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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 10:44:20 GMT -6
I got into Daking knowing it was based on the Trident sound.
Just wondering and trying to figure this out - which guy was responsible: Malcom Toft or John Oram. They both seem to think they were. Anyone know?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 24, 2014 10:54:43 GMT -6
I got into Daking knowing it was based on the Trident sound. Just wondering and trying to figure this out - which guy was responsible: Malcom Toft or John Oram. They both seem to think they were. Anyone know? I get the feeling that they are the only two people who truly know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 10:55:42 GMT -6
Nevermind - I think I found it. A quick history: Trident was a studio in the UK that built their own console. Malcolm Toft was in charge of this, came up with the concept, layout, did project management, and Barry Porter (RIP) did the electronics (and he also later designed for Calrec). The result of this effort was the A-Range, and still considered by most to be the finest thing Trident ever produced. They then decided to make a separate company out of it called Trident Audio Developments Ltd., again, with Malcolm at the helm. Several A-Range boards were produced, and a few B-Range boards as well. When the concept for the next console, the TSM, was coming together, this new idea of parametric EQ had been introduced (see George Massenburg and Burgess Macneil), and John Oram was brought in to consult on that, following Malcolm's specifications. When the Series 80 came around, Oram was involved even more heavily, but still not the only technical engineer, and Malcolm was still the idea man and decision maker, doing layout and listening to bread-board mock ups and such, but not doing much in the way of electronic design on paper. After a while, they both left the company before the later products like the series 90 and Di-an came out. Then Trident folded. After this, John and Malcolm each registered a different version of the Trident name, and this brings us to the current debacle. This certainly is not a complete history, but it comes from my direct conversations with the three people mentioned above, and other people involved with Trident over the years. Trident was Malcolm's baby, though John certainly made a significant contribution to later consoles. I think both are quite capable of making Series 80 style products (but not necessarily at $3K), though A-Range would be more Malcolm's domain. __________________ Jay Frigoletto Mastersuite www.promastering.comwww.studiometronome.com
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 10:56:01 GMT -6
I got into Daking knowing it was based on the Trident sound. Just wondering and trying to figure this out - which guy was responsible: Malcom Toft or John Oram. They both seem to think they were. Anyone know? I get the feeling that they are the only two people who truly know. You may be right! I had no idea this was discussed to the ends of earth until after posting - sorry. I had been aware of both guys and their companies but never put 2 and 2 together. I got to thinking about the gear due to Ric Fox's build thread where he has an Oram mixer. I think it'd be great to own for summing and EQ'ing, or something from Toft which got wondering - wait a minute, whose sounds like the real deal. A nice unit would compliment my Daking workflow quite nicely.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 24, 2014 11:03:52 GMT -6
Probably explains why Oram only does 80B stuff and not A-Range. I have a PMI 80B reissue, but would love to get my hands on the A-Range. Just something about the EQ faders gets me fired up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 11:16:25 GMT -6
LOL. I agree about the EQ faders. Pretty slick. So does this leave one to interpret that Oram's gear sounds more 80 series and Toft's more A-range?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 24, 2014 11:21:58 GMT -6
I would imagine that they both do the 80 Series well, but I think only Toft really does the A-Range. Although, Toft is now out of PMI and doing his own Ocean Audio thing, while PMI has the Trident name and A-Range Reissue. Ocean Audio doesn't seem to have anything A-Range inspired. Also, Daking is just inspired by the A-Range I think, not recreations.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 11:25:34 GMT -6
I would imagine that they both do the 80 Series well, but I think only Toft really does the A-Range. Although, Toft is now out of PMI and doing his own Ocean Audio thing, while PMI has the Trident name and A-Range Reissue. Ocean Audio doesn't seem to have anything A-Range inspired. Also, Daking is just inspired by the A-Range I think, not recreations. Yes, I agree with you that all of that seems right. I guess my lingering question is "what does ocean stuff and what does oram stuff sound like"?
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Post by drbill on Nov 24, 2014 13:17:03 GMT -6
The fight between the two of them as to who designed what has been going on for well over a decade.
