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Post by niklas1073 on Oct 15, 2024 10:15:53 GMT -6
That sounds great. Then there might be hope still. This is just the impression i’ve got from local listings i’ve been following. Maybe reverb then still works. Could it be that the US prices are that much lower than the local prices here that people rather end up buying from there? If American made gear are originally bought new in Europe, they are already priced way higher than in the US. Just out of curiosity, how much does for example vintage U47s go for over there? I’ve seen a few coming across here lately and regardless of condition they’ve been over 20K euros up. I’d think though that all this varies in europe too, UK market probably different also due to the stock they have in great vintage gear. Vintage 47s are north of 20k. The only people buying those anymore are trust fund kids and rich lawyers who dabble in “pro” recording. gear for the real world is all I can afford, and so things work a bit different😂 Yep I agree, no one in their right mind with a limited wallet (which i assume all of us just wanting to make music are) would buy one 🤣 But im happy to hear you prove me wrong and real gear is still swapping owners regulary 👍
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Post by damoongo on Oct 15, 2024 10:25:06 GMT -6
That sounds great. Then there might be hope still. This is just the impression i’ve got from local listings i’ve been following. Maybe reverb then still works. Could it be that the US prices are that much lower than the local prices here that people rather end up buying from there? If American made gear are originally bought new in Europe, they are already priced way higher than in the US. Just out of curiosity, how much does for example vintage U47s go for over there? I’ve seen a few coming across here lately and regardless of condition they’ve been over 20K euros up. I’d think though that all this varies in europe too, UK market probably different also due to the stock they have in great vintage gear. Vintage 47s are north of 20k. The only people buying those anymore are trust fund kids and rich lawyers who dabble in “pro” recording. gear for the real world is all I can afford, and so things work a bit different😂 I bought one (two actually). Just an unbelievable sound. Got a steal on one because it was dropping out and was noisy. (After much detective work and consultation with experts, it ended up just being tarnished silver contacts on the tube socket, and cleaning the impedance selector strapping!) The U47's are a draw for the studio and have paid for themselves already, plus they keep appreciating in value. Instead of putting profits into stocks or something, I recommend investing in tools and learning to maintain them. (No trust funds or law degrees here... )
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 15, 2024 10:26:59 GMT -6
Anyone else here continually tempted to ditch their outboard due to regular upkeep? I feel like I am sending a piece out every 3 or 4 months, with repair costs sometimes approaching 1/3 of the unit's value on the used marketplace. Products from a particular legacy manufacturer on the U.S. east coast (that we all love) have been particularly brutal for me. Meanwhile, I had an artist recently cheekily suggest we "hang for lunch and maybe quickly cut an LV or two" as if a $22 lunch is fair compensation for recording through a $35K vocal chain. When I responded by asking them how many hours would they like to book so I could put it on the studio calendar, they said "oh, I have a C414, I'll try recording at home" (in my untreated room). Yea. That is frustrating. The world is full of artists who want a radio-ready sound from you that was recorded on an AT2020 in an untreated square room. Also, they have $50 dollars. It's a sad fact of a larger conversation about the state of the industry. With analog, yea, you are going to have down time on pieces and repairs. The truth is it has to make sense on paper unless you do it for the love of it and support yourself otherwise. I mix entirely ITB much of the time for clients and despite very high customer satisfaction, they just can't pay what I should be making, nor can I find enough clients to stay busy. I can't imagine keeping up a bunch of analog equipment in the same scenario.
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Post by stevenlmorgan on Oct 15, 2024 10:53:05 GMT -6
As an interesting note, I have gear that has delivered every day for at least 9 years with zero issues. These are my long-term hardware items so far: Everything Pueblo Audio (16 channels preamp, 8 channels 48v, 2 SideWinders, 1 custom attenuator), Bricasti M7, Lynx Aurora(n), Buzz SOC-M, Burl B32. I’ve had a pair of Miad 4040s a shorter amount of time but expect these will be extremely long-lived as there is close to zero heat produced.
