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Post by popmann on Aug 28, 2014 18:33:09 GMT -6
I've been in writing mode...which puts me making demos and doing what maybe more people than not do regularly--cutting and pasting and screwing with tempo/timestretching, etc...fake drums...anyway...I've been trying to figure out why it's SO much fucking more fun to work on the Kronos than the computer(s)--I have both a Logic/MacBook connected TO the Kronos....and the main Cubase/Windows DAW 10 ft away.
So, why is it so much more fun and creative?
It's simple: limitations.
16x16 tracks. Couple decent drum kits. Deceptively deep drum beat library--which somehow, I can find good stuff in short time....where EZD/BFD have me poking around and around with "almost maybe that would work" beats. Want a piano? Hit record. No loading this one....comparing it to that other sample library--what if I EQ'd the first one to be more snappy? All channels have a basic three band EQ with fixed high and low freq. Couple aux busses for reverb or tape delay.
...and maybe most importantly...since I KNOW I can't have this and that audio polishing tools....and it's fake drums...the import (for collaboration) I think would be a pain (no timestamps)--I know this isn't release worthy recordings--it's JUST fun and creative. Who knows...maybe this IS what I release. It certainly hasn't been paying enough to NOT have fun. I got the optical adapter for this experiment...if I use the good input chain to cut into it?
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Post by svart on Aug 28, 2014 19:38:35 GMT -6
You don't need timestamps for importing. Just have the musician do a count in and do a consolidate on the tracks. Easy lineup ensues.
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Post by svart on Aug 29, 2014 7:10:27 GMT -6
You know, I thought about your statement a lot last night. I'm going to have a counter statement which I hope will be taken with some thought..
Honestly I don't think it's limitations you are describing at all. You are simply being creative without being distracted by the aspect of feeling like you need to produce a finished product while you are still working on it.
In studio slang, it's called.. (wait for it..) Writing music.
Which, unfortunately, is a lost art these days. With the creation of home studio gear, NOBODY seems to finish songs before attempting to record them perfectly. They are distracted by attempting to mix even before they finish the song. EVERYBODY thinks they are going to skip the step of HONING their song and doing arrangement changes. EVERYBODY thinks that their song is perfect on the first try.
Unfortunately I have to break the bad news to folks a lot of the time when I'm recording them.
I've gotten to the point where I'm no longer afraid to stop the session and send the artist home for practice/arrangement/writing issues anymore. For the most part, they appreciate it I've found.
At least that's what I see in the studio world these days. I may not have my finger on the pulse of the whole studio business but I do talk to tons of bands and artists and I'll swear that 99% of them have told me that they have "almost finished songs" where they "just need to write one more guitar lick" or something. When I ask them about mixing, the reply is almost always "It's already mixed, we just need that last guitar to fill it out some more" or something to that same regard.
Mixing is NOT part of writing music and it should never be considered as such.
They just want to skip proven steps and get to the end so they can be loved for their art. Or something.
Anyway, to add, I used to wear gear limitations like a badge of honor.. I thought that perspiration was the same as perseverance.
It's not. It's pretty much the opposite.
Now that I record a decent amount of folks, I see the same progression in them as I went through, and I see why "real" studios have very expensive gear for use. Studios have what they have because it removes all limitation and allows immediate freedom of expression, without the wasted time of "trying" a bunch of stuff or trying to make a Mackie sound like an SSL.
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Post by popmann on Aug 29, 2014 8:38:30 GMT -6
Except, it's the limitations the keep me from being distracted. Right? Pick a drum kit....A or B? Move on. You CAN impose these limitations in a DAW (I dare someone to take their EZD/SD/SSD/BFD folder and throw away all but two kits-while you're at it, if you own more than one of THOSE products, pick one and uninstall the others)....but, it's a different thing.
But, I also don't mean limitations in terms of audio gear SPEND(you mention trying to make a Mackie sound good)....that's a WHOLE different discussion...I just bought the little opticalSPDIF adapter so going forward, I can cut these demos through my nice input chain...
The gear part kinda misinterpreted my point(hopefully clarified)....but, the other part is what I've preached forever--that NOT segmenting the different processes....is not a few dominos ahead of everything that's wrong with music today. You write....you track...you mix. Do blend/blur those processes at your own peril, IME. As every DAW under the planet has been busy transforming itself into a music creation playground...I fear that very concept is being lost.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 8:45:36 GMT -6
Pretty true.
