mrcel0
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Posts: 64
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Post by mrcel0 on Oct 4, 2024 11:48:46 GMT -6
Currently in a box-like room 12x10x8' which is why I mainly avoided subs because the room is small - has limited space and limited treatment, I know subs aren't genre dependent but I work with bass heavy music and when I finish a mix, I sometimes go listen in the car and hear way more low end information that I just couldn't tell was there at my setup, at least I think that's whats going on - or the car might have an EQ turned on.
I have the Kali LP6s which go down to about 39hz, my question is, how important is it to hear this low end energy for mixing? Would this change how you mix since you can "feel" or hear the lower frequencies more? I also just don't want to cause more issues with the low end given my limited space and treatment, I wouldn't want to make 'worse' decisions due to my room/treatment not being ideal for a sub. I don't ever cut information down there because it would be blind i'd have no idea what I would be cutting.
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Post by bossanova on Oct 4, 2024 11:55:07 GMT -6
I use Tonal Balance Control religiously to check for and cut low end that's too low for my monitors and out of balance. It's not ideal but it definitely helps avoid surprises in that sub region compared to just doing it by ear and then hearing sub dominating everything on a larger system.
[However, I would prefer a better mixing environment overall where I could just hear everything and trust what I'm hearing, but until then...]
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 4, 2024 12:38:10 GMT -6
Get a sub that has a bypass switch/pedal like the KRK. That way you can do most of your mixing without it, but turn it on to check the low end.
A room of those dimensions is going to be very problematic regardless.
You should also use REW to make some measurements and see where your room modes and nulls are. That’ll at least give you a reference when you’re mixing of problem areas to look out for.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 4, 2024 14:24:19 GMT -6
A couple of weeks ago a friend who is a club DJ stopped by with some modern stuff to listen to on the Questeds ( down to 35hz without subs 18hz with). He couldn’t understand all the mud or sharply rolled off stuff below 50 on what he had brought insisted there was something wrong so we threw on some old school dance stuff, The Promise, Shattered dreams, O’ Yeah, Relax, Situation etc. Nice powerful clear lowend, then we threw the subs on his jaw was on the floor. All that stuff was tracked, mixed and mastered on systems with real LF, if you can’t hear it you can’t get it right. If you think your mastering guy is going to fix it, well yeah he is going to roll it off.
If you’re trying to sell your work do you really want some guy who has a full range system to be the first one who notices you can’t hear the LF?
Oh then we went all audiophile and put on Dafos, Kodo drummers, Sheffield Drum & Track records and Papa Do Run Run California project. Got to hear it to mix it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 4, 2024 15:03:24 GMT -6
Get a sub that has a bypass switch/pedal like the KRK. That way you can do most of your mixing without it, but turn it on to check the low end. A room of those dimensions is going to be very problematic regardless. You should also use REW to make some measurements and see where your room modes and nulls are. That’ll at least give you a reference when you’re mixing of problem areas to look out for. The thing is that works great if the low cut for the mains is on the sub & the switch bypass it, many don’t. Now this should be a standard feature on monitor controllers but nobody wants to spend the $ on bass management so unless you go custom your screwed. Someone should really make a moduler monitor controller! |
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 4, 2024 15:08:19 GMT -6
Get a sub that has a bypass switch/pedal like the KRK. That way you can do most of your mixing without it, but turn it on to check the low end. A room of those dimensions is going to be very problematic regardless. You should also use REW to make some measurements and see where your room modes and nulls are. That’ll at least give you a reference when you’re mixing of problem areas to look out for. The thing is that works great if the low cut for the mains is on the sub & the switch bypass it, many don’t. Now this should be a standard feature on monitor controllers but nobody wants to spend the $ on bass management so unless you go custom your screwed. Someone should really make a moduler monitor controller! Man, I’ve been so far down that rabbit hole…trying to find good bass management with a subs built in cross over, monitor controllers etc… It’s such a weak spot I can’t believe so few pieces reallly address it. |
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Post by smashlord on Oct 4, 2024 15:12:16 GMT -6
How well is your room treated?
Floor to ceiling traps in all the corners make a bigger difference than a sub in terms of being able to hear ultra lows.
