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Post by M57 on Nov 18, 2014 6:42:59 GMT -6
I don't doubt this has been discussed here before - but I did a quick search and couldn't find it (too many hits).
As the plugins emulate better and better, is there a good reason to even bother with outboard compression/EQ/channelstrips on the way in?
Against: The real gear costs significantly more; there's no 'undo.'
For: It's nice for the musician to sound good right from the get-go, though I'm pretty sure notwithstanding latency issues this can be addressed. And then there's the nothing beats the real thing argument.
How do you all sit on this issue? - Even if I had the gear, should I use it?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 18, 2014 7:47:32 GMT -6
It is very much a personal choice, many myself included, find the best plugin emulations still fall short of the real thing. I view my DAW as a multitrack and editor.
To these ears the best plugins are those that try to be there own thing not those that try to be a replacement for outboard.
Honestly most of us wish we could do it in the box, templates and recall would speed and ease workflow, and why many have migrated away from outboard.
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Post by M57 on Nov 18, 2014 9:58:06 GMT -6
It is very much a personal choice, many myself included, find the best plugin emulations still fall short of the real thing. I view my DAW as a multitrack and editor. To these ears the best plugins are those that try to be there own thing not those that try to be a replacement for outboard. Honestly most of us wish we could do it in the box, templates and recall would speed and ease workflow, and why many have migrated away from outboard. So assuming we're dealing with a single track, and you have a something like a 1176 - why track it? Why not have it on an aux send where you can tweak it later? I mean - technically, if you wanted to use it on a number of tracks you could bounce them individually later - a pita, but later is always better ?? - and if you save the original track, un-doable. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 18, 2014 10:02:24 GMT -6
As one that only uses "plug in's" with real plugs on them, I never commit any EQ to tracking. I usually never commit to any compression, electric bass and vocals are an exception.
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Post by M57 on Nov 18, 2014 10:12:21 GMT -6
As one that only uses "plug in's" with real plugs on them, I never commit any EQ to tracking. I usually never commit to any compression, electric bass and vocals are an exception. So why are Bass and Vocals the exception? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 18, 2014 10:37:48 GMT -6
I may filter some top and bottom, but If you have enough outboard gear, I'm a believer in tracking as raw as possible, no compression or eq unless you find yourself in an uncontrollable situation, you should be able to get as close to what you picture in your head with mic choice/placement, this leaves you with all options still available come mix time(meaning you cant un eq and compress after you realize it's going to be a sparse mix, and you rolled off at 160hz, and 12:1'd the acoustic guitar  ) My personal on going build plan is based around this approach, I will be mixing ITB and using plug emulations of my outboard gear (or similar family), once i get the balances i need and the  is satisfied with the mix, (living with the pre final for a week or so will be mandatory, and written into any deal i make, i will be picking and choosing my recordee's, not the other way round 8) I move the whole operation OTB for final mixing/summing, matching my ITB settings and tweaking from there. I feel this is a pretty practical approach to hybrid mixing, and then final OTB mixing should be some pretty dramatic icing on the cake 8) (of course I will very much document all OTB parameter settings just in case of a recall requirement/request) |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 18, 2014 10:49:52 GMT -6
I may filter some top and bottom, but If you have enough outboard gear, I'm a believer in tracking as raw as possible, no compression or eq unless you find yourself in an uncontrollable situation, you should be able to get as close to what you picture in your head with mic choice/placement, this leaves you with all options still available come mix time(meaning you cant un eq and compress after you realize it's going to be a sparse mix, and you rolled off at 160hz, and 12:1'd the acoustic guitar ) My personal on going build plan is based around this approach, I will be mixing ITB and using plug emulations of my outboard gear (or similar family), once i get the balances i need and the is satisfied with the mix, (living with the pre final for a week or so will be mandatory, and written into any deal i make, i will be picking and choosing my recordee's, not the other way round 8) I move the whole operation OTB for final mixing/summing, matching my ITB settings and tweaking from there. I feel this is a pretty practical approach to hybrid mixing, and then final OTB mixing should be some pretty dramatic icing on the cake 8) (of course I will very much document all OTB parameter settings just in case of a recall requirement/request) Time out. tonycamphd, have you lost your mind? Your plan is to track dry, mix in the box using plugs, then when you have the mix the way you want with the plugs, swap out all the plugs and do a final mix with hardware? Why not just mix on your hardware from the start? The gainstaging when you disable all of the plugs and initiate all the hardware will be all screwed up. It'll be like doing a whole new mix. Time back in.  I'm like a bit of both camps, depending on the situation. If I'm going to track a full band at once, I'll use hardware and eq on the way in to get the mix as close as possible to finished while tracking. If all of the pieces are there, and you can do it, why not? If I'm multi-tracking and piecing the track together, I prefer to use more minimal compression and eq. Just minor tweaks to get the dynamics reeled in or maybe a bit of high pass. |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 18, 2014 10:58:59 GMT -6
