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Post by sll on Oct 22, 2014 19:18:05 GMT -6
Mike contacted me yesterday about all this. I didn't know about it before. I told him I was ok with him using red and blue for his naming of the opamp styles. Whether it's a complete coincidence or not, it is very similar to what I've been using for at least six years now. The funny thing is my naming came from red and blue nail polish so I could tell them apart as I built them. The names stuck and have made them a recognizable brand of sorts
I can certainly see where people are going to confuse his products with mine now. I'm not going to worry about it much, unless people start thinking they are getting my opamps as kits or something.
Mike said he would put a note on his site stating that our products are not related in any way.
Hopefully that will help and we can move on.
Scott
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 23, 2014 11:06:10 GMT -6
Mike contacted me yesterday about all this. I didn't know about it before. I told him I was ok with him using red and blue for his naming of the opamp styles. Whether it's a complete coincidence or not, it is very similar to what I've been using for at least six years now. The funny thing is my naming came from red and blue nail polish so I could tell them apart as I built them. The names stuck and have made them a recognizable brand of sorts I can certainly see where people are going to confuse his products with mine now. I'm not going to worry about it much, unless people start thinking they are getting my opamps as kits or something. Mike said he would put a note on his site stating that our products are not related in any way. Hopefully that will help and we can move on. Scott Scott great to hear from you, thanks for being a class act! You can always look at it this way, You set a new industry standard! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 23, 2014 11:37:16 GMT -6
I think he's going to do that, at least thats what he he eluded to on the GDIY thread. Got a link? It could all be a misunderstanding, and Mike seems cool, at first i was like ugh ohh, i put my foot in it...again 8) but after more thought, i still don't like the apparent google piggybacking as i see it, Mike SHOULD change the names and build his own rep. But Scott said his piece, and i respect it(apparently i'm trying to get in his favor for? free op amps? i've already got more than i can use...hmmm, hey Scott, can i have one of your acoustic guitars buddy? 8) Those guys who posted on that thread are clearly protecting their bud, and thats fine, but right is right, make no mistake about it, Scott has made Red dots and Blue dots an audio geek household name when referring to 2520 op amps, it's a very common conversation between a couple gear heads to speak like this pertaining to api rigs... "what amps you got in their?".."lieber reds",..."cool, those sound great!",..."so do the blues" Scotts pieces made this redundant convo commonplace, and anyone who's saying otherwise is fos, and KNOWS it, and that includes the fella's convoluting the point here, or on GDIY. I could give a shit if anyone likes it or me, I call it like i see it 8) Could you imagine if Shannon, Beeznees or Tim campbell came out with M7 capsules and called them M7 Blue's or Red's lol, from a traditional GDIY respect standpoint, there is a clear line that has been crossed here, not on the level that Yannick did, but still crossed, i hope Mike does the right thing, he has not as of yet. Now i have heartburn, upset stomach, and diarrhea, uhhh ohhh, Audio Ebola?  |
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Post by sll on Oct 23, 2014 15:19:41 GMT -6
Thanks guys. I guess I did create a standard of some sort. I never thought they would become a household name. I feel very fortunate, but it was a lot of work. I dissected many opamps and did tons of tests and tweaking to get the formula I have now with modern components. I didn't start out basing mine off anyone else's previous clone efforts other than the originals.
I went and looked at the Whistle Rock site today. I do remember Mike's first opamp which is a 2520 clone. When Mike contacted me the other day, I wasn't really aware of the similarity of the Red25 to my red dots. The Red25 is his vintage version (the Huntington). While that's fine, I can't control what other people do. However, the vintage version of his 2520 is the red, and the clean version, while not a 2520 is the blue. They are just very similar, whether by accident or not.
I wish him the best, and hope there's room enough in the audio world for us both.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 23, 2014 18:04:54 GMT -6
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Post by porkyman on Oct 25, 2014 1:01:48 GMT -6
that explanation was so lame its actually bothering me now.... he coincidentally used surface mount instead of through hole like his other op-amps. he coincidentally made a vintage and a clean one. and the vintage one coincidentally came back red and the clean one blue. thats a lot of happy coincidences bundled into one little package.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 28, 2014 16:06:16 GMT -6
They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I believe that is the case here. It's like when your little brother or son wants to wear the same hat as you, it's flattering.
I don't believe these op amps are too much in competition, SL being sold built only, and the Whistle Rocks being DIY kits. I bet they are not exact clones, either, which would be an actual offense in my mind.
Disregarding the "controversy" I am extremely intrigued by these given the price and the speed of assembly. I just hate building 2520s.
