Just some Sunset Sound Gear pr0n *EDIT - ADDED VIDEO/AUDIO*

I swear i saw the reflection of EVH in that studio 1 window.....🤘🏻

That looks like a pretty fun way to spend a Sunday.

That's gonna be great to hear and see!

Audio is up! Working on videos, but here's the sneak preview video we did of the V24/C24. Working on the V14/C12 video next and I'll do some videos where it swaps back and forth across longer sections.

You can grab the audio files and ProTools session here.

vanguardaudiolabs.com/sunsetshootout



Some notes from my own listening to the V24/C24:

• I think the biggest difference, easily, comes down to imaging. Take a listen to the soundstage shift. I've written a lot about why the C24 has a narrower image (power path crosstalk) and how we spent the time and effort to fix that in our version, but MAN ALIVE it's really noticable in a great room. The C24 sounds like the pan is 50L/50R, and the V24 sounds like it's 100L/100R. You can even hear it in the crappy Instagram reel compression like it's night-and-day. On piano the low notes shift perceptibly left, and on the jazz combo the sax moves from slightly left with the C24 to sounding like WHERE IT WAS IN THE ROOM with the V24. I think that's a huge deal when you're using a stereo mic and then adding close mics, just to avoid soundstage smearing when you start mixing in the close mics. For the record, they were both in XY cardioid at 90º.
• The second difference, much less noticeable with this C24, is the low end. I collapsed both piano files to mono, put a LPF to 150Hz at 24dB/octave with a phase-linear EQ, and then took a listen. The Sunset C24 is probably the best one I've heard out of the 6 I've tried. I have to assume it's been modified, because no C24 I've ever heard has that kind of LF response. The mk2 C24s had better LF response than the mk1s, but they still rolled it off pretty hard to avoid saturating that tiny T14/1 transformer. Even then, with the settings I used during listening, I could tell that the extreme lows (100Hz and below) were more defined with the V24.
• The difference between 251 mode and 12 mode is pretty significant when you compare the two. I separated the stereo files into dual mono, then did my best to match the pan of the V24 to the C24. In "12" mode, the V24 gets a more modern sound, and the C24 sounds rounder and warmer in comparison. In "251 mode", those differences become MUCH less pronounced - at first blush they're quite difficult to tell apart when you narrow the V24's image in 251 mode. That makes a lot of sense, since the C24 has more similarities to a 251 than to a C12 and I did some component value changes until i found the sweet spot for the "251 mode" sonics.
• The V44S holds its own. It's not in the video, you'll need to grab the audio files - but I'm rather pleased with how the V44S held up. Imaging is fantastic, but it's missing some of the detail, fidelity to the lows, and high-frequency shimmer of the V24. Ben's capsules are pretty magical (vacuum tubes don't hurt, either).
  

MIC LIST
Piano
AKG C24 mk2
Vanguard V24
Vanguard V44S gen2
All mics were in XY at 90º angles in cardioid.

Jazz Combo

Room Mics – 90º XY, Cardioid
AKG C24 mk2
Vanguard V24
Vanguard V44S gen2

Saxophone Mics – Cardioid
AKG C12
Vanguard V14
Vanguard V13

Drum Mics
Overhead – Vanguard V44S gen2, 90º XY, cardioid
Kick – Vanguard V4 gen2, -10dB pad, cardioid

Bass Mics
High – Vanguard V1 gen2 (Prototype), 22mm cardioid capsule
Low – Vanguard V13 gen2, cardioid

CREDITS
Engineer – Ben Burget
Second Engineer – Alex Miller
Drums – Adam Alesi
Saxophone – Michael Mull
Bass – David Tranchina
Piano – Ron Levy
Videographer – Tudor Williams, Way Out West Creatives

No disrespect taken. Both mics were placed as close as possible to each other in 90º XY, through the same preamps on the same console in Sunset Sound. The channels are panned hard left and hard right on both mics. You can use the ProTools session or the audio files to confirm this.