Limitations can bring you back to focus exactly on what you do.
That's what i like my Electribe EMX and Harrison Mixbus and even my old Roland MC500MKII MIDI sequencer for...
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 29, 2014 9:16:16 GMT -6
As a singer songwriter poet i love hate self recording I play write by ear and intuition and I find there is a curious shy opportunity in recording which is the song I think I am recording continues to blossom as I record it. IF i embrace only in effect my preconceived idea of the finished song i lose this opportunity to be open to and affected by evolution of the song. So, now when I invite buds ( excuse the pun) over to record, i play them the parts of the song and in the order structure I prefer then we have a beatlesque head arrangement chat and then record My working sessions look like an ADD nightmare 8-10 pairs of different guitar and vox parts different pres and mikes, then I pick what feels right ! Started new song the other day, set click recorded gtr part, turned on my yamaha edrums slate in daw, 1 stereo channel, no fx, no latency, had click for lead in , turned off bar 1, played drums in real time to my guitar part: keeper ? No friggin way  But i naturally played a compelling simple pattern i wouldn't have programmed on the keyboard Bassackwards for sure but the song is still alive and flowing So in conclusion seems i am stressing the importance of pre development before keeper track recording and finding a creative process that works for you Ps the drumming track influenced my sense of the song yesterday wrote a new chord lead pattern a complete keeper: funny how intuition works ! |
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Post by svart on Aug 29, 2014 11:16:21 GMT -6
Except, it's the limitations the keep me from being distracted. Right? Pick a drum kit....A or B? Move on. You CAN impose these limitations in a DAW (I dare someone to take their EZD/SD/SSD/BFD folder and throw away all but two kits-while you're at it, if you own more than one of THOSE products, pick one and uninstall the others)....but, it's a different thing. But, I also don't mean limitations in terms of audio gear SPEND(you mention trying to make a Mackie sound good)....that's a WHOLE different discussion...I just bought the little opticalSPDIF adapter so going forward, I can cut these demos through my nice input chain... The gear part kinda misinterpreted my point(hopefully clarified)....but, the other part is what I've preached forever--that NOT segmenting the different processes....is not a few dominos ahead of everything that's wrong with music today. You write....you track...you mix. Do blend/blur those processes at your own peril, IME. As every DAW under the planet has been busy transforming itself into a music creation playground...I fear that very concept is being lost. Ah, I see. I'm all for whatever works for musicians to do their craft. I've heard of some really strange muses over the years. Purposefully limiting your available resources allows you to focus, that's cool. Others might want more available resources. Some people just need a change of scenery or a knowledgeable sounding board for their ideas. On the other hand, as much as I despise when bands come in unprepared while using the excuse of being "in the moment" (or whatever else they want to say to excuse being lazy and not practicing and then taking 30 takes to get something recorded), I've found that sometimes hearing their arrangements come together through much better gear can spark true inspiration which may or may not lead to re-arranging songs and/or changing instruments/strings/styles/etc.. I can usually tell pretty quickly which one it will be, but the former is by far more prevalent than the latter. It's then up to me to get out of their way and capture it as truthfully as I can and help mold it into something greater. Maybe that's why I see it differently. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 29, 2014 12:01:09 GMT -6
i think it's all about perspective, for me personally, creative inspiration comes in waves, and I love to track while i'm creating, i throw everything i come up with at the wall to see what sticks, and in the end..which sometimes can take a looooong time, i end up paring it down to what's truly useful for a piece as i see fit. Yes this uses a lot of time, but i'm not in a race, and deadlines are for people with demands on their time, i save that hell for my construction biz.
What i'm saying is for me the ride is every bit as important, and sometimes more enjoyable than the end product!..such is life(which inevitably ends in death lol). This studio build i'm going through right now is an experience i'm enjoying the heck out of, sometimes it gets frustrating, but it's part of my ride, and i know when it's all finished up, it will be bittersweet, an accomplishment, a new beginning, and an end. I know someday when i bring a new face in here, and they say.. "cool!", i'll look back at this time proudly and say..."yeah, man that build was a good time". Same feeling goes with creating music to me.
