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Post by alvavalis on Oct 23, 2024 19:14:01 GMT -6
Hi there, I have spent a some time on this board scrolling through various topics but have never signed up before. Seems like a nice community here. Well, well... This is a long one. I am looking to add some extra tools to my 2 bus chain, rather than just spicing up the signal path. I have a background in making electronic music (people used to call it ambient techno/experimental) and eventually evolved into the method of electroacoustic composition and sound design as I went through a 10 year process of putting together a Eurorack setup. I was lucky and privileged enough to actually earn money writing music for theatre shows.
I have not swapped or bought any synths for a while - in fact I have sold a lot of my classics because - guess what: less is more. But I have started to look at outboard gear as I plan to evolve my small studio for tracking electronic instruments and mixing music for myself, friends or other musicians. For now, mostly for my own enjoyment, but also to keep in touch with the music culture around me in Berlin, and in the long run not to be dependent on a director to produce shows. Eventually this may evolve into a kind of engineering role to support and enable artistic visions, as I am quite good with people and machines and sound. But for the sake of my ears I don’t want to work in clubs anymore. Personally I went through many iterations to find the "perfect" recording flow, but thanks to my work in the theatre – which requires quick decisions – I ended up just recording the stereo sum of my "performances" and improvisations, and then arranging them in the DAW (Ableton). Some of you may know that there are a lot of transients when synthesising drums or rhythmic elements, but also any other element can tend to have a lot of resonance. Or sometimes the mix is muddy, because the monitoring was not right. on location. I end up cleaning up a lot in the box by drawing the most vibrant lines of EQ notches, but in terms of overall loudness and transients it got better/smoother after tracking through my outboard. ITB compressors I barely use them during the process of recording if they are not shaping the sound in certain manner used in extreme settings. My chain at the moment: B1D preamp -> Thermionic Fat Bustard -> Thermionic Ultra Vulture -> B2 ADC I am thinking of continuing my journey into times of uncertainty with one of these: -Vari-Mu (Phoenix Mastering or Gyraf G22) for tracking and gluing things together. But there are already a few tubes in the chain. Maselec MLA-4 (when I can get my hands on one. I'm not in a hurry!) More as a creative tool, de-esser and multi-purpose tool for EQ and compression after editing, and its ability to monitor the different bands. I have not really got my head around Ableton's Multiband yet and just use the Fabfilter MB plugin. A Gyraf G21 Magneto Dynamic Infundibulum to cut transients and spikes during tracking that sound not so nice when clipped in the box, and to clean up the sometimes messy 2-track recording after the arrangement process. I'm super excited and curious about this unit. Outboard EQ? Gyraf G14? Somehow to smooth everything a little bit? I like the EQ section of my Fat Bustard already, though it is not very elaborated. But since my signal path is aready quite colored from the Thermionic stuff, I rather want to wait with getting an EQ. I also keep an eye out for some 550As to put in my lunchbox anyway. I am well aware that no one can give a definite answer, as these are all mixing (and mastering) tools that have their purpose and will be used in this matter anyway. But I ask from the perspective of a sound designer/electroacoustic musician who interprets the studio as an instrument. The DAW is great for analytical processing, but even recording with my preamp made my old 909 sounding really nice on my laptop speakers without any further processing. So I would like to add something more that is a good contrast to the mouse sports I tend to do.
Thank youuuu! |
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Post by copperx on Oct 23, 2024 19:59:38 GMT -6
That's quite the high-end kit you have there.
You need to clarify to yourself what you're looking for. Are you after novelty? You want to discover new sonic textures? Something that inspires?
If I understand you correctly, you're looking for an emotional adventure. It seems like you're looking for the missing link. Or maybe it's just the fear of missing out on some sonic texture. I don't see a technical need for a specific tool.
Am I reading this right?
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Post by griffinpb on Oct 23, 2024 23:16:37 GMT -6
That Gyraf stuff is imo some of the best around of any era. I'd go for their vari, opto, or passive clipper in a heartbeat for electronic tunes.