On the opposite side of things, after only a month or so, my new Neve 5060 faders are “scratchy” and unusable, even after following instructions to try DeOxit, until I take it apart to try the potential fix Neve service suggested may help. To be clear, the unit overall is fine, including the rotary stereo faders and Master linear fader, as long as I don’t move the first 8 channel faders. My studio is pristine, no smoke, no drinks near the mixer, and I run an air quality meter that measures everything including temperature, humidity, CO2, chemicals, particulate matter… my air quality scores are typically 98 to 100, with CO2 rising a bit during tracking after 45 minutes of the ceiling mounted whisper vent being off and the door is closed with 3-4 people in the room.
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2024 10:56:15 GMT -6
Luckily, I rarely think about it as stuff rarely breaks. The last real "issue" for me was right after lightning exploded 50 feet "over" the studio. Even with 4+ layers of stellar costly "protection" that broke some stuff...... :-( Bill, do you have an opinion on what use preserves the gear better and the opposite? I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Care to ask again, and I'll try to answer better. Other than the obvious things - try to not get stuff too hot, no drinks on gear (I've broke this rule too many times), treat the gear with the care and respect it deserves, leave it powered down when not using, etc.. Other than that - I just use it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 15, 2024 11:22:14 GMT -6
WARNING: Mini rant, I have no clue what anyone is talking about here, I've had virtually no "Analog upkeep" issues other than the common to all of us mic and instrument cords that get tortured to disrepair, even my tube gear is not any sort of a maintenance problem. As everyone should, I have a lightning rod, a appropriately sized isolation transformer to decouple from service entry and surge, as well as isolated ground runs, rfi, emi filtering everywhere feasible to protect all my gear including and most importantly my ultra sensitive computers(aka not analog). The lightning that Bill mentioned would certainly have a more devastating effect on digital anything over any analog, i can replace op amps and caps for mere dollars and some time, a fried mac, controllers and converters are multiple $?k. Let me compare analog upkeep to the digital world. Analog=🤷🏻♂️ ime Virtual= Combative at you own risk OS and daw upgrades at the behest of your overlords, subscription and cross OS bugs and problems , retro incompatibility and whimsical discontinuation that render plugins valueless and void mix recall, no longer supported bricking of controllers that cost $$$'s, etc, etc, etc. All =ing a mind numbing amount of strife, loss of value and presto magico vanished off the face of the effing planet issues that i've had to endure (along with a homogenized sound) over the years with "virtual" everything..., While my analog gear just sit's there lovingly watching me, minding it's own business, waiting patiently for me to engage with it....., i'll stick with Analog thank you, the fact that i can touch it adds a little to its credibility and that of object permanence, ya know what i mean?
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Post by smashlord on Oct 15, 2024 11:24:05 GMT -6
That sounds great. Then there might be hope still. This is just the impression i’ve got from local listings i’ve been following. Maybe reverb then still works. Could it be that the US prices are that much lower than the local prices here that people rather end up buying from there? If American made gear are originally bought new in Europe, they are already priced way higher than in the US. Just out of curiosity, how much does for example vintage U47s go for over there? I’ve seen a few coming across here lately and regardless of condition they’ve been over 20K euros up. I’d think though that all this varies in europe too, UK market probably different also due to the stock they have in great vintage gear. Vintage 47s are north of 20k. The only people buying those anymore are trust fund kids and rich lawyers who dabble in “pro” recording. gear for the real world is all I can afford, and so things work a bit different😂 Can confirm. One of my friends is a tech exec that currently has an M269, M50, and original 1073s sitting in a closet that he bought as an investment. He is very generous with loaning some of the cool vintage stuff out, but your point stands where they are not bought as tools, but rather investment pieces, so the goal is to just inflate their value and sit on them. I have another friend, who makes extremely good money that collects vintage guitars and amps. He has overpaid for quite a few things and I asked him why he didn't haggle more... he just said "It's what I wanted and I could afford it." At the end of the day though, I've used vintage 47s extensively and while they are great, I wouldn't say they provide anywhere close to $20K of value when it comes to making a record. I used an M49 the other week on a vocal, cut through a 31102 and vintage 1176 and the result had me so excited I was looking at used RIs and Flea clones. We ended up having to recut the vocal at my place where I used a Pearlman 47, MA5 as well as some other modern equivalents to what was at the original studio and we all ended up actually preferring the new vocal sound. As far as I am concerned, the collectors can have their vintage gear. There are great tools available today.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 15, 2024 11:39:22 GMT -6