look up "nostalgia" and you'll see my picture 8) i have always been this way, in 5th grade i'd look back to 4th, and say in a voice with no freqs below 300hz... "man..., those were the days" lol
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2014 12:44:48 GMT -6
Yeah - I try to keep the creative and production parts separate...write a song with an acoustic guitar and then record it. I can't stand writing with someone who sits around the computer looking for sounds before the song is written. But - that being said - I need some inspiration - and that's when you open the pandora's box of all this tweaking madness. Maybe that's why it's more fulfilling when I have this toy keyboard that makes THIS sound. (for example) This guitar amp that sounds like this. The endless options can be paralyzing. This is kind of the way music has gone generally though, right? It's more about production than songwriting now... Thanks, Beatles |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 29, 2014 12:50:39 GMT -6
Slightly off topic, but my favorite part about my live sound gig is that I'm forced to make quick decisions because of the limitations. I have to know what will work best and execute to have a good show. Probably half the gigs that I work, the band won't even do a sound check. They'll show up and get set up, I'll get my stuff in place based on knowing what normally works, I'll check all my lines, and be shooting from the hip at the start of the set. Even the bands that do a sound check only usually play a song or so and are good to go. They basically want to make sure that they can hear the monitors and feel good.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 1, 2014 8:23:47 GMT -6
early days yet for my new song "fair" but here is what I was talking about I ended up programming the drum pattern i wrote intuitively and then developing it a bit ( btw this uses UA's Ocean Way) on the drum bus and rerecording the guitar parts soundcloud.com/kcatthedog/fair-3_2enjoy ! |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 1, 2014 9:43:29 GMT -6
I'm convinced that a whole lot of why so many records from the '60s and '70s feel so great is how quickly they were recorded. We all hated the stress and welcomed new technology that made overdubbing and punching in easy. I even bought into project studios when 1/4 inch 4 track came out which was my biggest single career mistake. Today, my 20-20 hindsight tells me that something huge got lost.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 1, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -6
I read a quote where Sir George Martin said " if we'd used protools, pepper would never have gotten done !" : meaning too many choices:)
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Post by jimwilliams on Sept 1, 2014 10:20:39 GMT -6
"A man's got to know his limitations" ~ Dirty Harry
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 1, 2014 14:53:27 GMT -6
George Martin told me in 2001 that if they'd had Pro Tools, Sgt. Pepper's still wouldn't be finished!
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Post by swurveman on Sept 1, 2014 19:35:13 GMT -6
I'm beating a dead horse, but imo the phenomenon of musicians wearing so many hats has taken musicians in the technical realm when they should be thinking in the philosophical/creative realm. On "Tomorrow Never Knows" Lennon told Martin he wanted to sound like a hundred chanting Tibetan monks and Martin delivered using his knowledge of technology. There was a specialization of art and technical expertise and when the best of the best collaborated the result was amazing.
Musicians were reading much more back then and being influenced by ideas that were nontechnical. Today, they're reading much more-and earlier in their development- about which frequencies to cut or boost on the kick drum, or how to use parallel compression and on and on about the technical side of music production. It sells lots of software and computers, but it hasn't made the music better.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 1, 2014 19:43:54 GMT -6
"Back then," NOBODY was talking about gear. Everybody was talking about incredible new releases.
That change in the conversation speaks volumes in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 19:55:02 GMT -6
Haha, yes.
The musicians first question on phone in conversation with a studio:
"Do you have an SSL console, Neumann mics and Protools?"
Like this would make them recording a good album...
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Post by svart on Sept 1, 2014 20:18:38 GMT -6
Last cold call I got, a kid (couldn't have been more than 18-19) called me up and wanted to know about my gear.
Him: "U gotz goodest gear, dawg?"
Me: "Yes, I have pretty good gear"
Him: "Word, dawg. You gots dem beats?"
Me: "I have a drumset, but I do not have a drum machine, if that is what you are asking.."
Him: "yuh, bruh, I hears ya. I'mma call up my dawgs to come record dis record. Sh'dnt take mor'n 3 hours, bruh."
Me: "uh, 3 hours for a whole record? Is it a single? 3 hours isn't even enough for one song usually, unless the players have it down perfect."
Him: "nah dawg, deez doods be da best. Dey come up in dis and dey got it, bruh."
Me: "Uh, are you saying that the songs aren't even written yet?"
Him: " Ya dawg, we gonna get in da mood and take care of bid'nez."
Me: "Uh, well, I don't think this is going to work. You can't possibly get a few dudes who've not written the songs yet and expect to be done in 3 hours."
Him: "....."
Me: "So where did you come up with the 3 hours, anyway?"
Him: "Cuz I only got like 100$ to do dis sheeit, bruh."
Me: "You only have 100$ and you want to record a whole record in 3 hours?"