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mrcel0
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Post by mrcel0 on Oct 4, 2024 15:23:31 GMT -6
How well is your room treated? Floor to ceiling traps in all the corners make a bigger difference than a sub in terms of being able to hear ultra lows. I would say it’s okay.. I definitely hear the improvement vs having no treatment, but I know I could do with more. I do not have traps from floor to ceiling, they are only half way, I suppose I should focus on more treatment + getting measurements before adding a sub to the equation. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 4, 2024 15:32:57 GMT -6
How well is your room treated? Floor to ceiling traps in all the corners make a bigger difference than a sub in terms of being able to hear ultra lows. If the monitors go low enough! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 4, 2024 16:02:24 GMT -6
Low spl subs in multiples are good in a small room, I’ve had up to 4 of them going at different phase setting to fill in the nulls for it to work, if you are crossedover low enough the out of phase thing is inconsequential, just make sure u set up a bypass switch for them
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 4, 2024 16:06:09 GMT -6
The thing is that works great if the low cut for the mains is on the sub & the switch bypass it, many don’t. Now this should be a standard feature on monitor controllers but nobody wants to spend the $ on bass management so unless you go custom your screwed. Someone should really make a moduler monitor controller! Man, I’ve been so far down that rabbit hole…trying to find good bass management with a subs built in cross over, monitor controllers etc… It’s such a weak spot I can’t believe so few pieces reallly address it. The problem is everyone needs something different, number of speakers, mono or stereo subs, crossover points, do I need to have separate x over points for different monitors with the subs. What about surround or ATMOS? Modular makes sense but it means more $. It seams that like summing mixers monitor controlllers are designed around the designers needs not ours. Over the years I have done some fairly complex systems using passive attenuators out born Crossovers and a patchbay but it gets a bit complex $ with say 3 sets of passive monitors and subs it gets to be a bit much. |
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Post by smashlord on Oct 4, 2024 18:48:36 GMT -6
How well is your room treated? Floor to ceiling traps in all the corners make a bigger difference than a sub in terms of being able to hear ultra lows. I would say it’s okay.. I definitely hear the improvement vs having no treatment, but I know I could do with more. I do not have traps from floor to ceiling, they are only half way, I suppose I should focus on more treatment + getting measurements before adding a sub to the equation. The carpet in the room helps dampen a little bit too ibb.co/7y9r5fDgiven how small the room is i’m still debating if I should take up the challenge of adding a sub.. (I move my traps to record in the corner which is why I have only one random ceiling cloud panel on one side, just trying to make the best out of limited space and budget.) I had my small room at home treated similar to yours years ago and thought it was pretty decent until I put triangular traps floor to ceiling and it was a revelation. I was hearing things in the lowend I never heard before. It really made a significant difference. I stopped yearning for a sub after that. |
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Post by theshea on Oct 5, 2024 0:11:24 GMT -6
room treatment first as always.
i woudn‘t use a sub but rather listen at lower volume (under 80db). your monitors should have enough lows.
for really checking the lows i would work with headphones, frequency analyzer and reference tracks.
i have a similar sized room and thats what i do. but i also checked different places in my room and i noticed that in the back, sitting at the couch i can clearly hear if i have too much bass. it sounds boomy there and reference tracks don‘t. thats when i know i have a problem „down there“.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 5, 2024 3:18:41 GMT -6
IME subs and small rooms do not a happy bed fellow make.
Just use appropriate monitors that are full range.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 5, 2024 9:55:32 GMT -6
I prefer Jersey Mike’s over Subway myself. Especially when there’s a Beef involved.  |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 5, 2024 9:59:16 GMT -6
IME subs and small rooms do not a happy bed fellow make. Just use appropriate monitors that are full range. In many ways I agree, except for one major modern factor, most full range speakers don’t give me the capacity to make adjustments to compensate for the small room. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 5, 2024 10:10:12 GMT -6
Low spl subs in multiples are good in a small room, I’ve had up to 4 of them going at different phase setting to fill in the nulls for it to work, if you are crossedover low enough the out of phase thing is inconsequential, just make sure u set up a bypass switch for them A bunch of of un matched subs is completely hit or miss unless you like comb filtering. Matching phase response is more important in the LF because of the longer wavelengths. The different frequency response might fill the nulls is completely hit or miss. You want articulate bass without smear? stereo subs with DSP will get you there cheap and easier. Plus the swarm theory completely ignores what your dealing with above the x over frequency with all those different drivers. |
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Post by robschnapf on Oct 5, 2024 22:34:57 GMT -6
Small room and a sub isn’t gonna be telling you any kinda truth.