Vintage 47s are north of 20k. The only people buying those anymore are trust fund kids and rich lawyers who dabble in “pro” recording. gear for the real world is all I can afford, and so things work a bit different😂 Can confirm. One of my friends is a tech exec that currently has an M269, M50, and original 1073s sitting in a closet that he bought as an investment. He is very generous with loaning some of the cool vintage stuff out, but your point stands where they are not bought as tools, but rather investment pieces, so the goal is to just inflate their value and sit on them. I have another friend, who makes extremely good money that collects vintage guitars and amps. He has overpaid for quite a few things and I asked him why he didn't haggle more... he just said "It's what I wanted and I could afford it." At the end of the day though, I've used vintage 47s extensively and while they are great, I wouldn't say they provide anywhere close to $20K of value when it comes to making a record. I used an M49 the other week on a vocal, cut through a 31102 and vintage 1176 and the result had me so excited I was looking at used RIs and Flea clones. We ended up having to recut the vocal at my place where I used a Pearlman 47, MA5 as well as some other modern equivalents to what was at the original studio and we all ended up actually preferring the new vocal sound. As far as I am concerned, the collectors can have their vintage gear. There are great tools available today. 🤣
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2024 12:28:30 GMT -6
The lightning that Bill mentioned would certainly have a more devastating effect on digital anything over any analog, I would have thought that.... But lightning is a strange, and very devastating beast, and my digital stuff was fine. My computer didn't even go down, although the OS got scrambled and required a reboot. Most of my gear was "on" when it happened (mid-mix). The pieces that got fried were my Serpent splices, the original proto-proto SB, and a couple of other things. Mostly simple IC replacements, and good to go.
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 15, 2024 12:33:41 GMT -6
Vintage 47s are north of 20k. The only people buying those anymore are trust fund kids and rich lawyers who dabble in “pro” recording. gear for the real world is all I can afford, and so things work a bit different😂 I bought one (two actually). Just an unbelievable sound. Got a steal on one because it was dropping out and was noisy. (After much detective work and consultation with experts, it ended up just being tarnished silver contacts on the tube socket, and cleaning the impedance selector strapping!) The U47's are a draw for the studio and have paid for themselves already, plus they keep appreciating in value. Instead of putting profits into stocks or something, I recommend investing in tools and learning to maintain them. (No trust funds or law degrees here... ) I appreciate that there are exceptions, and I'm glad that your investment is drawing business to the studio. That's genuinely awesome. My studio has gone through a number of 'classic' vintage mics in our collection, and they have not attracted any new business from artists, whatsoever. Occasionally, a freelancer will book the studio based on a specific piece of gear, but my experience has been that artists come here because they like the sonics and the experience of working here, and don't really care much about the equipment used (with exception for our instrument collection, but that's a WHOOOOLE other discussion!). But I really am genuinely delighted to hear that your experience differs. That's just fucking awesome. I would push back, however, on the "just unbelievable sound" thing a bit. Having spent my formative years using all manner of classic vintage equipment, and even while still confessing to *wishing* I could have more of these wonderful tools for myself, I'd still concede that vintage gear doesn't *actually* sound unique or special to anywhere near the degree the hype (let alone the price point!!!!!!!) would have us believe. The $30k mics Tony just posted above don't sound 10x better than my Heiserman. I'd be surprised if they even sounded better at all. Most of the vintage 47s I've used have left me a bit underwhelmed, in large part because the one that lived at my studio for a number of years was a *particularly* great one and it heightened my expectations unrealistically. Or, maybe I just got used to the way one specific example sounded...who knows. My AEA R-44 regularly beats out vintage RCA 44s. In fact, it hasn't lost a shootout yet. I could go on. But I think I may be sorta losing the thread here and digressing too much, so I'll just leave it at this: vintage tools are awesome, but they are radically inflated in price to unrealistic heights. There's plenty of excellent equipment being made in 2024 and as I've been saying all along, the tools don't even really matter. It's much more about the results, and the experience the client has along the way. Ideally, you give them enough of what they want so they not only pay your day rate, but they also spring for lunch
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 15, 2024 12:35:28 GMT -6
The lightning that Bill mentioned would certainly have a more devastating effect on digital anything over any analog, I would have thought that.... But lightning is a strange, and very devastating beast, and my digital stuff was fine. My computer didn't even go down, although the OS got scrambled and required a reboot. Most of my gear was "on" when it happened (mid-mix). The pieces that got fried were my Serpent splices, the original photo-proto SB, and a couple of other things. Mostly simple IC replacements, and good to go. I had a flash of lightening right next my house many years ago and the whole studio shut down for a second then came back - except for the computer which needed restarting. The lightening acted as a “pinch” like in Oceans 11. I was lucky everything survived in tact.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 15, 2024 12:37:54 GMT -6
Careful with Lighting! What did “The Titanic” and the “Sixth Sense” have in common?.., “IC dead people”. Fun thread. But being at a Recording low level.., Quality analog isn’_that_practical. Well maybe one or two pieces. Eventually. Chris P.S. Will ketchup after work tonight.