Him: "ya, bruh, I can do it. I gots this other dood who'll do it for 50$ but you got da mad gear yo."
Me: "Tell you what, I'll call you back..."
So there you have it. The youth of America think that some gear and 100$ of studio time is going to make someone a star. This is exactly what is wrong with the studio business. The home studio fad is murdering the profession with cut-rate pricing with every self-professed Pro-Fools jockey calling themselves an engineer (and not even using the term correctly either).
Some days I just want to give up.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 1, 2014 21:48:18 GMT -6
The ting about limitations is they make you use your head I have said this for years but the greatest thing about the DAW is that you never have to decide what to erase! The Corallary is the worst thing about the DAW is you never have to decide what to keep!
Limitations make you use your brain make choices and live with them!
Learning on antiquated crap made me compensate for the lack of gear by learning technique!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 1, 2014 21:48:53 GMT -6
The ting about limitations is they make you use your head I have said this for years but the greatest thing about the DAW is that you never have to decide what to erase! The Corallary is the worst thing about the DAW is you never have to decide what to keep!
Limitations make you use your brain make choices and live with them!
Learning on antiquated crap made me compensate for the lack of gear by learning technique!
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 17:54:11 GMT -6
George Martin told me in 2001 that if they'd had Pro Tools, Sgt. Pepper's still wouldn't be finished! I believe that right away I have many song ideas on the plate which have not been finished because of too many options. Since a few years I limit myself to what I love - most often traditional Git / Base / Drums may a Synth, or some other sounds. It makes a difference in writing. And I love to take friends with me to the studio - two creative heads are better than one. I say it again - the invention of the modern DAWs, with endless sounds, is not going together with more creative compositions. If I see modern film composers with templates with over 200 different virtual instruments I ask myself - do we lost our senses for good music with limited instrumentation. Composing with a DAW leads most often to a lonely experience that has nothing to do with making music with real humans. To be true - doing it alone makes me sick, and I am happy that I came over it after 6 years of doing it. And everyone who says that the plastic instruments do sound like real ones lost his sense for the sound of real players in a real room. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 6, 2014 19:43:32 GMT -6
When we first moved to Nashville I got to hear a real B3 for the first time in around ten years. I was absolutely floored by how much better it sounded than what I'd gotten use to hearing from samplers.
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Post by Koln on Sept 6, 2014 20:29:20 GMT -6
Bob : i've had a conversation with another engineer a few years ago. He asked me what was the secret behind making my B3 sampler sound so good at my place. I told him to just consider the sampler as the tone wheel than drive it into a real Leslie cabinet and mic it. I do the same, after arrangements, with just about any MIDI sample based instrument : cab it and mic it.
Limited or not i think it's part of the fun. We do forget that miking instruments can be fun. It helps us create something unique. But if musicians and real instruments are not available, guys, don't limit yourself and push real soundwaves into microphones.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 21:52:58 GMT -6
When we first moved to Nashville I got to hear a real B3 for the first time in around ten years. I was absolutely floored by how much better it sounded than what I'd gotten use to hearing from samplers. Bob it is not only with instrumentes. People praise at GS how good their reverb plugs sound, but they never touched a HW verb. I did it myself, but since the day I bought one very good HW verb I instantly bought a second one and thorwed Altiverb out of the window. Its simple: Industry tries to impress users by maximum possibilities. That the best records we can hear have been made with a very limited choice in tools, leads to the conclusion that limitation forces creativity in humans. Today we are totally overwhelmed with information. Digitalization goes hand in hand with a slutification of the socitiy. Who needs Facebook? Who needs to look, all the time, at a small little screen on your palm? With all those software instruments, when the new wow-factor is gone realty sets in. You can use them but choose well. The same is true for plug ins, and all the other BS (which I do not need in 90% of the cases) but they want to make me to buy it. For me the truth is that doing it all in the computer leads to music which sounds lifeless, thin and small. Just watch TV and you can hear it. At least in German TV productions we hear 95% plastic music. I am sick of it. And for most composers this was surly not the reason why they learned music. It was the fun playing a real instrument. Some people have to go back to their roots. I did it and use VSTI very seldom today. If everything comes down to a cost benefit calulation, and it does today, music culture will go downhill. And that is the reason why I decided not to sell my songs "compositions". It will stay as a hobby and with this I have the maximum freedom. |
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But i naturally played a compelling simple pattern i wouldn't have programmed on the keyboard