You’re more than likely exciting some fake inaccurate lowend which you’re then correcting against.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 6, 2024 12:38:01 GMT -6
Small room and a sub isn’t gonna be telling you any kinda truth. You’re more than likely exciting some fake inaccurate lowend which you’re then correcting against. Rob I’m agreeing with you with an important qualification, unless you invest the and money to measure, adjust and tune. The subs need to also have enough DSP horsepower to do the job. I’m not saying in every room your going to get smooth useable response down to 18HZ but with the right monitors careful tuning of the crossover ( frequencies, filters type and slope ) With the Various SVS 3000 series I have yet to not be able to get 40HZ, useable 40HZ out of rooms that will not be confused with a closet. The crossover is the tricky part because most plate amps don’t have enough filter options or allow for asymmetrical filters. But an Old BSS Soundweb 9088Ii from the world of contracting is $100 used and has it! |
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Post by robschnapf on Oct 6, 2024 14:02:58 GMT -6
Yup
For me I never use a sub. I always hear the phase or the direction of it and it never feels real or musical.
I am very sensitive to phase and I’ve tried it every which way. It always seems like weird hype.
That’s just me but none the less, you don’t need one to make a great mix.
You need to know your room and have a great relationship with your speakers.
And if the room is real weird mix quiet.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 6, 2024 15:04:32 GMT -6
Low spl subs in multiples are good in a small room, I’ve had up to 4 of them going at different phase setting to fill in the nulls for it to work, if you are crossedover low enough the out of phase thing is inconsequential, just make sure u set up a bypass switch for them A bunch of of un matched subs is completely hit or miss unless you like comb filtering. Matching phase response is more important in the LF because of the longer wavelengths. The different frequency response might fill the nulls is completely hit or miss. You want articulate bass without smear? stereo subs with DSP will get you there cheap and easier. Plus the swarm theory completely ignores what your dealing with above the x over frequency with all those different drivers. Regarding the OP, I should say a sub is NOT important in any room, but it can be fun. A single sub in a small room is almost always problematic, "A bunch of unmatched subs" is INDEED a well known hit and miss undertaking while in the installation process, but you will CERTAINLY HIT at some point by moving them around the room. Matching multi-sub phase correlation is also NOT important (and potentially a detriment) as the cross over point at that low of a frequency has no bearing on mix decisions above it. Low sub bass is a mono centered flood of omni directional waves regardless of sub count, oop or positioning. Bass articulation frequency info is also way above the sub crossover point and has no real bearing on upper bass articulation, sub amps often have variable 0-180* phase rotation pots on them for that very reason. "Stereo subs" is a misnomer, sub freq's sum to mono, dual subs (or more) is a more appropriate term, "stereo subs" in phase will cause greater problems by making deeper nulls and hotter hot spots in a less than perfect small room. The use of 3 or 4 subs at various degrees of phase shift at lower spl's will fill in comb filtering voids and room nulls but can also increase amplitude of hot spots with constructive and destructive interference(again having little bearing on the phase of freq's above the crossover point), thats why experimentation is required to find the sweet spots. The concept is tried and true for small to even larger rooms to smooth sub freq responce giving you what you desire at and around the listening position that would otherwise require a perfect room of enormous size. That said i'd always have a bypass switch(even in a perfect room) to get the subs out of the way. This multi subwoofer small room array is a tried and true well known technique, I certainly didn't come up with it but i've used it dozens of times at this point because it works a treat |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 6, 2024 15:06:24 GMT -6
Yup For me I never use a sub. I always hear the phase or the direction of it and it never feels real or musical. I am very sensitive to phase and I’ve tried it every which way. It always seems like weird hype. That’s just me but none the less, you don’t need one to make a great mix. You need to know your room and have a great relationship with your speakers. And if the room is real weird mix quiet. WADR, a thousand times NO, sub bass is wholly omni directional, there is no directionality to it whatsoever if it's set up properly and at volume, you can't hear "the phase" either. You must have had it set up wrong, whisper quiet crossed over in the mids, or maybe you are hearing something else entirely? |
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Post by robschnapf on Oct 6, 2024 15:23:53 GMT -6
That’s what they say.
Sorry I hear it.
Wish I didn’t.
I’m not here to argue I’m just saying that’s my experience.