The more I do this, the more I want to commit on the way in. There's something about having the entire band in the room and tweaking things like the kick and bass and slight compression/limiting to prevent clipping and give some tightness to the sound of the band through your speakers in the control room. I feel more involved that way and enjoy the job better.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 18, 2014 11:08:33 GMT -6
I may filter some top and bottom, but If you have enough outboard gear, I'm a believer in tracking as raw as possible, no compression or eq unless you find yourself in an uncontrollable situation, you should be able to get as close to what you picture in your head with mic choice/placement, this leaves you with all options still available come mix time(meaning you cant un eq and compress after you realize it's going to be a sparse mix, and you rolled off at 160hz, and 12:1'd the acoustic guitar ) My personal on going build plan is based around this approach, I will be mixing ITB and using plug emulations of my outboard gear (or similar family), once i get the balances i need and the is satisfied with the mix, (living with the pre final for a week or so will be mandatory, and written into any deal i make, i will be picking and choosing my recordee's, not the other way round 8) I move the whole operation OTB for final mixing/summing, matching my ITB settings and tweaking from there. I feel this is a pretty practical approach to hybrid mixing, and then final OTB mixing should be some pretty dramatic icing on the cake 8) (of course I will very much document all OTB parameter settings just in case of a recall requirement/request) Time back in. I'm like a bit of both camps, depending on the situation. If I'm going to track a full band at once, I'll use hardware and eq on the way in to get the mix as close as possible to finished while tracking. If all of the pieces are there, and you can do it, why not? If I'm multi-tracking and piecing the track together, I prefer to use more minimal compression and eq. Just minor tweaks to get the dynamics reeled in or maybe a bit of high pass. I'll answer one at a time, 1st.. yes of course i've lost my mind 8), 2nd, yes, it's not like i haven't though it through, in theory this is exactly what i'm going to do, if everything is calibrated properly there shouldn't be any difference in gain structure from the first insert point, i will of course utilize ITB functions(hence hybrid), and i'm sure there will be quite a bit of pains in streamlining a system that works for me, but i expect that I will eventually and indeed be able to refine it and pare it down into a very useful and more templated system, there is the possibility it won't work, but i doubt it. If it doesn't pan out for the reasons you say(ITB gain staging being that off, and un adjustable?), it will only serve to prove that ITB is total crap, but i don't believe that will be the case. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 18, 2014 11:16:37 GMT -6
tonycamphd, I think you missed adding to the last post.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 18, 2014 12:48:54 GMT -6
In the last couple of years, I've committed with the Sta-Level on the way in. Maybe I'll start tracking with a UAD compressor without printing and then use the Sta in mixing.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 18, 2014 13:02:00 GMT -6
Time out. tonycamphd, have you lost your mind? Your plan is to track dry, mix in the box using plugs, then when you have the mix the way you want with the plugs, swap out all the plugs and do a final mix with hardware? Why not just mix on your hardware from the start? The gainstaging when you disable all of the plugs and initiate all the hardware will be all screwed up. It'll be like doing a whole new mix. Time back in. I'm like a bit of both camps, depending on the situation. If I'm going to track a full band at once, I'll use hardware and eq on the way in to get the mix as close as possible to finished while tracking. If all of the pieces are there, and you can do it, why not? If I'm multi-tracking and piecing the track together, I prefer to use more minimal compression and eq. Just minor tweaks to get the dynamics reeled in or maybe a bit of high pass. I'll answer one at a time, 1st.. yes of course i've lost my mind 8), 2nd, yes, it's not like i haven't though it through, in theory this is exactly what i'm going to do, if everything is calibrated properly there shouldn't be any difference in gain structure from the first insert point, i will of course utilize ITB functions(hence hybrid), and i'm sure there will be quite a bit of pains in streamlining a system that works for me, but i expect that I will eventually and indeed be able to refine it and pare it down into a very useful and more templated system, there is the possibility it won't work, but i doubt it. If it doesn't pan out for the reasons you say(ITB gain staging being that off, and un adjustable?), it will only serve to prove that ITB is total crap, but i don't believe that will be the case. Specifically, when I say gain staging, I know that if I set the input/output knobs on my IK Black76, it's different from my Waves CLA76 and my Warm WA76, The plug controls don't match my hardware. That's why I think you're mix will blow up when you switch from soft to hard. Make sense? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 18, 2014 14:04:30 GMT -6
