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Post by timmyboy on Feb 27, 2015 22:17:42 GMT -6
Ok - so I've been trying to get some clarity on this over at the other forum, but it's difficult with all the Steven Slate fanboys ready to pounce on you. This is page 25 of the VIRTUAL MIX RACK user manual. This section is a user guide for the FG-116 compressor (1176 clone). Unless it's just me , Something seems a bit off about the Instructions for the Input / Output knobs. And No - I'm not talking about the typo in one of the sentences. They are saying that if you make sure the input and output knobs equal 48 (or user their 'link' function to join the input / output knobs ) - then the input level and output level will remain at unity as you try out different compression settings. This is a great concept - but if that's true - does it mean the compressor is broken? Correct me if I'm wrong - but won't different ratios affect how much 'make-up gain' is needed on the output to achieve unity? What am I missing here?  |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 27, 2015 23:36:41 GMT -6
FabFilter has a similar feature in ProQ2 i believe. it matches the volume level of the input and output signal so you only hear timbre changes. Why not ask Steven via his support system?
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Post by timmyboy on Feb 28, 2015 2:15:07 GMT -6
FabFilter has a similar feature in ProQ2 i believe. it matches the volume level of the input and output signal so you only hear timbre changes. Why not ask Steven via his support system? I might give that a try. But I was curious what people here make of it. Because it doesn't seem like it's possible |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2015 9:12:35 GMT -6
Probably right...probably just an oversight on their part.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 28, 2015 21:08:50 GMT -6
you're missing the fact that it will automatically calculate the amount of gain required to have the RMS of the output level match the RMS of the input level per chunk of samples processed when you set the settings as defined in the manual. You should ask them this question directly tho.
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Post by timmyboy on Feb 28, 2015 22:06:36 GMT -6
you're missing the fact that it will automatically calculate the amount of gain required to have the RMS of the output level match the RMS of the input level per chunk of samples processed when you set the settings as defined in the manual. You should ask them this question directly tho. Well - that's what I am wondering! If that is the case - that would be awesome, and well worth purchasing. But I'm thinking it's not the case because the user guide says you can do it manually by making sure that the input and output dials equal 48. I'm worried that (at best) the slate guys just don't know how a compressor works. Which sounds ludicrous, I know, because they program compressors. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 28, 2015 22:47:28 GMT -6
did you try to do it or just read the manual about the feature?
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 28, 2015 22:48:06 GMT -6
You should ask them this question directly tho. Well - that's what I am wondering! If that is the case - that would be awesome, and well worth purchasing. But I'm thinking it's not the case because the user guide says you can do it manually by making sure that the input and output dials equal 48. I'm worried that (at best) the slate guys just don't know how a compressor works. Which sounds ludicrous, I know, because they program compressors. |
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 1, 2015 1:16:44 GMT -6
Well - that's what I am wondering! If that is the case - that would be awesome, and well worth purchasing. But I'm thinking it's not the case because the user guide says you can do it manually by making sure that the input and output dials equal 48. I'm worried that (at best) the slate guys just don't know how a compressor works. Which sounds ludicrous, I know, because they program compressors. Sorry, I should have been more clear - I submitted a support request a few days ago. No response yet |
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 1, 2015 1:18:43 GMT -6
did you try to do it or just read the manual about the feature? I just read the manual. I'm trying to decide whether to purchase or not. I got the VMR demo when it first came out and then didn't really get the time to try it much, it's since expired |
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 1, 2015 20:16:33 GMT -6
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 2, 2015 1:53:13 GMT -6
You might need to go back and read my post again. Of course I understand the importance of matching the "before and after" levels . What I am saying is - how much output gain (or "makeup gain") is needed to match the levels changes as you change the compressor settings (specifically - the ratio setting). So simply linking the input and output knobs is not going to work. |
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Post by Randge on Mar 3, 2015 22:58:37 GMT -6
Time to invite Mr. Slate to the party here, huh fellas!
R
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 4, 2015 5:40:02 GMT -6
Time to invite Mr. Slate to the party here, huh fellas! R I'm surprised he hasnt appeared yet. Even on small Facebook groups in Australia, someone mentions his name or one of his products - and he appears like magic |
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Post by lolo on Mar 4, 2015 6:19:32 GMT -6
Slate have post here before. Couple of people bashed him and he vanished. Will be good if he joins the conversations though. I think he makes great products. Been loving VMR so far. Also using the blackbird drums and they are great.
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 4, 2015 18:19:39 GMT -6
Ok - I finally got a response from Slate Technical support. This is the full response...
"Yes, of course it works. Fabrice Gabriel is a mastermind. In the Digital world we aren't limited as to what hardware can do. We can go above and beyond within a plugin."
