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Post by ben on Oct 27, 2014 11:21:13 GMT -6
I'm considering building a C12 clone and had a question about the various transformers people use. What would be the sonic difference between the Cinemag CM-2480 and the CM-13114? I hear the 13114 is closer to the AMI T14 (which I'm leaning more toward), but before I make my final decision, I'd like to get some input from those who have more experience. Thanks.
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2014 11:53:45 GMT -6
In C12's the capsule and tube make a lot bigger difference than the transformer. I'd just go for the closer one if you can afford it, but I wouldn't worry terribly if you need to go with a different one.
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Post by ben on Oct 27, 2014 12:25:33 GMT -6
The cost is not really a factor, since they are all in the relative ballpark there. They are also all readily available, so that's not an issue either. Just wondering which would give the closest sound. I have a beautiful pair of NOS GE 5 Star tubes from Bowie, and I'm going to test some caps. I have a Beesneez CK12 now, going to get an HK12 from Chunger when they are available, and I've emailed Tim C. (again) to get a CT12. Also sourcing some NOS caps and resistors to give me that no-so-clean feeling  |
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 27, 2014 15:27:01 GMT -6
I chose the AMI for mine, AMI trannies are really great anyways. Getting a capsule from Tim is no easy task, which is why Shannon and I have set out on a quest to create something that will be even better than that capsule (yeah, I said it, and we're gonna back it up too). I just built the Chunger circuit, you can check out my thread in DIY on the Apex 460 mod and listen to all the stages of modification of that microphone thus far, all that is left is the capsule which is something that is going to be amazing and unique in it's own right. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2014 16:16:32 GMT -6
I chose the AMI for mine, AMI trannies are really great anyways. Getting a capsule from Tim is no easy task, which is why Shannon and I have set out on a quest to create something that will be even better than that capsule (yeah, I said it, and we're gonna back it up too). I just built the Chunger circuit, you can check out my thread in DIY on the Apex 460 mod and listen to all the stages of modification of that microphone thus far, all that is left is the capsule which is something that is going to be amazing and unique in it's own right. thats a tall order, and if anyone can do it, its Sinsay! he is Thee Man...man! Shane(category5) was raving about the cinemag tranny for the C12(i think?), he said it has a little less bite to it, which is a good thing if you plan on using it for vox, my C12 has the ami, and has that bite, but it is so damn perfect for acoustic stringed instruments, i can't bring myself to mess with it any farther. I'm building a pair of elam 251's, and Shann will be dialing them in for me, he knows intimately the best sounding mics on the planet(including Martina's 251!), and more importantly, he knows how to make our mics sound damn close to those mics... in this day, we are seriously lucky guys with the talent that is available to us! |
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 27, 2014 16:37:16 GMT -6
I chose the AMI for mine, AMI trannies are really great anyways. Getting a capsule from Tim is no easy task, which is why Shannon and I have set out on a quest to create something that will be even better than that capsule (yeah, I said it, and we're gonna back it up too). I just built the Chunger circuit, you can check out my thread in DIY on the Apex 460 mod and listen to all the stages of modification of that microphone thus far, all that is left is the capsule which is something that is going to be amazing and unique in it's own right. thats a tall order, and if anyone can do it, its Sinsay! he is Thee Man...man! Shane(category5) was raving about the cinemag tranny for the C12(i think?), he said it has a little less bite to it, which is a good thing if you plan on using it for vox, my C12 has the ami, and has that bite, but it is so damn perfect for acoustic stringed instruments, i can't bring myself to mess with it any farther. I'm building a pair of elam 251's, and Shann will be dialing them in for me, he knows intimately the best sounding mics on the planet(including Martina's 251!), and more importantly, he knows how to make our mics sound damn close to those mics... in this day, we are seriously lucky guys with the talent that is available to us! When I was hanging out with John he was telling me how incredibly badass Shannon is and how those mic's sound the way they do because of him. When I was telling him about what Shannon and I were doing with the capsule he was perky eared and told me to swing it by when we got it done. You're talking about a guy that has the biggest damn Mic collection in the country and he was definitely interested when I let him in on some of what we're going to do, that's damn sure saying something. |
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Post by ben on Oct 27, 2014 18:20:05 GMT -6
I want to build a mic just because I think I need to as a right of passage, but I have an artist I work with who was signed to Capitol back in the 90's and used a C12 extensively for his vocals. I have yet to put a mic in front of him that wows him like the old C12. That's my Holy Grail... to make this guy's jaw drop. Can I do it with a Chunger kit and a good cap? Maybe. My idea is to build the kit, then start swapping out components, caps, resistors, etc, to see if I can work in just the right magic.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2014 18:54:18 GMT -6
I want to build a mic just because I think I need to as a right of passage, but I have an artist I work with who was signed to Capitol back in the 90's and used a C12 extensively for his vocals. I have yet to put a mic in front of him that wows him like the old C12. That's my Holy Grail... to make this guy's jaw drop. Can I do it with a Chunger kit and a good cap? Maybe. My idea is to build the kit, then start swapping out components, caps, resistors, etc, to see if I can work in just the right magic. well, IMO, if you really want that sound for vox, get a TC capsule, and the cinemag tranny, see if you can get what your looking for right off the bat, you can also just subtly adjust the polar pattern toward omni and ease the sib edge(thanx cat5), if that doesn't work for you, send it to Shannon with a clip of your guys voice and discuss with him what you're needing from it/missing from it, when you get it back, it'll be the real deal. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 27, 2014 21:58:22 GMT -6
Let us know what capsule you end up with -- I emailed Tim C a month or so ago and didn't hear back, but I'm in no rush. I have the AMI tranny but I'm curious if the cinemag might be better for vocals (although I've had good luck with the AMI on non sibilant vocalists).