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2024 12:50:08 GMT -6
I would have thought that.... But lightning is a strange, and very devastating beast, and my digital stuff was fine. My computer didn't even go down, although the OS got scrambled and required a reboot. Most of my gear was "on" when it happened (mid-mix). The pieces that got fried were my Serpent splices, the original photo-proto SB, and a couple of other things. Mostly simple IC replacements, and good to go. I had a flash of lightening right next my house many years ago and the whole studio shut down for a second then came back - except for the computer which needed restarting. The lightening acted as a “pinch” like in Oceans 11. I was lucky everything survived in tact. Yeah, I've got several trees on my property that have been struck by lightning. To have one go off "instantly" with a huge explosion is not too usual here. Happened a half dozen times since we've been here and they usually do not cause a problem other than a reboot needed. But the one above was the first one that went off and essentially "surrounded" the house. It was visually insane. I saw it hit - I was standing outside right in front of it. Crazy. Going "thru" the air into and around the house. Electricity is strange, and uncontrollable and doesn't always follow the rules.
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Post by theshea on Oct 15, 2024 13:27:17 GMT -6
its really annoying if gear needs to be repaired. tomorrow i will send my stam audio adg76 (rev a has really low volume) and my stam audio sa-609 to a tech. which means around 2 weeks without them. the sa-609 is brand new and came with - again - low volume in the left channel. its under warranty. the adg76 not, its about 5 years old … and i had my aml ez1073 repaired just last summer. but other gear just keeps working without problems for over 15 years now. so its hit and miss.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 15, 2024 14:30:21 GMT -6
I certainly started buying old tube gear and restoring it for myself during a late 90's period when everything I bought new was DOA or needed warranty repair within a year. None of it has failed since, it's always the newer stuff.
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Post by doubledog on Oct 15, 2024 14:36:43 GMT -6
I bought a Swiffer to keep my plugins dust-free.
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2024 15:45:12 GMT -6
I bought a Swiffer to keep my plugins dust-free. Nice!! I use a soft horse-hair 3" paint brush.
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Post by bowie on Oct 15, 2024 16:03:58 GMT -6
I guess it works the opposite for me. I've wasted more money on plug-ins that either became unsupported, that I didn't use, or that got up-sold to the improved version. I feel like I'm throwing money in a hole whenever I buy software whereas I typically get my money back with hardware. The only thing I ever sold for maintenance reasons was a tape echo. The vibe was something I've never heard software replicate but fixing it every year just became too much.
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Post by smashlord on Oct 15, 2024 17:28:24 GMT -6
I had a Space Echo that I, too, loved dearly and felt could not be replicated by software that eventually became more of a chorus box than anything because of never ending issues with the motor. Sold it.
On that note, though, Valhalla Delay is damn good. Its the first delay I have found (in its tape mode) that gets that dark, gritty modulated thing of a real tape echo.
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Post by poppaflavor on Oct 15, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -6
I bought a Swiffer to keep my plugins dust-free. Nice!! I use a soft horse-hair 3" paint brush. Exactly what I use. A long handled and short handled one to get to remote areas and into crevices. And a little tiny electronics vacuum as well that I use if don't want to scatter the dust which arises from the brushing (near vents). Repairs can be rough. This year I’ve had major servicing of two tube mics, have a 4 channel tube pre being repaired, got my 71 fender twin serviced, I’m about 75% done with a major refurbish of my rhodes, I have a few op amps I think are going bad, and I have three guitars that are in pieces and need to be put back together… Its expensive and time consuming and I’ve definitely been tempted to sell it all and just have a barebones ITB system…but then there’s the sound…so yeah…I’m stuck with hardware for a while. A friend had a Rhodes restored quite nicely and I engineered an EP that another friend used the Rhodes on. Pretty awesome. I'm sure you'll be super stoked. Wow that sounds fantastic. I just love that, so lush.