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Post by gouge on Mar 4, 2015 19:32:40 GMT -6
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 4, 2015 20:42:53 GMT -6
It basically translates to - "Don't be silly, just trust us, our products are infalable" . It's very 'cultish'
I've asked if I can have another demo period to test it out.
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 6, 2015 20:23:42 GMT -6
I got the demo period extended and tried it out. Of course - the feature described in the manual doesn't work at all. It's a compressor - so the harder you push it (and depending on the ratio you use) - the more gain reduction you get (the gain reduction changes as the compressor settings change).
This fine, because it means that the compressor is functioning perfectly like a compressor should - but that whole set of instructions shows that the user manual was written by someone who doesn't even have a clue about how a compressor works. Fabrice may be a master at making hardware emulations, but I have doubts about Steven Slate even knowing what he is talking about when he markets Fabrice's creations.
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 6, 2015 22:06:59 GMT -6
I think what they are trying to say and failing at it is that IF you set the comp to unity gain then LINK the IN/OUT controls you can audition different compression amounts without being fooled by increased gain. It's actually kinda neat and mimics one of the best ways to use an analog 1176 - grabbing the IN and OUT knobs with two hands and cranking one up while lowering the other the same amount. This works on an 1176 since IN and THRESHOLD are the same thing. I can't believe slate is the first company to put this in their emu. It's literally the best way to use the hardware - and I think why i prefer the workflown of the HW unit. (Hope that makes sense or at least more sense than they did) This is complete speculation on my part but I kind of wonder how much SS or FG are involved in these products. I don't doubt FG makes the algos and SS fires up the hype machine and maybe comes up with the concept. But don't you find it odd Fabrice (when responding to an AirEQ feature request) will say something like "yeah, I miss having steeper filters too" like he didn't have control over it - Steven can't seem to answer some questions about functions and makes the same sort of comments about grouping on VCC2... Very odd But that doesn't work either. If you set the compressor to unity gain, and then link the input / output - changing the other settings after that DOES change the level and fool you. Again - I totally understand the concept of linking the input / output knobs on many plugins , and it is a huge benefit on VCC2. But having said that - It can't work on a compressor, and the fact that Slate Digital thinks it can worries me. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 17:33:44 GMT -6
In fact, what is claimed or implicated, would be automatic make up gain to match the (RMS?) level of the input to unity.
Which doesn't obviously work well with any dynamics effect anyhow. Especially in realtime. I am not aware of a plugin that does try to accomplish it. Simply linked controls are kind of useless here. Because it does not really make sense if you think about the principles of what a compressor or dynamic plugin does.
Seems like developer, manual writer, marketing and support are different persons, not really knowing what the others really do...
Especially odd if you ask explicitly about a feature, and the support does simply rephrase marketing slogans instead of researching the actual behaviour. Maybe he/she didn't even understand the question completely.
Odd, but not an exception in software world....
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Post by timmyboy on Mar 9, 2015 4:56:26 GMT -6
In fact, what is claimed or implicated, would be automatic make up gain to match the (RMS?) level of the input to unity. Which doesn't obviously work well with any dynamics effect anyhow. Especially in realtime. I am not aware of a plugin that does try to accomplish it. Simply linked controls are kind of useless here. Because it does not really make sense if you think about the principles of what a compressor or dynamic plugin does. Seems like developer, manual writer, marketing and support are different persons, not really knowing what the others really do... Especially odd if you ask explicitly about a feature, and the support does simply rephrase marketing slogans instead of researching the actual behaviour. Maybe he/she didn't even understand the question completely. Odd, but not an exception in software world.... I just had my faith in humanity restored! You guys are the only people so far who seem to completely understand what I am talking about. Currently I've been using the Waves CLA76 as my 1176 plugin, and a while back when I Demo'd the Virtual mix rack I thought "meh - already have an 1176". When I read the VMR manual (after downloading VCC2, I got excited about the claim of being able to change compressor settings within hearing a change in volume, I thought "The waves version can't do that". You are probably right about the person who wrote the manual not knowing what they are talking about (and I thought that too) - but I still feel like it almost tricked me into spending real money on it based on something that is not true. God I hope I win a real compressor |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Apr 3, 2015 11:37:50 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 3, 2015 11:43:58 GMT -6
And lets be kind to SS - I appreciate him being here and it's a good product.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 3, 2015 14:41:36 GMT -6
it may be too cus in the real 76, increased ratios are positively correlated to input level, as the ratios go up you should increase input level to achieve the targeted ration 4,8,12,20:1 and the opposite holds true too?
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