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Post by keymod on Nov 24, 2014 15:39:27 GMT -6
The fight between the two of them as to who designed what has been going on for well over a decade. It's one of those topics, like Religion & Politics, that probably shouldn't be discussed amongst friends
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 24, 2014 16:09:35 GMT -6
Ok, The guys at Smart were my clients and I try to catch up with Mike Zirkel, the last Manager and the only RE I can think of who had a band name there album named after him. ironically the Only other Mike Zirkel in Madison was my burn nurse and also a close freind. Anyway I have sat behind that A Range, or at least " A Range Based console". It is a thing of sonic nirvana, but as it and all the other remaining A Ranges, have been lovingly nursed for years with little to no spares and no 2 channels act or sound quite the same ( good enough for rock and roll, but you wouldn't try to do Classical this deep in the book. Those I know who have had The chance to use an A Range or a B know 2 different schools of the 3 prong fork, the Discrete letters are seen as different but run with the Early Discreet Neves and API's, the later Monolithic IC boards the ones with numbers and later are similar in Sonics and and design to their British Cousins Soundcraft, DDA ect. I know there are those in the audio world who Put the 80 and derivatives on a holy alter, but to a man all have had at some point a buisness interest involving non ABC Tridents. The Magic was Mr Porter, the others are good but, not great and really not that different from their contempories, But legends sell gear and Marketing guys know how to make a legend, if it was only as easy to build a legendary console, ask those who have invested their money in the names and egos most associated with Trident.
The A Range was the starting point for Geoffe Daking, as many of the bits were obtainable, Geoffe created his own legendary bit of kit with his own thoughts on what a console should be.
I hear Paul Wolf almost drove himself nuts trying to build a A Range module in today's world for Alan Hyatt, I hear those who know both are very impressed with his take, but again What do you judge it against. I Don't think Mr Toft, o Oram make bad gear, I think they make good gear, just not great gear and have ridden the coat tails of Mr Porter the true father of Trident Consoles.
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 24, 2014 23:59:45 GMT -6
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 25, 2014 0:25:23 GMT -6
Ive heard both and chose the one I thought were leaps better. It's cleanish with a hint of warmth, quirky like Oram and has headroom galore. The eqs are good and so are the preamps...solid midrange. At the price I got it for it's a steal. From all the DA converters I used I thought the Symphony was probably the best...I compared the direct out from the symphony and then the DA through the console and it sounded almost identical...maybe a tad better, that says to me the board wasn't mucking things up. I trust my ears and this is a solid board.
I don't think after talking to John on multiple occasions that the tiff was between John and Malcom....as a matter of fact, John calls him a friend and basically said a wedge was driven between from (if my memory serves me well) the PMI group. Im pretty sure the Toft boards are built in China now also.
Pros--Great sounding little console with cool monitoring facilities and lots of routing capabilities. It has 8 busses with inserts on all of them and 8 aux sends. Master Buss insert and pretty accurate meters. Preamps are dead quiet all the way to maximum gain and are good sounding. Eqs are great...Hi shelf (12k and 8K) two sweepable mid bands and a low shelf eq. Low filter is at 60 and 120Hz.
Cons---Knobs are cheap!! Routing takes some time getting use to.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 26, 2014 10:38:05 GMT -6
Outside the A range, the TSM, 80, 70, 2400, 65 are all TL071 opamp based designs. They sound like an 071 opamp. I've got a 70 in now, it's got new LME opamps, a 20k mid sweep range and no electrolytic coupling caps, it's all direct coupled now, mic in to mix out.
