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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 26, 2014 12:32:27 GMT -6
Here's my thoughts (and I'm guilty of this often). I'll track around a scratch vocal. Then by the time I'm ready to lay down the real vocal, the mix is sounding pretty tight. Here's the problem, the mix usually sounds right enough (or either I've grown attached to the way the mix sounds) so after I track the vocal, I'll try to match the vocal to the rest of the mix instead of notching out the mix to suit the vocal.
This might not be an issue for some kinds of music but the kind that I do is ALL about the vocal. I'm starting to think it makes sense after the good print is done to treat the vocal, pull everything down and build up from scratch around it. Make sense? It's a lot more work but maybe worth it.
I get lazy and try to squeeze the vocal in to fit the rest of the mix when it probably should be the other way around for my music.
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Post by mobeach on Sept 26, 2014 12:58:13 GMT -6
We usually rehearse and get the song down before recording, or we try to anyway  so everyone knows what to do when their turn comes up. Except the lead guitarist that never plays the same thing twice. If you're doing everything by yourself it makes it more difficult.. In that case I lay down the rhythm section first, then the vocals, at least that way you always have a solid foundation to work off of. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 13:10:17 GMT -6
I track the same way and as you allude to, go back and build the mix afresh from drums and vocal.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 26, 2014 13:11:15 GMT -6
Here's my thoughts (and I'm guilty of this often). I'll track around a scratch vocal. Then by the time I'm ready to lay down the real vocal, the mix is sounding pretty tight. Here's the problem, the mix usually sounds right enough (or either I've grown attached to the way the mix sounds) so after I track the vocal, I'll try to match the vocal to the rest of the mix instead of notching out the mix to suit the vocal. This might not be an issue for some kinds of music but the kind that I do is ALL about the vocal. I'm starting to think it makes sense after the good print is done to treat the vocal, pull everything down and build up from scratch around it. Make sense? It's a lot more work but maybe worth it. I get lazy and try to squeeze the vocal in to fit the rest of the mix when it probably should be the other way around for my music. this is a derivative of "my demo sounds better than my big production" syndrome, I would agree that if you can get the vocal nailed up front, it would lend itself to a better end. Unless of course your subsequent overdub tracking results can inspire and evoke a better vocal...? catch 22.... cool trick for lead vocal, on a duplitrack, filter off above and below at a cool set of frequencies that flatter a voice, compress that band, and use it as your parallel instead of the whole band, it works coolness, and clarity with less phase smear than a typical parallel comp, you guys probably all do this already lol |
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Post by Ward on Sept 26, 2014 13:27:49 GMT -6
Always build everything around the vocal. They are called songs because they are sung. Singing is the number one priority in any song, any mix thereof. Everything else is framing around the vocal. Arrangements built around a great vocal are easy to mix because they never get in the way nor walk over it.
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Post by mobeach on Sept 26, 2014 13:56:15 GMT -6
Always build everything around the vocal. They are called songs because they are sung. Singing is the number one priority in any song, any mix thereof. Everything else is framing around the vocal. Arrangements built around a great vocal are easy to mix because they never get in the way nor walk over it. Depends on the music, if it's progressive then the whole thing is arranged like an orchestration. Dream Theater for example will have 9 minutes of music and 3 minutes of vocals in a 12 minute song. Everything has an exact place it has to live. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 26, 2014 15:45:19 GMT -6
Tear the mix down and start over.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 26, 2014 16:59:57 GMT -6
Yeah this is one of the huge disadvantages to the one man dance in a studio. Takes way more time and effort to get it right
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2014 17:27:55 GMT -6
Always build everything around the vocal. They are called songs because they are sung. That my friends is a classic, very quotable post. Nicely done Ward. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 26, 2014 19:44:47 GMT -6
Always build everything around the vocal. They are called songs because they are sung. That my friends is a classic, very quotable post. Nicely done Ward. Agreed, I mean is this not the reason for the scratch/ guide vocal in the first place? Maybe one can argue the organic nature of those first few takes, but I find myself becoming more and more critical of the early tracks as time goes by. I think more and more the performer has become reliant on us to deliver the great performance. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 26, 2014 19:49:51 GMT -6
I actually always track without the vocal...don't know why...just start with drums, then acoustic, then rhythm electrics, then keys and the rest...then I'll add the vox in. Don't really do any mixing. Then track the vocal and add more electrics or pads or whatever.
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Post by ericn on Sept 26, 2014 20:21:54 GMT -6
I have never really had a SOP, for me it's what ever works with that artist, that track that day.
Some times everybody needs that guide, to well guide them, some times you get to that point where it's ok let's go back and recut everything but that last vocal.
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Post by Ward on Sept 26, 2014 20:27:32 GMT -6
I actually always track without the vocal...don't know why...just start with drums, then acoustic, then rhythm electrics, then keys and the rest...then I'll add the vox in. Don't really do any mixing. Then track the vocal and add more electrics or pads or whatever. Are you willing to let me show you a different way? Can we try something different next month? Just for experimentation's sake? |
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Post by lolo on Sept 26, 2014 20:31:32 GMT -6
I actually always track without the vocal...don't know why...just start with drums, then acoustic, then rhythm electrics, then keys and the rest...then I'll add the vox in. Don't really do any mixing. Then track the vocal and add more electrics or pads or whatever. Are you willing to let me show you a different way? Can we try something different next month? Just for experimentation's sake? I pretty much do it excactly the same as JK. Keen to try a different approach. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 26, 2014 20:39:39 GMT -6
Trying a new approach is good, just make sure it fits the project before you make a decision about how it works !