I'll answer one at a time, 1st.. yes of course i've lost my mind 8), 2nd, yes, it's not like i haven't though it through, in theory this is exactly what i'm going to do, if everything is calibrated properly there shouldn't be any difference in gain structure from the first insert point, i will of course utilize ITB functions(hence hybrid), and i'm sure there will be quite a bit of pains in streamlining a system that works for me, but i expect that I will eventually and indeed be able to refine it and pare it down into a very useful and more templated system, there is the possibility it won't work, but i doubt it. If it doesn't pan out for the reasons you say(ITB gain staging being that off, and un adjustable?), it will only serve to prove that ITB is total crap, but i don't believe that will be the case. Specifically, when I say gain staging, I know that if I set the input/output knobs on my IK Black76, it's different from my Waves CLA76 and my Warm WA76, The plug controls don't match my hardware. That's why I think you're mix will blow up when you switch from soft to hard. Make sense? it does make sense, I hope to figure out the characteristics of each and work out quick and repeatable exchanges..? I feel pretty confident in may ability to match those levels pretty quick by ear, if not, i'll figure out another way. This is not going to be a mass production rig, this is for my personal use, and for others that i want to share it with, a mix can stay up on the console for weeks if i care to. I just fired up my new to me console for the first time and i'm running tests of kidvibes Vp28 through it... all sounding sweet! |
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Post by wiz on Nov 18, 2014 17:13:20 GMT -6
If the outboard is part of the sound and or performance .. then thats when I use it.
Eg, LA2A bass guitar.
STA vocals, sometimes acoustic guitar.
LA500 when I am playing slide resonator
1176/LA2A when doing backing vocals.. though each pass can sometimes get a different preamp/compressor combination when I am doing stack vocals.
In particular.. singing through the STA is just a magical experience. ... you feel "supported" by its compression... and I, perform much much better.
I can also monitor at near zero latency, which is a HUGE issue for me as a singer.. guitar player not so much, but its always better.
cheers
Wiz
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 18, 2014 18:22:41 GMT -6
It is very much a personal choice, many myself included, find the best plugin emulations still fall short of the real thing. I view my DAW as a multitrack and editor. To these ears the best plugins are those that try to be there own thing not those that try to be a replacement for outboard. Honestly most of us wish we could do it in the box, templates and recall would speed and ease workflow, and why many have migrated away from outboard. So assuming we're dealing with a single track, and you have a something like a 1176 - why track it? Why not have it on an aux send where you can tweak it later? I mean - technically, if you wanted to use it on a number of tracks you could bounce them individually later - a pita, but later is always better ?? - and if you save the original track, un-doable. Compression on an aux is parrelle compression, if you mix to singles on any type of buss and compress the compressor will key off the sum of the mix not the individual sources . If I track with wet, I will also record a dry track, no reason not to in the age of the DAW. So many of the tracks I get that need to be salvaged are victims of " The effect sounded great when soloed" but they just don't fit as a unit! Much easier for a mixer to deal with bare tracks, You can't undo analog ! |
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 19, 2014 10:03:58 GMT -6
As one that only uses "plug in's" with real plugs on them, I never commit any EQ to tracking. I usually never commit to any compression, electric bass and vocals are an exception. So why are Bass and Vocals the exception? 99% of bass players don't have a consistant level. A comp smooths them out as I found that helps them in tracking by hearing it "in place". I use a modified Aphex 651 with settings determined by the players style. With vocals, same thing, most vocalists like hearing their vocals with smoothed out levels in the cans. I like to avoid 'overs' and buried notes. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 19, 2014 10:42:19 GMT -6
As someone like me who records himself, it would be idiotic to record with Eq/Compression (except for filtering.) Now I do like to monitor with Heavy Compression (helps me with vocal placement) and use Sony 7506 headphone for tracking (because they're brighter) The Apollo was brilliant/easy for this and I can do it with Native HD. Then I can do everything after the fact and get it just like I need it and I don't have to worry about too much or bad Comp/EQ that could be un-fixable. I also can do this with the Phoenix Nicerizer as it has two identical outs...just send one to eq/comp and send one straight to AD. If I am recording someone else where I can tweak before hitting record I have no problem printing that.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 19, 2014 11:02:15 GMT -6