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 15, 2024 18:28:22 GMT -6
A friend had a Rhodes restored quite nicely and I engineered an EP that another friend used the Rhodes on. Pretty awesome. I'm sure you'll be super stoked. Wow that sounds fantastic. I just love that, so lush. Thanks!
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Post by damoongo on Oct 15, 2024 22:24:40 GMT -6
I bought one (two actually). Just an unbelievable sound. Got a steal on one because it was dropping out and was noisy. (After much detective work and consultation with experts, it ended up just being tarnished silver contacts on the tube socket, and cleaning the impedance selector strapping!) The U47's are a draw for the studio and have paid for themselves already, plus they keep appreciating in value. Instead of putting profits into stocks or something, I recommend investing in tools and learning to maintain them. (No trust funds or law degrees here... ) Most of the vintage 47s I've used have left me a bit underwhelmed, in large part because the one that lived at my studio for a number of years was a *particularly* great one and it heightened my expectations unrealistically. My AEA R-44 regularly beats out vintage RCA 44s. In fact, it hasn't lost a shootout yet. Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I appreciate you feeling stoked for me. Regarding the vintage mics you mention above: I think both of these come down to condition / maintenance. An all original U47 shouldn't be particularly great compared to another all original U47 specimen if they had the same capsule type (M7 / K47) and were properly maintained. Neumann had pretty tight tolerances and the differences would be small if both serviced and calibrated. Same with 44's. There's a ton of them out there with poorly tensioned ribbons or using the wrong ribbon material and they are dark and noisy. Wes from AEA has some original RCA ribbon elements for 44's and he sent me a couple for my pair. Properly tensioned, the noise floor is actually very low, and they see a lot of use here... (AEA and Heiserman both make great stuff too, it's true.) But lots of my clientele are kind of drawn to the classic equipment and approach etc. (Most things go to the mm1200 16 track 2" before eventually hitting the DAW...) So my situation is a bit niche, I suppose... As far as the OP goes, I think like several folks have mentioned, it depends WHAT analog gear your talking about. I try to avoid anything with chips in it, but can't always...
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 16, 2024 1:34:52 GMT -6
I guess it works the opposite for me. I've wasted more money on plug-ins that either became unsupported, that I didn't use, or that got up-sold to the improved version. I feel like I'm throwing money in a hole whenever I buy software whereas I typically get my money back with hardware. The only thing I ever sold for maintenance reasons was a tape echo. The vibe was something I've never heard software replicate but fixing it every year just became too much. +1 I did a spread sheet of software, samples, computers and DSP cards bought I’ve bought over the last 25 years. The $ number is so big I’m frankly too embarrassed to print it here. 10% of that investment is still in use. The hardware (mics, pre-amps, compressors, EQ’s, tube amps even converters) I’ve bought over the last 25 years comes to obviously a way bigger $ number but, 100% of that investment is still in use. I’ve finished my rig now, but if I do treat myself to something next year it will be hardware, I’m done with the software toilet!
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Post by doubledog on Oct 16, 2024 7:55:51 GMT -6
I did a similar sum of the plugins I bought - and that was only the UA plugins I own, and I also won't print that number. Yikes. I bought many of those before the plugin market crashed. Wouldn't cost nearly as much these days. But it was also the cost of doing business. Maybe a bit like buying toilet paper. Glad I had them when I did.
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Post by basspro on Oct 16, 2024 9:28:04 GMT -6
This past year has been my worst ever for having gear go down. Still wouldn't trade it though. The more analog stuff I have going on with my front end, the less I seem to need to do in a mix.
And as already mentioned in this thread, the price of upkeep is way better than the money spent on plug ins that will eventually become obsolete. When I know I won't be recording anymore, I should be able to recover quite a bit of my money spent with the sale of my gear.
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