Yes, it doesn't sound like your "father's of British EQ" Trident.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 26, 2014 10:52:00 GMT -6
Outside the A range, the TSM, 80, 70, 2400, 65 are all TL071 opamp based designs. They sound like an 071 opamp. I've got a 70 in now, it's got new LME opamps, a 20k mid sweep range and no electrolytic coupling caps, it's all direct coupled now, mic in to mix out. Yes, it doesn't sound like your "father's of British EQ" Trident. Hey Jim, I have the Trident 80B reissue. It has the TL071 opamp and the Lundahl 1538 transformer in it. It seems like the Focusrite ISA stuff also uses the same transformer, but a 5534 op amp. Do you know how similar these pres sound? How much of the tone does the Lundahl impart?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:30:38 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the educational posts.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 26, 2014 15:37:44 GMT -6
Malcolm told me that he was the original recording engineer and then moved on to manage both the studio and the console business. The A-Range is what made their reputation. They had been built to replace a pair of smaller Sound Techniques A-Range consoles that were built by another London studio.
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 26, 2014 17:28:11 GMT -6
I wonder how much of the Geoff Frost Sound Techniques A-Range design ended up in the Trident A-Range boards? Sounds like Ken Scott would know as he was working at Trident Studios at that time. There is some cool info here where he mentions Toft. www.uaudio.com/blog/ken-scott-uad-epik-drums/
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 26, 2014 19:28:12 GMT -6
I wonder how much of the Geoff Frost Sound Techniques A-Range design ended up in the Trident A-Range boards? Sounds like Ken Scott would know as he was working at Trident Studios at that time. There is some cool info here where he mentions Toft. www.uaudio.com/blog/ken-scott-uad-epik-drums/Not sure but I do know this , as much as someone would want credit for the sound, I would not want to be known for the unorganized rats nest of cables I remember anytime Lonya was working on the thing ! Makes an old API like yours look like a Boeing jet!
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 27, 2014 10:39:55 GMT -6
Outside the A range, the TSM, 80, 70, 2400, 65 are all TL071 opamp based designs. They sound like an 071 opamp. I've got a 70 in now, it's got new LME opamps, a 20k mid sweep range and no electrolytic coupling caps, it's all direct coupled now, mic in to mix out. Yes, it doesn't sound like your "father's of British EQ" Trident. Hey Jim, I have the Trident 80B reissue. It has the TL071 opamp and the Lundahl 1538 transformer in it. It seems like the Focusrite ISA stuff also uses the same transformer, but a 5534 op amp. Do you know how similar these pres sound? How much of the tone does the Lundahl impart? Not at all similar to the original design. Those used Zutt Transformers with a sprinkling of others. Turns ratio is different, bandwidth is different etc. The Flexmix and 80 used the same mic pre design, one of the worst ever. It's an inverting 071 opamp feeding second inverting stage. It creates a variable load to the transformer secondary. At lower gains it rings with overshoot, at higher gains it sags. Yes, it can be fixed by cutting traces and swapping parts to make the first stage non-inverting with a fixed load. I've used Jensen JT-13KC 1/5 ratio transformers in those and they sound pretty good that way.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 9, 2015 13:57:37 GMT -6
LOL. I agree about the EQ faders. Pretty slick. So does this leave one to interpret that Oram's gear sounds more 80 series and Toft's more A-range? Hey Rob, check this puppy out! Just came in the mail!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:59:31 GMT -6
oooohhhhh.... very nice man!! Who makes that - how much and how do you like the sound?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2015 14:02:26 GMT -6
WHAT?? An A Range clone??
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 9, 2015 14:05:57 GMT -6
It's an older Trident-MTA (Malcom Toft Associates) unit from I think 2000ish. They don't have a great rep (and I'm sure Jim will chime in saying they're crap), but whatever, I wanted to check it out. Looks pretty rad, the gain and all frequencies are switched, faders have a center detent, and the output knob is a stepped pot. Knowing me though, I'll probably be posted for sale in a couple months when I see something else that I'm looking to try out.
...this is why I bailed on the Softube sale.
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Post by odyssey76 on Jan 10, 2015 5:31:48 GMT -6
LOL. I agree about the EQ faders. Pretty slick. So does this leave one to interpret that Oram's gear sounds more 80 series and Toft's more A-range? Hey Rob, check this puppy out! Just came in the mail! Nice. Let us know how those EQ's sound. I've always been much more interested in the EQ's than the pres - although of course curious how those sound as well.
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