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Post by alvavalis on Oct 24, 2024 4:47:30 GMT -6
Yes, I don't necessarily looking for more tone at the moment. Novelty is a good word, but it is not really about feeling inspired. Buying new equipment is sometimes the exact opposite. For that money I could pay my rent for a couple of months, plus I have to figure out where to put it in the chain etc and rearrange my rack. It is more about curiosity and the learning process. In a way I am a slow learner by experience. Things sometimes take years to click. And that is something I really enjoy. Also, the process of trying out the tools on material other than my own, because I really like diving into other people's ideas and processes. (This is something I really enjoyed when I was able to attend mastering sessions at our old label). Still - from a technical perspective I tend to lean towards the G21. (In theory) I definitely want to bring down the overall peaks and create a more cohesive sound/waveform. But this is the DAW I use for atm, but still - there are some elements that pop out between the bass drums sometimes. However, I really like it when elements are a bit pokey and tease the listener, but for example I once got a master back and the element almost disappeared. (But that was 8 years ago). This is somehow I mean with creative ways of using those tools - making things sounding different but also being able to stay in the framework of the rules of acoustic perception.
As I understand it, the G21 can help to preserve the body of a sound, but can also take out some energy without causing harmonics.
I should simply order a demo if this is posible... |
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 24, 2024 8:10:28 GMT -6
If you're looking at a 550A, I'd invite you to take a look at the IAA V2 or the 500 series version V25.  |
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Post by lowlou on Oct 24, 2024 8:32:07 GMT -6
Welcome alvavalis ! Nice to see more electronic oriented member join the forum. Love you pic too. "A sound designer/electroacoustic musician who interprets the studio as an instrument", this is 666% me right there. Spacecraft On the Moon (lovin'it) STC-8 Cranesong (I am buying one right now, to be continued...) Goly Crosscomp (want two, no, three ! A 4 band version exists, too) Hendyamp Mega Nuclear Unicorn X 2 in parallel (crazy) I've not tested the STC-8, Goly, Hendyamp yet, but I find them fascinating. I've heard good things about Overstayer on the 2 buss ; the M-A-S and their fet, VCA. Neve MBT too... A bit vanilla, but vanilla is good. Purple mode is a very special kind of transformer hysteresis I think. Rupert Neve's soul floats around the unit when the purple mode is activated, I heard. He watches you... Gyraf, I'll get there too myself. Super curious to hear your feedback on the G21 if you end up buying it. Food for thoughts . Welcome again ! xxxxx Louis |
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Post by lowlou on Oct 24, 2024 8:33:00 GMT -6
Hey I'll just say that : if you want to transparently handle peaks in your program material, send a PM to Dan.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Oct 24, 2024 10:01:01 GMT -6
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Post by Dan on Oct 24, 2024 11:25:45 GMT -6
Given that you want to overcompress and have the compressor not sound awful, you should get compressors mostly that are built for dynamic special effects rather than as limited utility or flexible utility tools. Most compressors simply slow non-linear amplifier by an exponential envelope follower and try to not have an audible sound in proper use. Even the ones that are not logarithmic, the linear ones. Those tend to sound mostly sound awful when going nuts overcompressed and if they don’t from various program dependencies, they certainly aren’t solving your problems. This excludes most of what will be recommended to you here. I would recommend for dedicated dynamic effects: Eventide Omnipressor Valley People Dynamite FMR RNLA and PBC-6A Chandler Germanium Compressor Elysia Mpressor Empirical Labs Fatso Drawmer 1978
Goodhertz Vulf Sure you can tweak an 1176, Aphex, Distressor, SSL, Sonnox, TDR, Weiss, API VCA, Massenburg compressor or anything else with normal controls or even program dependency for cheesy dynamic effects with attack and tease and some of these have them as built in lofi options like “Nuke”, “linear”, “lo-fi”, “crush”, “warm” etc but you seem like you don’t want to go do that, set the sweet spots of recommended classics, or set the program dependencies and attack/release curves of compressors that can be used for smooth control and a dynamic effect at the same time. |
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Post by vvvooojjj on Oct 24, 2024 11:40:38 GMT -6
Didn't know there's 500-module also. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 24, 2024 12:00:12 GMT -6
If you want to fix the stereo tracks of your recorded, all over the place dynamically performances, most of the tools that exist to do that with controllable program dependencies aren't made anymore or they are ITB and you will have to learn how to use all of them. Others have auto modes but these are more limited and the pace of your music might be faster than their slower envelopes or you might need a speedup on transients. I would recommend for stereo use: TDR Kotelnikov GE is exactly what you want with a ton of control and program dependency Crane Song STC-8 can speed up on or clip transients choosing where you want to do it. Sonnox Oxford Dynamics and Oxford Limiter can do a lot and have a lot of control. TDR Molot GE can have a ton of control and effect and has a built in clipper limiter.
