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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 0:57:00 GMT -6
I've found this out the hard way. Don't mix truly LCR if you have twin guitars with only L and R tracks. Do 90% L and R. If they were double tracked, you can spread them out 100 and 85. Don't worry about what CLA does. CLA has never mixed any twin guitar rock or metal that sounded good or like a real band. If you hard pan the guitars, you'll destroy the balance in a car or small speakers. Your mix will go from guitar music to vocal and drum focused like a pop record. Mastering can fix it with compression and eq but that will change the sound and wreck the depth that you mixed in. Check your mix in mono all the time. Mash the mono button or get an Auratone 5C or Fostex 6301 to not be seduced by low end or good sound. I like both better than the Avantones.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 13, 2020 6:33:20 GMT -6
I've found this out the hard way. Don't mix truly LCR if you have twin guitars with only L and R tracks. Do 90% L and R. If they were double tracked, you can spread them out 100 and 95. Don't worry about what CLA does. CLA has never mixed any twin guitar rock or metal that sounded good or like a real band. If you hard pan the guitars, you'll destroy the balance in a car or small speakers. Your mix will go from guitar music to vocal and drum focused like a pop record. Mastering can fix it with compression and eq but that will change the sound and wreck the depth that you mixed in. Check your mix in mono all the time. Mash the mono button or get an Auratone 5C or Fostex 6301 to not be seduced by low end or good sound. I like both better than the Avantones. I respectfully disagree. For me it’s LCR or death I did the 90% thing way back. It just reduces the stereo spread for no tangible benefits. My opinion only.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 13, 2020 6:37:26 GMT -6
So my tip here would be: if you are going to break the LCR rule, don’t do a tiny change. Find a place in the stereo field where that track needs to live, where ever that is.
Another tip if you get “LCR scared” is to send everything to a subtle room reverb that diffuses the stereo field a bit, just enough for a headphone listen to feel good.
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Post by Ward on Jul 13, 2020 7:13:35 GMT -6
So my tip here would be: if you are going to break the LCR rule, don’t do a tiny change. Find a place in the stereo field where that track needs to live, where ever that is. Another tip if you get “LCR scared” is to send everything to a subtle room reverb that diffuses the stereo field a bit, just enough for a headphone listen to feel good. Good post! And if I would add anything it would be: Always check the mix in mono as you move along in LCR and make sure everything is in phase!
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Post by drbill on Jul 13, 2020 9:30:02 GMT -6
Here, LCR = NEVER.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 11:49:52 GMT -6
I used to do LCR. I think it's great for simpler arrangements and I typically still locate the core elements of the band that way. The caveat has always been the toms. I can never get wide panned toms to sit right. I always do my best to match the close tom mics to their position in the OH mics. Typically, it ends up being like 30-60% left for the rack and 70-80% right for the floor tom. Sometimes tighter than that. The rack in one ear, floor in the other sounds great on some records that I love, but for the life of me, I've never gotten it to work that way myself.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 13, 2020 12:04:06 GMT -6
I used to do LCR. I think it's great for simpler arrangements and I typically still locate the core elements of the band that way. The caveat has always been the toms. I can never get wide panned toms to sit right. I always do my best to match the close tom mics to their position in the OH mics. Typically, it ends up being like 30-60% left for the rack and 70-80% right for the floor tom. Sometimes tighter than that. The rack in one ear, floor in the other sounds great on some records that I love, but for the life of me, I've never gotten it to work that way myself. I can’t get on with the wide tom spread myself. I can’t deal with the sound of toms being wider than they are when I’m sitting at the kit.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 13, 2020 12:10:57 GMT -6
Unless for special effect, I don't do LCR toms either. The drums start from the overheads, so if I choose to augment that with extra mics, I pan them to their actual stereo positions.
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Post by svart on Jul 13, 2020 12:34:57 GMT -6
LCR all day. Nobody listens to mono recordings anymore, and nobody makes them..
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Post by drbill on Jul 13, 2020 14:26:58 GMT -6
In my world (which is obviously not everyones world) LCR = dumb. LCR = compromised. LCR = not gonna happen here. The damn console has a pan pot on it, and I'm gonna use it!! Edit - BTW, this is not meant as a slight to anyone who decides that mixing LCR is the way to go for them. I just can't go that direction. It's too limiting to my vision.
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Post by peterhess on Jul 15, 2020 12:16:44 GMT -6
If I’m dealing with two guitars, keys, and 5 horns I just can’t make LCR work. And I try every gosh-darned time.
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Post by christopher on Jul 15, 2020 12:25:23 GMT -6
If I were to do LCR, really I’m doing Mono. Think whole band center stage in the spotlight. And only a few elements going to the sides. Think some dancers hard left/right in interesting outfits and lighting that doesn’t draw attention away from center.. more like you look over and notice “oh wow”. So purposeful automation and careful arrangement. It’s a tough one! I can’t seem to do it justice. Somehow the original mono producers made it happen well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 12:30:51 GMT -6
The summation to mono shelves hard panned, high gain guitars too much. 85-95 % panning negate this. Hard panning is especially bad if the guitars weren’t multitracked so you don’t have another to place slightly closer. Your twin guitars can be awesome and wide on your monitors before collapsing in a car because a few db less is fatal to the compressed high gain tone.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jul 16, 2020 2:22:26 GMT -6
LCR mixing makes no sense to me. I'm sorry, I can't really sugarcoat it in any way. I find it extremely unappealing to listen to. It's bad enough in front of a decent set of speakers, set up correctly, but just forget about listening on headphones or in a car.