The reason is super-simple. Each circuit on the C24 has a common power path. AKG either didn't care, or didn't have the room inside the mic, to filter/decouple the power path from the audio paths. Because of this, there's significant crosstalk between the two channels - the top capsule will be heard in bottom output about 20dB lower, and vice versa.

If i COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED the lower capsule, you'd still hear the output of the top capsule in the bottom capsule's output. I actually have a C24 here for repair right now and was considering making a video showing exactly that.

For the V24, we fit in the components necessary (just barely - the board is PACKED) to prevent the V24's capsules from "talking" across the power path.

The result is that the stereo separation of the two channels is much, much more apparent on the V24.

Would love to know the crosstalk spec of a C24. What is the crosstalk of the V24? (@10k, @1k is for wimps 8)

I don't know if Derek has posted anything else from the other vintage C24 comparisons, I know he's sent me sessions from like 5 different vintage C24's he's tried at varying studios. If they're posted somewhere on soundcloud, go listen to some of the shootouts at other studios. This has been a consistent "thing" I've heard in all of the shootouts Vanguard has done with vintage C24's, the image always seems tiny compared to the V24. It's not just the Sunset Sound one.

I tried a V24 next to my V44s side by side on drums room, overheads, and piano. The stereo image was similar in both of them, they both sounded pretty wide and big. I think in this case, we're just hearing the inherent design "flaws" in the vintage C24's (which Derek has posted a LOT of information over the last year about the technical reasons). Not to take anything away from the V24, but in this case I think we're hearing some limitation in the vintage design as opposed to the V24 sounding "wider" than other stereo mics. I would be willing to bet you could put any modern stereo mic next to a vintage C24 and the imaging differences would be just as noticeable.

At the same time, you don't really have to look at this as a "flaw" in the C24 design. That image sounds really different and unique to me, regardless of it being chalked up to some things like "not so great" cross talk specs. A lot of these analog nonlinearities are what make those vintage units so unique and great. I could see myself picking the C24 image over the V24 for an acoustic guitar part in a song where I didn't want a mono mic down the middle, but don't want it sounding WAY too stereo and pushed to the sides. Having that nice C24 image tucking it in more could be really amazing, and I doubt it would be something you could get from any other mic.  

I've been doing a lot of back and forth with Derek on the V24 and (more so) V14 for over a year now and heard him talk about all the different shootouts he's done and feedback he's gotten from users and owners. The fact we're having this kind of conversation pretty much sums up why Derek took on this beast of a project. The C24 is one of the best mics every made, but it also has some major design "shortcomings". This is why these Vanguard mics are so cool to me, they're respecting the vintage foundation but elevating and modernizing the design in a respectful way. These shootouts were done right and done fairly, hopefully anyone listening is starting to understand and realize "why" Vanguard did this.

Mine's getting here Wednesday, I'll probably get that video review out in November.

Me as well! Great info here for sure :-)

Thanks very much vanguardaudiolabs and andersmv for the insight. That's fascinating about the shared power/audio circuits on the C24. I certainly didn't care for it here, but good point that on other sources it might be useful. I'll check out the audio files while the video is getting ready. And definitely looking forward to your review Matt! That should be a blast of a follow up to your development video.

Too much fun!

Nice! Nov would probably work. This overworked old guy has acres of use-it-or-lose-it vacay that has to be burned before years end.

I don't know if anyone else gets this, but on things like horns... There's a lot of times where I like the tone of a mic, but it's like the hair follicles in my ears tingle on louder parts and my eardrums "rumble" a bit. It's a really small thing, but I always try to pick a mic that doesn't do that   . My ears were doing that a lot less at the end when the sag voltage was turned down on the V14, ribbon mode undoubtedly sounded the best to me for the sax (but I've always had a preference for darker mics on sax. I never understood why so many people reached for 414's on close horn parts. That seemed like the "defacto" setup I saw in the early 2000's...).

My V14 is sitting at a UPS facility an hour away from here, they need to put it on the damn truck already.