So why are Bass and Vocals the exception? 99% of bass players don't have a consistant level. A comp smooths them out as I found that helps them in tracking by hearing it "in place". I use a modified Aphex 651 with settings determined by the players style. With vocals, same thing, most vocalists like hearing their vocals with smoothed out levels in the cans. I like to avoid 'overs' and buried notes. I run my true 1972 jazz bass through a bo hansen di, into a vp28 set pretty benignly, this chain seems to eq/compress on its own, i end up with a tightly packed/dense growly tone, it sounds really good. It seems as soon as i start to F with it even a little, it turns south and starts losing it's natural presence, so i leave it alone. My bass is one of those basses though..... Also like has been mentioned, i'll smash the heck out of a vox in a monitor mix with little regard, you want it? you got it. But it stays off the recorded track, if something is way out of control, one of jims 651 mods grabs the overs and you'll never know they happened... |
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Post by drbill on Nov 19, 2014 11:57:49 GMT -6
The beauty of tracking a sound as it SHOULD sound is that your faders up rough mixes always sound like a record, you always know if it's going to work instead of hoping for the best and putting off the decisions, and people overdubbing always have a better take on what something will eventually sound like. Also, I find that committing up front raises the bar and makes everyone step up to the plate and perform (musician, engineer, vocalist, producer or whoever) better. (Much in the same way that recording to tape elicits the same sort of reactions.) Options for later days are nice, but can be a millstone around your neck. Classic iconic old school records were made by engineers who knew what to do and did it when they were tracking.
If you're not sure, then of course, track all 3 kick drum mics for later summing, EQ and compression. Otherwise......make a record while you're tracking.
Just my $.02.
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Post by M57 on Nov 19, 2014 13:00:45 GMT -6
The beauty of tracking a sound as it SHOULD sound is that your faders up rough mixes always sound like a record, you always know if it's going to work instead of hoping for the best and putting off the decisions, and people overdubbing always have a better take on what something will eventually sound like. Also, I find that committing up front raises the bar and makes everyone step up to the plate and perform (musician, engineer, vocalist, producer or whoever) better. (Much in the same way that recording to tape elicits the same sort of reactions.) Options for later days are nice, but can be a millstone around your neck. Classic iconic old school records were made by engineers who knew what to do and did it when they were tracking. If you're not sure, then of course, track all 3 kick drum mics for later summing, EQ and compression. Otherwise......make a record while you're tracking. Just my $.02. The logical, part of me wants to respond, "Hello. Join the 21st Century," but my gut says, "Yeah, That's what I want to hear - this is art, not a science project." So there's this pragmatic part that's rising to the top of this schizophrenic dialog in my head that saying, "So why not lightly EQ/Compress on the way in and get a little of both worlds." After all, if you know what you're doing, you should have a vision of where things are going in the first place, right? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2014 13:17:53 GMT -6
The beauty of tracking a sound as it SHOULD sound is that your faders up rough mixes always sound like a record, you always know if it's going to work instead of hoping for the best and putting off the decisions, and people overdubbing always have a better take on what something will eventually sound like. Also, I find that committing up front raises the bar and makes everyone step up to the plate and perform (musician, engineer, vocalist, producer or whoever) better. (Much in the same way that recording to tape elicits the same sort of reactions.) Options for later days are nice, but can be a millstone around your neck. Classic iconic old school records were made by engineers who knew what to do and did it when they were tracking. If you're not sure, then of course, track all 3 kick drum mics for later summing, EQ and compression. Otherwise......make a record while you're tracking. Just my $.02. The logical, part of me wants to respond, "Hello. Join the 21st Century," but my gut says, "Yeah, That's what I want to hear - this is art, not a science project." So there's this pragmatic part that's rising to the top of this schizophrenic dialog in my head that saying, "So why not lightly EQ/Compress on the way in and get a little of both worlds." After all, if you know what you're doing, you should have a vision of where things are going in the first place, right? The thing to remember is that as much vision of what you want a project to be at the beginning , things have this way of organicly morphing over time, like I said its easy to print with treatment and print it dry these days, but then living in the world of live and broadcast I learned the value of a back up! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 19, 2014 13:18:28 GMT -6