Softube Weiss DS1 has a ton of control, built in limiters, and is capable of various effects. The MDWDRC is good but buggy. Simpler options with less control: Pro Audio DSP DSM
Aphex Compellor. 661 is what I would recommend for mono using the easy rider but it's not stereo. Drawmer DL241 and DL251 auto buttons U-he Presswerk is great and lets you control the auto release and RMS integration. Some special Omnipressor effects are possible too. Drawmer 1978 has a lot of sounds but you cannot control the additional envelopes. Elysia Xpressor using autofast to hammer down the transients but again limited control. Dangerous Compressor sometimes works on Smart Dynamics but it is limited. PSP Impressor and Flare are great but again you cannot tweak the additional envelopes that much. All sorts of classic gear with a built in program dependencies that sometimes you must select, e.g. "auto"
There are multiband options too like the Leapwing DynOne and Tone Projects Unisum that give you a ton of control but you can easily make a processor more distorted than a distressor using them.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 24, 2024 13:16:41 GMT -6
looks interesting, have you used this yet? Seems like its biting off a lot in a single unit which sometimes doesn't work out |
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Post by Oneiro on Oct 24, 2024 14:37:35 GMT -6
To me, mixing electronic material is a balance between saturation and harmonic density and the preservation of transients/punch.
An Elysia Mpressor (not the 500 series) is a great, super versatile compressor capable of any role really and it has a number of features that are hard to find on other boxes. It will give you great envelope control but not too much of the harmonic stuff, which I guess you already have with the Thermionic gear.
I'd also look into a guy named David Anderson (he's on Instagram, now lives in NYC if I'm correct?) who builds a buss compressor - he's worked in a lot of serious studios, built a lot of high end things and is well aware of all the options out there. His comp is great and fairly priced for a two buss item that is overbuilt with quality top to bottom.
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Post by alvavalis on Oct 24, 2024 16:06:59 GMT -6
Thanks a lot for the elaborate feedback. Especially Dan's first and second post, as well as Oneiro's. I was eying with the Mperssor already and spotted it backstage in Emptysets live 500 rack at atonal in 2017, but the missing side chain capabilities on the 500 series is a bit of a bummer. (because I have some free slots) The big mpressor I was not so much into yet, since it is lacking tone. But maybe I should give it a chance. But you are right - it is about the amount of parameters. There are some good recommendations in here (expect the stuff advertised by Richie Hawtin – this is not what I am looking for  I will check out the the TDR Kotelnikov next week, when I will have to mix a lot of recodings for an updocming premier. The Sonnox stuff works great as well, waiting for a sale though... |
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Post by copperx on Oct 25, 2024 18:40:59 GMT -6
The Sonnox stuff works great as well, waiting for a sale though...
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Post by moeses on Oct 25, 2024 20:02:13 GMT -6
Silver Bullet
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Post by alvavalis on Oct 28, 2024 1:40:55 GMT -6
The Sonnox stuff works great as well, waiting for a sale though...