Please convince me otherwise. Examples of what you consider great mixes done LCR are very welcome.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 16, 2020 16:17:59 GMT -6
LCR mixing makes no sense to me. I'm sorry, I can't really sugarcoat it in any way. I find it extremely unappealing to listen to. It's bad enough in front of a decent set of speakers, set up correctly, but just forget about listening on headphones or in a car. Please convince me otherwise. Examples of what you consider great mixes done LCR are very welcome. I’d say that most great mixes are LCR. Why would you not use the full stereo available to you? Any panning position that’s not LCR will shift with even the smallest head movement of a listener. Your carefully chosen pan positions are essentially random once a listener is between a pair of speakers.
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2020 19:23:11 GMT -6
I’d say that most great mixes are LCR. Why would you not use the full stereo available to you? Any panning position that’s not LCR will shift with even the smallest head movement of a listener. Your carefully chosen pan positions are essentially random once a listener is between a pair of speakers. I'm not sure I could disagree with this more.....
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 16, 2020 19:34:01 GMT -6
I've always thought of LCR as more of a general guideline than a strict set of rules. As with many other bits of advice from big names (mix at low levels, don't listen in solo, top-down mixing, etc.), it seems like someone took what was meant to be a general-purpose soundbite and turned it into gospel. Kind of like the whole -18 gain staging thing.
For me, stereo OHs, stereo rooms, and doubled guitars are hard L/R. Kick, snare, bass, and vocals are center. Everything else goes wherever I want it. If that doesn't work for your desired outcome, there's no shame. Just do what sounds good to you.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jul 17, 2020 1:21:44 GMT -6
I’d say that most great mixes are LCR. As I said, please provide examples. I'm all up for it. Why would you not use the full stereo available to you? I do use the whole field. Depending on the project, reverbs and ambient mics are usually fully stereo. But the instruments themselves are seldom panned more than 50%. More than that and it sounds unnatural to me. I NEVER hard pan any direct sounds. Any panning position that’s not LCR will shift with even the smallest head movement of a listener. Your carefully chosen pan positions are essentially random once a listener is between a pair of speakers. Of course. But I doubt an LCR mix makes any more sense in that scenario anyway. But in a headphone or car situation, there's no doubt in my mind which approach translates better.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 17, 2020 2:07:57 GMT -6
I’ll make a list of my favorite mixes and see if any are not LCR. The thing is, and that’s the key part, that we think we can hear the panpot when we work it but we can’t. There’s quite a bit of literature about it but it’s better to hear for yourself. Close your eyes and get someone else to move the panpot, hear what happens. I’ll concede there’s a blurry zone between the speaker and the ghost center but it takes a LOT of panning for your brain to register that change. Try it. I was skeptical when I started reading about LCR. I tried it and it was like a secret door into the great mixes.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 17, 2020 2:33:06 GMT -6
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jul 17, 2020 2:54:36 GMT -6
I’ll make a list of my favorite mixes and see if any are not LCR. The thing is, and that’s the key part, that we think we can hear the panpot when we work it but we can’t. There’s quite a bit of literature about it but it’s better to hear for yourself. Close your eyes and get someone else to move the panpot, hear what happens. I’ll concede there’s a blurry zone between the speaker and the ghost center but it takes a LOT of panning for your brain to register that change. Try it. I was skeptical when I started reading about LCR. I tried it and it was like a secret door into the great mixes.
Thanks, looking forward to it.
Now, for the bit about not hearing the panning: Colour me extremely sceptical. Please elaborate.
EDIT: Ah, saw the link to the paper now. Will check it out. Thanks.
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Post by schmalzy on Jul 17, 2020 9:50:08 GMT -6
As I said, please provide examples. I'm all up for it. Apparently - coming from his own mouth - Jamie Tate from Nashville is an LCR mixer. His credits include:
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Post by drbill on Jul 17, 2020 9:53:26 GMT -6
The thing is, and that’s the key part, that we think we can hear the panpot when we work it but we can’t. There’s quite a bit of literature about it but it’s better to hear for yourself. Close your eyes and get someone else to move the panpot, hear what happens. I’ll concede there’s a blurry zone between the speaker and the ghost center but it takes a LOT of panning for your brain to register that change. If that's your experience, get better monitoring. Seriously. I can hear all amounts of subtle panning. Including if a mono track that printed as stereo and panned hard L/R is slightly "off" Left to Right and not sitting truly Center. And that's a VERY subtle pan thing. I also have to kind of chuckle when hardcore LCR proponents take a track, mult it, pan one hard L and the other hard R and bring one track up to say....-5dB, and the other up to say -20dB and start expounding on the beauty of their sound field creation. Essentially all they are doing is creating a "manual panning" situation in the mix. LOL
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 17, 2020 10:37:32 GMT -6
I can hear any subtle panning movement too, as long as I'm looking at the panpot My monitoring is fine, really. Purpose-built room designed by a professional, pretty decent monitors, Sonarworks to correct a few dBs, all kinds of metering, and absolutely no translation issues. But yes, I agree with you on its importance. To me, LCR mixing is similar as saying "oh, the drum sound is mostly on the overheads". It's the general philosophy, a starting point, and oftentimes the destination (well at least for LCR!). It also assumes a few things: that you know what a true stereo recording with spatial information is, that you understand what many people call "big mono", etc. I don't think any of that is news to anyone on this board that's not a total beginner. That mult thing... I hope you're talking about some silly YouTube video. If not, I don't know what kind of people you hang with!!!
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 17, 2020 10:41:24 GMT -6
As for examples, I'll add Eric Sarafin (Mixerman) and Tom Petty's "Wildflowers" (my favorite, although I'm pretty sure all his albums ever since are LCR too).
I'd like to hear the opposite: an album where it's cristal clear that guitars are panned 90% and not 100%, and then there's another instrument at 80%, another at 40%, etc. I don't think you can find that at all. Maybe I'm wrong!
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