With something like this, I could feasibly build something like an API summing mixer without wanting to commit suicide when it comes to op amp construction.
Yes, to someone like me, $17 vs $60 is pretty significant for my budget. I'll probably end up checking these out. I did like the ML2520 fairly well but the GAR2520 is still my favorite. I have not tried the Scott Liebers op amps.
Jeff Steiger is my hero too, the VP312 is my favorite preamp I've ever owned, at an amazing price point. I'd like to fill the whole lunchbox with them. The op amp is an important consideration, along with the transformer selection.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 28, 2014 16:15:12 GMT -6
They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I believe that is the case here. It's like when your little brother or son wants to wear the same hat as you, it's flattering.
and he steals $ from your wallet to go and buy one 8) |
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Post by winetree on Oct 28, 2014 20:35:50 GMT -6
Well regardless of what's been brewing, I have 3 reds and 3 blues coming in the mail. I'll build them and we can test them out.
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Post by porkyman on Nov 16, 2014 22:54:37 GMT -6
soooo... anyone tried the whistle rock red25 op amps in their capis? are they comparable to red dots?
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Post by category5 on Nov 17, 2014 9:22:21 GMT -6
I have built the standard version of the ML2520 and they sound very good. I do not think they sound as good as the GAR2520 though, and while I have yet to score a pair of red dots I think they are pretty highly regarded even over the GAR2520. The whistle rock is certainly a fine 2520 substitute but I will be very surprised if it is a red dot killer. Anyone want to send me some red dots to compare with?
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Post by mikefatom on Sept 20, 2015 15:53:44 GMT -6
Hi all, Mike here from Whistle Rock Audio. I know this is an old thread but I've only found it now!  I wanted to chime in and add my two cents. Firstly, I want to make it clear that I never intended to rip-off Scott's branding or ride his coattails. The truth is that this whole naming thing is a complete coincidence. Also note that I have never even heard, touched or seen any of Scott's op-amps to this day. If you are like me, you tend to associate sounds with colours. As it turns out, I associate the colour red with the API/2520 sound. I also associate the colour blue with "clean". Don't ask me why, I just do. This association of colours to sounds is what lead me to name the RED-25 and BLU-18 as such. After this whole thing blew up way out of proportion, I got in touch with Scott and told him that I would add a note to the product page to make it clear that these products are in no way associated with his. This was done immediately after our conversation. I have also been in touch with Tony who first brought this to my attention. His original email was colourful to say the least.  We exchanged a few words and have cleared things up. There is no bad feelings between us (at least not on my end). The goal with these SMT/TH hybrid designs was to make the easiest possible DOA kits to assemble. The RED-25 is based on the 9 transistor 2520 schematic that has been kicking around the net for years now. It is not a SMT version of the ML2520 nor a clone of another existing clone. I'm not pretending to have created something new. I've only lowered the barrier to entry for the beginner DIYer while maintaining sonics above all. I never compromise on sonics. The BLU-18 on the other hand, is a SMT/TH version of the Jensen 918 op-amp. Small value changes were made to allow it to run safely on up to +/-24V rails. Again, this is based on a schematic that has been floating around the net for ages. While I doubt that this post will appease everyone, I hope that it puts to rest this misunderstanding. If you have any questions, legitimate concerns (still) or simply want to talk about gear, don't hesitate to reply here or shoot me an email at: mike ( at ) whistlerockaudio.com Cheers, Mike P.S.: If you are in Toronto and want to grab a beer, I'm also down for that. |
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Post by sll on Sept 20, 2015 16:23:20 GMT -6
Since all this, there have been others trying to jump on the bandwagon. I see there's a "Red-Five-Twenty" There's also some guy in Belgium that claims he has cloned a red dot and calls it the "Belgium Red Dot"
I guess I should be flattered? It shouldn't be that hard to come up with an original name however.
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Post by mikefatom on Sept 20, 2015 16:32:43 GMT -6
Damn. The dude behind the belgium red dot is pretty bold!  |
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Post by sll on Sept 20, 2015 17:21:10 GMT -6
Indeed. He even cloned a VP28 and called it the same.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 20, 2015 18:12:27 GMT -6
Indeed. He even cloned a VP28 and called it the same. To quote an old Cient who worked on the Human Genome project at the UW "We only clone the ones we love"! |
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Post by Jason on Sept 20, 2015 21:24:40 GMT -6
i.e., Steven Slate...
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Post by yotonic on Sept 20, 2015 21:41:20 GMT -6
Trademarks. They cost $300 on USPTO.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2015 2:17:35 GMT -6
Trademarks. They cost $300 on USPTO. Yeah but enforcing them .... That's the money pit! |
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