts, but it can get you 25%-40% there without any "compression" happening at all. Then you can compress just a bit and you'll getting way closer to where you want without a lot of squishy compression artifacts. Again, mix INTO the SB and you'll be way closer than slapping it on at the end. Good luck. The answer is out there. You just need to find what works for your esthetic - because mandatory - "you must do this, then you must do that" are too hit and miss. This is a VERY personal matter.... Thanks for taking the time to reply drbillgreat advice cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Apr 16, 2015 18:25:23 GMT -6
SSL hardware bus compressor at 2 or 4:1, slowest attack, fastest release, needles just kissing 3db GR. You're welcome. Hey svartwhat does it bring sonically? cheers Wiz |
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 16, 2015 19:20:56 GMT -6
In my opinon two bus compression does not goes together with every stile of music. The higer the crest factor of the music the more critical it is.... The SSL G HW is a little smoother than the Waves modell.... But in 80% of the cases I go without it.....
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Post by svart on Apr 17, 2015 9:59:23 GMT -6
SSL hardware bus compressor at 2 or 4:1, slowest attack, fastest release, needles just kissing 3db GR. You're welcome. Hey svartwhat does it bring sonically? cheers Wiz It adds a little gel but it also follows the signal and rounds it a bit making it have some thump rather than just limiting. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 17, 2015 10:24:19 GMT -6
I think 2-buss compression is over-rated. It was virtually unheard of, at least in California, prior to SSL consoles coming into vogue. The exception was ad agency and jingle work where a one minute spot was recorded and mixed in an hour. Because it affects the balance, mixing into it is important although when I've done it I try to get a decent balance first and then bring it in and re-tweak the balance. The reason I take that approach is because both eq. and compression can optimize a mix for only the monitors they are set up on with not so good results when heard elsewhere.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 17, 2015 15:48:59 GMT -6
I use it once in a while. I do find that my expectations change depending on the song. Say I've mixed something that I think is close and decide to put on a comp. sometimes I'll think to myself before adding it that I'll barely touch it with the compressor. Then end up pulling 2 or 3 in spots because it sounds better. The same can said for the opposite for me, thinking I'll slam something and end up barely touching it or not at all.
All things considered, this is why I find presets useless and for dynamics, even more so. I have been known to stage signals up to match outboard that is set to a sweet spot but that is much different than 2 buss signals because they vary so much.
As always, no right or wrong way to approach a 2 buss IMO. Use what sounds right I guess. I'm all for talking about theses things as points are brought up to learn from, but most if not all on this board are at a very competent level mixing. Not much need to second guess ourselves. If it sounds right, it is right.
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Post by wiz on Apr 17, 2015 17:32:04 GMT -6
Great discussion everyone .. thanks for all the differing view points.
Its surely a very personal decision and I appreciate the time and effort everyone put into their responses..
cheers
Wiz
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Post by carymiller on Apr 18, 2015 18:01:41 GMT -6
Dang carymiller, that's a great post, but my head's gonna explode if I try to follow all those suggestions. If you're ever in Manhattan and want to stop by to give me a few pointers, I'll buy us the best Indian food buffet lunch you ever had, and a IPA too if necessary ! Right now, I'm banging the shit out of a half dozen compressor plugs. They're like a drug habit, y'now? I'll take you up on that next time I have some layover time back North East (I have a serious weakness for quality Indian Food!!) One thing I'll say is I tend to start with signal chains on submixes...and when I mix instrument sections I tend to favor very small signal chains that match for all individual tracks in said submix. IE: if I'm mixing drums maybe they all get the Neve setting on Slates VCC followed by his Neve style EQ in VMR these days...then I won't add extra plugs on individual tracks until time-based FX on AUX sends and the signal chain of EQ's and compressors is mostly dialed in on the submixes for the drums...so if I have to throw in say an 1176 on the snare to help get it to sit/crack I don't need to crush very hard...since I'm mixing the drums like one instrument. When I break out into multiple submixes on one instrument (which I usually do for the drums) each submix gets the same signal chain and starting settings. So again it's cohesive, even when I'm really balancing individual levels. So say I do four submixes on the drums in this example...one mono for kick mult, one mono for snare mult...one stereo for most drum mics...and one final stereo for toms. since almost all signal chains are virtually identical it feels a lot more like I'm mixing on a console in terms of creating a sonic "frame" for all drum sounds (Though nothing beats the real thing in terms of low end response and overall texture.) But now, rebalancing the low end and mid-range driven sections of the drums as you continue to mix is condensed to four faders. The end result leaves you needing far less compression overall even if the submixes are applying 2-4dB of compression across the mix of the drums to start. Also since dominant frequencies are being cut and boosted on the submixes, you wind up needing far less aggressive EQ at any one stage, especially on the individual tracks. Maybe a snare top or bottom, or one of you kicks will get more aggressive EQ chains, but overall you just won't need all that gain and things feel more natural and musical. Things vary mix to mix but this is how I approach starting out. The mix to me is a very fluid thing and I don't like throwing things on randomly to see if something works...usually I'll drive past what I really should be doing if I leave too much to experimentation and I can't afford to waste time like that. |
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), by sticking with the rules I self impose my headroom skyrockets and it frees me to then break the rules when I have to here and there in a creative fashion to get to the finish line. I generally start with template sessions set up as I describe above in order to control my gain staging at every phase...allowing me to get the most out of a compressor, and monitor how I like to have it set as I activate each plugin in turn...or insert if it's hardware.