And im noweekend warrior.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 6, 2024 15:50:55 GMT -6
That’s what they say. Sorry I hear it. Wish I didn’t. I’m not here to argue I’m just saying that’s my experience. And im noweekend warrior. Sorry, didn't mean to come off as argumentative, I just meant to state that i believed you must be hearing something else that is a byproduct of a mistaken implementation. Directionality doesn't apply to subs unless they are whisper quiet or crossed over too high and un intentional phase issues only happen when 2 of the same signals are present and something is wrong with one of them or 1 of 2 speakers has one oop or in disrepair. I also understand single sub setups are usually a big challenge outside of a perfect acoustical environment, ime and the multi sub setup i'm talking about is a tried and true viable solution to a lot of those problems |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 6, 2024 15:54:01 GMT -6
A bunch of of un matched subs is completely hit or miss unless you like comb filtering. Matching phase response is more important in the LF because of the longer wavelengths. The different frequency response might fill the nulls is completely hit or miss. You want articulate bass without smear? stereo subs with DSP will get you there cheap and easier. Plus the swarm theory completely ignores what your dealing with above the x over frequency with all those different drivers. Regarding the OP, I should say a sub is NOT important in any room, but it can be fun. A single sub in a small room is almost always problematic, "A bunch of unmatched subs" is INDEED a well known hit and miss undertaking while in the installation process, but you will CERTAINLY HIT at some point by moving them around the room. Matching multi-sub phase correlation is also NOT important (and potentially a detriment) as the cross over point at that low of a frequency has no bearing on mix decisions above it. Low sub bass is a mono centered flood of omni directional waves regardless of sub count or positioning. Bass articulation frequency info is also way above the sub crossover point and has no real bearing on upper bass articulation, sub amps often have variable 0-180* phase rotation pots on them for that very reason. "Stereo subs" is a misnomer, sub freq's sum to mono, dual subs (or more) is a more appropriate term, "stereo subs" in phase will cause greater problems by making deeper nulls and hotter hot spots in a less than perfect small room. The use of 3 or 4 subs at various degrees of phase shift at lower spl's will fill in comb filtering voids and room nulls but can also increase amplitude of hot spots with constructive and destructive interference(again having little bearing on the phase of freq's above the crossover point), thats why experimentation is required to find the sweet spots. The concept is tried and true for small to even larger rooms to smooth sub freq responce giving you what you desire at and around the listening position that would otherwise require a perfect room of enormous size. That said i'd always have a bypass switch(even in a perfect room) to get the subs out of the way. This multi subwoofer small room array is a tried and true well known technique, I certainly didn't come up with it but i've used it dozens of times at this point because it works a treat The concept is not as excepted as you think, yes you have one expert who supports it but it is full of holes. First it might fill the nulls might, because when purchasing subs you don’t know the phase response of each driver, most manufacturers don’t publish this. Second at any particular wave length the drivers Will acoustically sum if placed within 1 wave length so multiple drivers are going sum as much as they are going to cancel each other unpredictably, basic and far far more excepted array theory, what every large scale arrayed live system either Quasi point source or Line array is based on. LF IS NOT MONO, ask anyone who believes this at what frequency or room function it becomes mono, you will never get a straight answer it’s Omni direction which many confuse with mono. Now here is a biggie Subs operate above the crossover point , so you have a bunch of unlike drivers producing different frequency phase responses and distortion at rolled off levels all over the room! Now if we except ATC’s premise at all that lower distortion in the upper bass is far more important this is very very bad we screwed. Tried it listening panel was mostly Symphonic Bassists, Tuba, and percussionist, and classical pianist as well as large pipe organ player in other words those who are very familiar with the natural sound of their respective instruments in the LF un amplified some brought recordings they were part of. All agreed there was more LF but no one preferred it to a well tuned well placed system with stereo subs, in both well treated and poorly treated rooms. The number one response was that the stereo sub based system was more articulate , it lacked smear and was more naturally dynamic. We also had multiple different measurement systems set up. All using not just calibrated mics but those with individual on axis calibration files for that exact mic samples. The only consultants driver or Speaker manufacturers I know who prefer the Swarm system is the papers author, I have asked many most just shake their heads. One other point except for Spl capabilities most preferred each sub being a single vs multiple driver subs due to the lack of even a small difference in phase, frequency or distortion causing even minor comb filtering due to driver manufacturering. We also compared this approach to the EM long developed ELF system, everyone noticed the companding at higher SPL. If I could ever reassemble this panel I would love to do a longer term test to see how power compression factors in. A couple of manufacturers were present all hoping Swarm would win because it would possibly mean more sales. |
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