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Post by wiz on Sept 26, 2014 20:49:29 GMT -6
I just keep recutting everything, till it all fits.
I find, for me, if I am trying to make something fit, its usually unsuccessful.
I find there are generally a number of stages the song goes through.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 26, 2014 20:55:31 GMT -6
I just keep recutting everything, till it all fits. I find, for me, if I am trying to make something fit, its usually unsuccessful. I find there are generally a number of stages the song goes through. cheers Wiz and you do it well wiz! I on the other hand just keep recutting. thats it, nothing more to add 8) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 26, 2014 21:37:45 GMT -6
I actually always track without the vocal...don't know why...just start with drums, then acoustic, then rhythm electrics, then keys and the rest...then I'll add the vox in. Don't really do any mixing. Then track the vocal and add more electrics or pads or whatever. Are you willing to let me show you a different way? Can we try something different next month? Just for experimentation's sake? Well, I know how to do it different ways, this just seems to work the best for me...I always sing a scratch when I'm in the studio with other guys playing, it's just easier for me - and I find it works the best - when I do tracks at home this way. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 26, 2014 22:14:29 GMT -6
i've heard stuff from all you guys, and it's mostly very impressive imo. I have to say, that everytime i go do a hang with a new/old AE buddy, i always learn more than one thing. I've learned a ton from you guys here, but it takes longer on the forum than when you're in the midst of it, you just get bombarded with good stuff!
I'd love to sit in on a JK demo session, unit7, knobtwiddler, BobO, popman, cowboy, svart, ward, henge just to name a few, i bet it'd be enlightening as hell!
Also J Steiger, Sinsay, dandeurloo, matt, gouge... etc, ok... all ya's! lol
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Post by ericn on Sept 27, 2014 1:44:39 GMT -6
Are you willing to let me show you a different way? Can we try something different next month? Just for experimentation's sake? Well, I know how to do it different ways, this just seems to work the best for me...I always sing a scratch when I'm in the studio with other guys playing, it's just easier for me - and I find it works the best - when I do tracks at home this way. I can understand that as a songwriter, it works for you John, the vocal is going to set the mood and get the players going where you want them to go. Plus your in Nashville so time is $, I think your way is direct, other approaches are more organic, and shall we say more about writing where your trying to print. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 27, 2014 1:57:49 GMT -6
i've heard stuff from all you guys, and it's mostly very impressive imo. I have to say, that everytime i go do a hang with a new/old AE buddy, i always learn more than one thing. I've learned a ton from you guys here, but it takes longer on the forum than when you're in the midst of it, you just get bombarded with good stuff! I'd love to sit in on a JK demo session, unit7, knobtwiddler, BobO, popman, cowboy, svart, ward, henge just to name a few, i bet it'd be enlightening as hell! Also J Steiger, Sinsay, dandeurloo, matt, gouge... etc, ok... all ya's! lol Tone I agree I learn something everyday! The way I learned the most was by sitting there keeping my mouth shut , making mental notes of questions to ask as we were tearing down! I also have learned that if there is time, and I'm sure there is no chance of blowing something up, electrocuting somebody , staring a fire or other wise mameing people or Property the only way of knowing that something is not going to work is to give it a try! So what if it sound like shit ? I mean how many times has the musician sounded like shit? Besides its a great way to loosen everybody up if they know the guy behind the board can blow chunks to ! Best case scenario you look like a the Sheldon of recording! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 27, 2014 8:33:17 GMT -6
Well, I know how to do it different ways, this just seems to work the best for me...I always sing a scratch when I'm in the studio with other guys playing, it's just easier for me - and I find it works the best - when I do tracks at home this way. I can understand that as a songwriter, it works for you John, the vocal is going to set the mood and get the players going where you want them to go. Plus your in Nashville so time is $, I think your way is direct, other approaches are more organic, and shall we say more about writing where your trying to print. Actually, I meant to say that I don't sing the vocal till last when I build tracks at home...but the other way around when I'm in the studio. Of course, I know how the phrasing is going to be when I'm laying down tracks, so I don't really find it necessary to sing a scratch most of the time. The session guys don't, so the vocal helps them. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 27, 2014 11:18:56 GMT -6
i've heard stuff from all you guys, and it's mostly very impressive imo. I have to say, that everytime i go do a hang with a new/old AE buddy, i always learn more than one thing. I've learned a ton from you guys here, but it takes longer on the forum than when you're in the midst of it, you just get bombarded with good stuff! I'd love to sit in on a JK demo session, unit7, knobtwiddler, BobO, popman, cowboy, svart, ward, henge just to name a few, i bet it'd be enlightening as hell! Also J Steiger, Sinsay, dandeurloo, matt, gouge... etc, ok... all ya's! lol It would be cool as shit the next time AES rolls around to Nashville to have an RGO meeting at a studio and hang for a few hours. If we put it on the schedule early, plane fare should be rather cheap. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 27, 2014 11:45:31 GMT -6
I don't think AES comes to Nashville, right? Talking about NAMM?
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Post by drbill on Sept 27, 2014 14:15:47 GMT -6
At this point, AES doesn't do Nashville. It's LA in 2014, NYC in 2015, SF in 2016, NYC in 2017, LA in 2018, etc., etc., etc. There's a EU AES every year in (I believe) alternating cities.
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so everyone knows what to do when their turn comes up. Except the lead guitarist that never plays the same thing twice. If you're doing everything by yourself it makes it more difficult.. In that case I lay down the rhythm section first, then the vocals, at least that way you always have a solid foundation to work off of.