Oh, but unforntunately not the Super Esser!
Thanks for the replies - I am not looking for a channel strip.
I came from the idea of just getting something I can eventually use creatively now and eventually for professional mixing purposes, but Dan pointed out that the capabilities of those tools I had in mind might be quite limited that way:
"Sure you can tweak an 1176, Aphex, Distressor, SSL, Sonnox, TDR, Weiss, API VCA, Massenburg compressor or anything else with normal controls or even program dependency for cheesy dynamic effects with attack and tease and some of these have them as built in lofi options like “Nuke”, “linear”, “lo-fi”, “crush”, “warm” etc but you seem like you don’t want to go do that, set the sweet spots of recommended classics, or set the program dependencies and attack/release curves of compressors that can be used for smooth control and a dynamic effect at the same time."
Meet me down the rabit hole of dynamic effects...
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Post by Dan on Oct 28, 2024 7:52:07 GMT -6
Oh, but unforntunately not the Super Esser!
Thanks for the replies - I am not looking for a channel strip.
I came from the idea of just getting something I can eventually use creatively now and eventually for professional mixing purposes, but Dan pointed out that the capabilities of those tools I had in mind might be quite limited that way:
"Sure you can tweak an 1176, Aphex, Distressor, SSL, Sonnox, TDR, Weiss, API VCA, Massenburg compressor or anything else with normal controls or even program dependency for cheesy dynamic effects with attack and tease and some of these have them as built in lofi options like “Nuke”, “linear”, “lo-fi”, “crush”, “warm” etc but you seem like you don’t want to go do that, set the sweet spots of recommended classics, or set the program dependencies and attack/release curves of compressors that can be used for smooth control and a dynamic effect at the same time."
Meet me down the rabit hole of dynamic effects...
Why not just download something like MJUC or buy something like an RNC or what comes with your daw and play around with attack and release on the various modes? You have to learn to use every unit, where the sweet spots are on most units, how they work and effect the sound while doing what you want them to do. Otherwise you’re stuck buying one trick pony two knob compressors and wasting thousands of dollars. The more complex, program dependent units are capable of deeper gain reductions but you have to know how to set them by ear and what the controls are doing. On medium to slow attacks, you can use almost anything that has an exponential attack and release and these are dirt cheap. For fast attack on a something like 1176, and yes you do need fast attack on things like vocals, sharp drum hits, and stabs no matter how much some dude on gearslutz mentions slow attack, the meter is useless for the attack and initial portion of the built in two stage release but 20 vu off is probably way too much for the simple rc filters to follow in a feedback, voltage linear (not logarithmic like you hear!) design without it flatlining the material and pumping around. Compressors with only 1 rc filter in the release (or no rms smoothing) can take even less off. Fast attack and more control for deeper gain reductions (maybe the transients are not all at the top), you’ll need to use a more complex vca or digital compressor like Aphex, Weiss, Crane Song, Elysia, or Tokyo Dawn. Or even a digital limiter. Some of these almost resemble a clipper on brief transients like the faster potion of the 1176 attack, the complimiter limiter, Crane Song peak threshold without attack modification on, Elysia auto fast, Weiss limiters, the Molot GE limiter is a clipper with a release time, etc because they are so fast, they are greatly carving into the up down cycles of things not just low frequency content with Gibbs effect oscillations only slightly less than clipping. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 28, 2024 9:14:32 GMT -6
Hi there, I have spent a some time on this board scrolling through various topics but have never signed up before. Seems like a nice community here. Well, well... This is a long one. I am looking to add some extra tools to my 2 bus chain, rather than just spicing up the signal path. I have a background in making electronic music (people used to call it ambient techno/experimental) and eventually evolved into the method of electroacoustic composition and sound design as I went through a 10 year process of putting together a Eurorack setup. I was lucky and privileged enough to actually earn money writing music for theatre shows.