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Post by ben on Oct 28, 2014 9:49:46 GMT -6
well, IMO, if you really want that sound for vox, get a TC capsule, and the cinemag tranny, Which one? The CM 2480 or the CM 13114? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 28, 2014 11:15:00 GMT -6
well, IMO, if you really want that sound for vox, get a TC capsule, and the cinemag tranny, Which one? The CM 2480 or the CM 13114? the 131114 is C12 accurate ratio @ 12:1 like the ami t14, with a little more low extension, the 2480 is 10.5:1, i'd go with the more traditional style, + our friend Cat5 says the cinemag 131114 has a nice upper mid slight downward drift that suits vox well, and i trust he knows what is 8) |
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Post by watchtower on Oct 28, 2014 23:04:36 GMT -6
"A note from Fox Audio Research regarding the C12 transformer offerings from AMI and Cinemag:
The CM-13114 was wound by Cinemag at the request of Fox Audio Research to get a 12:1 transformer with the improved low end sound that Cinemag's laminations exhibit. Three different alloys are stacked in the core to create the improved low end. The Cinemag also has the signature 1dB down response at 20KHz using a plate follower 6072 tube that makes it sound warm.
The AMI T14 is a full 1dB down at 20Hz, but adds a small mid-range lift (.25dB) and is flat out to 20KHz which works great with capsules that are low end heavy like the CT12."
Take that for what it's worth. My C12 has plenty of bass. CT12, 5 star GE, AMI T14. I wish somebody made a later Haufe T14/1 that had built-in the bass roll-off.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 1, 2014 21:13:31 GMT -6
I'm using the Peluso T14-1, and it's good
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 7, 2014 10:02:14 GMT -6
Local techs in LA have used the Jensen DI transformer in these designs for decades now. It's a 12/1 ratio with excellent phase response, better than the competition.
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Post by aremos on Jan 31, 2015 16:32:32 GMT -6
Anyone with experience of using both CineMag & AMI transformers on a C12 mic with Campbell capsule in it that could describe the sonic difference?
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 1, 2015 3:03:00 GMT -6
Well, just as a note, after I save up a few hundred more I'm buying an automated coil winder from the UK to start turning my own. I've got the laminations pretty much nailed down but still need to compile specs. Not quite sure where to find those specs as of yet, but by the time I have the cash for the winder I hope to have everything in place to begin winding. I think it'll be pretty damn cool to be able to not only match circuit specs, then Shannon's brilliance on the capsules, but also to be able to turn our own trafos..... be killer. Not a shameless plug, but just a note for folks to keep in mind for the future.
Probably going to do guitar pickups, I/O Trannies for audio, Power and also get into inductors as well.
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Post by jimwilliams on Feb 1, 2015 11:24:23 GMT -6
I've known Andrew Lipinsky since he first came by my AES booth in 1994. He has a tonemeister degree from the Uni of Warsaw. He can hear stuff very well. Better than most of us can. I concur with his replacements of the C-12 transformers with Jensen DI transformers. He got the idea from me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 1, 2015 14:06:28 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 1, 2015 15:13:17 GMT -6
Some interesting perspective in this thread. Andrew Lapinski (Lapinski Audio) owns a dozen or so original C12's that he switched out the T14/1's with Jensens because he believes it is an improvement. Haufe's are good. AMI from time to time seem to have problems with quality control. Thanx TC, that's interesting considering AMI are the mo$t co$tly... Yes a model # on the jensen? thanx 8) |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 1, 2015 15:34:02 GMT -6
or either of the 10;1 ?
TC have you used the seven circle pres ? I would like something clean with dimension and euphonic and I have 2 hardy 990c here already so have been thinking about building one of the jenson seven circle pres ? Shane cautions me that it is a challenging build ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 1, 2015 15:51:21 GMT -6
or either of the 10;1 ? TC have you used the seven circle pres ? I would like something clean with dimension and euphonic and I have 2 hardy 990c here already so have been thinking about building one of the jenson seven circle pres ? Shane cautions me that it is a challenging build ? TC? are you referring to Tony Camp/or Tim Campbell lol? i built a bunch of A12's and NV72's, they were nice, i always grabbed for the A12's though, then i found the Capi stuff and sold the SCA rig(the capi stuff is in a league of its own IMO), the builds were very well doc'd, and pretty straight ahead. Honestly i'd stick with 500 series, there are so many well doc'd and pictured options for 500 it's silly! What about the hairball audio lola? it is a fully differential(fully balanced) pre amp that utilizes the 990 op amps, clean and fat from what i gather, i heard a sampling of it vs some stapled others, it sounded really, really good! They are on my build list, i envision them as a future go to for ribbon mics with all that clean quiet gain? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 1, 2015 15:56:52 GMT -6
Oh sorry Mr. TC sorry Tc only when I ask about caps good points, my bank book has been encouraging me not to build a 500 chassis |
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Post by aremos on Feb 1, 2015 16:24:36 GMT -6
So,Tim, out of the AMI, CineMag, Jenson, IO, you would recommend the IOAudio ...
& how much is it going for?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 1, 2015 17:03:35 GMT -6
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Post by ben on Feb 3, 2015 12:47:13 GMT -6
I like the AMI in my build. If anything, I'd go dirtier, not cleaner Though, the cinemag has a really nice low end. I've head the haufe has less lows, but then again, the C12 is not really known for its low end from what I've heard. |
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