The beauty of tracking a sound as it SHOULD sound is that your faders up rough mixes always sound like a record, you always know if it's going to work instead of hoping for the best and putting off the decisions, and people overdubbing always have a better take on what something will eventually sound like. Also, I find that committing up front raises the bar and makes everyone step up to the plate and perform (musician, engineer, vocalist, producer or whoever) better. (Much in the same way that recording to tape elicits the same sort of reactions.) Options for later days are nice, but can be a millstone around your neck. Classic iconic old school records were made by engineers who knew what to do and did it when they were tracking. If you're not sure, then of course, track all 3 kick drum mics for later summing, EQ and compression. Otherwise......make a record while you're tracking. Just my $.02. The logical, part of me wants to respond, "Hello. Join the 21st Century," but my gut says, "Yeah, That's what I want to hear - this is art, not a science project." So there's this pragmatic part that's rising to the top of this schizophrenic dialog in my head that saying, "So why not lightly EQ/Compress on the way in and get a little of both worlds." After all, if you know what you're doing, you should have a vision of where things are going in the first place, right? not to be disagreeable, but logic would dictate this to be the exact opposite, Bruce Swedien swore by this and i buy into it big time, i like to have total control at mix time, having compressed away transients, and skewed phase relationships on the way in with eq is a mistake best left in the past, and tantamount to taking color choices off your easel. Of course, we are talking art, so do as you see fit if it's your own project, if it's someone elses project, you should think 2wice about being presumptuous with their vision. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 19, 2014 13:30:40 GMT -6
For a guy that seems to prefer the sound of the old records, I'm surprised that you're so into leaving everything to mixing. I expect that the majority of the records and sounds that you dig were done with the opposite mentality. Bunch of cats, recording at the same time, mixing while tracking. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 19, 2014 13:53:41 GMT -6
For a guy that seems to prefer the sound of the old records, I'm surprised that you're so into leaving everything to mixing. I expect that the majority of the records and sounds that you dig were done with the opposite mentality. Bunch of cats, recording at the same time, mixing while tracking. well, thats only half right, i own dozens of pieces of Jim Williams modded gear, he is Captain Clean/Tyrant of Transparent 8) I also own plenty of flavor gear, so i'm a best of both worlds guy. That said, i much prefer the musicianship and collaborative creation that came from back in the day, there are great musicians and records coming out today for sure, but it's anemic by comparison. I'd also say great musicians always mix themselves, it doesn't matter the era, i always wished the overall fidelity was better from back then, mostly in the bottom end, but IMO there were standouts that sound as good as anything ever recorded coming from the mid 70's. |
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Post by drbill on Nov 19, 2014 14:50:27 GMT -6
Well....here's the bottom line. In regards to committing......Sometimes I LIKE having barriers. It makes me think different and be creative. I often enjoy getting backed up against the wall and having to find a solution that's not what I envisioned. It's uncomfortable at first, but almost always yields something special for me when I find a solution.
But almost always, I can hear stuff "finished" before the first note is played, and if I know what I want, recording it the way I want to hear it is best for me. One caveat though - delays. Sometimes I'll record the delay to a separate track so that the "depth" can change in the mix. I don't ALWAYS work this way (committing out of the gate), but if I can, it's the best way to work IMO.
I was talking with CLA's assistant at AES and I believe he said he "average" number of tracks coming in was 120. But lots of times approaching 180+.
Come mix time, that's a nightmare, and kills the creative instinct. If all your tracks sound the way they should, creativity takes front seat. Maybe Bruce did't have control over what HE wanted the tracks to sound like. Maybe someone else is pushing him their direction and that's why he didn't want to commit. I understand that. But it doesn't change my perception - I'M the producer and I KNOW what I want it to sound like. Why not commit. It's more exciting, yields more unexpected results, and is more FUN.
My $0.02. -- And I would expect you to leave it if you don't know what you want your track to sound like from the outset or if someone else is in control that doesn't know what THEY want it to sound like. IMO there's nothing like pushing all the faders up to unity and hearing your mix as it should sound.
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) 
is satisfied with the mix,(living with the pre final for a week or so will be mandatory, and written into any deal i make, i will be picking and choosing my recordee's, not the other way round 8) I move the whole operation OTB for final mixing/summing, matching my ITB settings and tweaking from there. I feel this is a pretty practical approach to hybrid mixing, and then final OTB mixing should be some pretty dramatic icing on the cake 8)