I have not swapped or bought any synths for a while - in fact I have sold a lot of my classics because - guess what: less is more. But I have started to look at outboard gear as I plan to evolve my small studio for tracking electronic instruments and mixing music for myself, friends or other musicians. For now, mostly for my own enjoyment, but also to keep in touch with the music culture around me in Berlin, and in the long run not to be dependent on a director to produce shows. Eventually this may evolve into a kind of engineering role to support and enable artistic visions, as I am quite good with people and machines and sound. But for the sake of my ears I don’t want to work in clubs anymore. Personally I went through many iterations to find the "perfect" recording flow, but thanks to my work in the theatre – which requires quick decisions – I ended up just recording the stereo sum of my "performances" and improvisations, and then arranging them in the DAW (Ableton). Some of you may know that there are a lot of transients when synthesising drums or rhythmic elements, but also any other element can tend to have a lot of resonance. Or sometimes the mix is muddy, because the monitoring was not right. on location. I end up cleaning up a lot in the box by drawing the most vibrant lines of EQ notches, but in terms of overall loudness and transients it got better/smoother after tracking through my outboard. ITB compressors I barely use them during the process of recording if they are not shaping the sound in certain manner used in extreme settings. My chain at the moment: B1D preamp -> Thermionic Fat Bustard -> Thermionic Ultra Vulture -> B2 ADC I am thinking of continuing my journey into times of uncertainty with one of these: -Vari-Mu (Phoenix Mastering or Gyraf G22) for tracking and gluing things together. But there are already a few tubes in the chain. Maselec MLA-4 (when I can get my hands on one. I'm not in a hurry!) More as a creative tool, de-esser and multi-purpose tool for EQ and compression after editing, and its ability to monitor the different bands. I have not really got my head around Ableton's Multiband yet and just use the Fabfilter MB plugin. A Gyraf G21 Magneto Dynamic Infundibulum to cut transients and spikes during tracking that sound not so nice when clipped in the box, and to clean up the sometimes messy 2-track recording after the arrangement process. I'm super excited and curious about this unit. Outboard EQ? Gyraf G14? Somehow to smooth everything a little bit? I like the EQ section of my Fat Bustard already, though it is not very elaborated. But since my signal path is aready quite colored from the Thermionic stuff, I rather want to wait with getting an EQ. I also keep an eye out for some 550As to put in my lunchbox anyway. I am well aware that no one can give a definite answer, as these are all mixing (and mastering) tools that have their purpose and will be used in this matter anyway. But I ask from the perspective of a sound designer/electroacoustic musician who interprets the studio as an instrument. The DAW is great for analytical processing, but even recording with my preamp made my old 909 sounding really nice on my laptop speakers without any further processing. So I would like to add something more that is a good contrast to the mouse sports I tend to do.
Thank youuuu! I have the Thermionic Phoenix Mastering Plus and Thermionic Swift EQ on my stereo bus and the results are really fabulous - BIG 3D and glossy .... sounds expensive But my stuff is more singer/songwriter - drums, bass, keyboards, guitars, vocals and some modern ear candy too so the stereo mix bus benefits from the analog magic these units impart, so I'm not sure how it would work out in other genres? As you already have Thermionic tubs in the path you're not short of adding size to a mix. The Phoenix is great for glueing together a mix and it's one of THE best tracking compressors I've used. I'm a huge fan of the Swift EQ - it's a big bold crayon and works a treat on the stereo mix bus and also individual elements. Good to see another Thermionic fan - I think they make some of the best tube processors going - it's a big part of my sound. |
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Post by poppaflavor on Oct 28, 2024 21:19:52 GMT -6
alvavalis I just posted an audio example of the G21 used (separately) on a guitar and drum track, then printed the two tracks into one. The dry and G21 tweaks are at the link below. For some reason the SoundCloud player doesn't work for me here on Real Gear on mobile. So you may have to catch to desktop mode to play it, or find it on my SoundCloud channel. realgearonline.com/post/383198/thread
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