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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 10:42:31 GMT -6
At the moment, in the summer, when I turn all the tube stuff on, it's like the surface of Mercury. I don't want to be all hyperbolic and claim it's as hot as the sun...I mean, come. But yeah...as hot as Mercury. Just a couple days ago I was tracking vocals and sweating my ass off - I look at my little guitar humidifier/Temp thing: 86 degrees.
So...my room is 20x13 with an A-frame ceiling. It has two vents on either side...they're connected to the central AC - and we've had multiple HVAC guys say they could direct more air in the room - but it ain't twerking. I'm wondering if a big problem is there's nothing to suck the hot air out of the room. Lots of times it doesn't even feel like the AC is blowing because I guess it's negative air pressure?
Anyway - I can't afford a $10-15,000 mini split. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I have some sort of grated vent on the door for air to get out? The room is still hotter even with the door open, but it's much better than when it's closed. Ii guess the question is - well...how the hell do I cool this room?
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Post by seawell on Oct 2, 2024 12:23:45 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,114
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Post by ericn on Oct 2, 2024 13:59:27 GMT -6
Not ideal but I would go shopping for a cheap, fairly quiet window unit and chill before using the room.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 2, 2024 16:43:49 GMT -6
Since when do mini splits cost 10-15k?
a 12,000btu unit would easily cool that. You can get a unit like that to DIY install for like $800-1500. Installed probably under 3k if you cant do the power yourself.
Seems like the way to go. They aren't silent but can be very quiet. So at the back of the room should be fine.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 2, 2024 17:44:17 GMT -6
Is there a return vent in the room?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Oct 2, 2024 18:56:21 GMT -6
You need to exhaust the hot air!
And a new mini split for that size room, should not be more that 3k to 5k at most, installed.
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Post by jmoose on Oct 2, 2024 19:05:05 GMT -6
So...my room is 20x13 with an A-frame ceiling. It has two vents on either side...they're connected to the central AC - and we've had multiple HVAC guys say they could direct more air in the room - but it ain't twerking. I'm wondering if a big problem is there's nothing to suck the hot air out of the room. Lots of times it doesn't even feel like the AC is blowing because I guess it's negative air pressure? 86 degrees is nutty. I can turn my spot into an icebox... 65 degrees no problem. Too many questions... yes is there a return vent from the A frame room? The door... is it a "studio door" with an 80-100% seal? There needs to be airflow throughout... fresh air from the system blowing in, and that old displaced air needs to go somewhere else... The system itself... starting here... how old is it? When was the last time it was serviced? (is the refrigerant at a proper level or need a charge, that stuff ain't cheap!) How many zones are there? Is it original to the house, as in - framed in - or was it retrofitted? (kinda determines options) Is the rest of the house staying cool??
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Post by doubledog on Oct 2, 2024 19:07:30 GMT -6
I had to replace my mini-split about 3 years ago (its 18K btu or 1.5 ton). yes, they can leak after time, and when they are already 10 years old, you can't always get parts so you get to replace it... anyway it was under $4K installed (Texas). I don't have any real "exhaust" and no returns since it is the mini-split, it mostly recirculates (except when the door is open). I can also freeze you out if that's what you want, and my room is 475 sq ft with 10 foot walls and a 15 ft vaulted ceiling -- in other words a bit more space to cool than yours. And I'm in Texas, but I do have thick walls (2x6 and brick exterior) and the room is pretty well sealed airtight. You might not even need a 12K btu/1ton to cool that room?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,114
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Post by ericn on Oct 2, 2024 19:07:42 GMT -6
You need to exhaust the hot air! And a new mini split for that size room, should not be more that 3k to 5k at most, installed. Yeah but the install cost & circuit would probably put it around 4K. Now especially right now window units are being cleared out, plus for a room that size he could easily use the same circuit if he powers the gear down while cooling the room & and shut down the A/C when using the studio. HD has a 6000 BTU 15 amp unit for $220. With an extra set of handy hands JK could install it himself with a cordless drill.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 20:45:33 GMT -6
Is there a return vent in the room? No
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 20:57:30 GMT -6
So...my room is 20x13 with an A-frame ceiling. It has two vents on either side...they're connected to the central AC - and we've had multiple HVAC guys say they could direct more air in the room - but it ain't twerking. I'm wondering if a big problem is there's nothing to suck the hot air out of the room. Lots of times it doesn't even feel like the AC is blowing because I guess it's negative air pressure? 86 degrees is nutty. I can turn my spot into an icebox... 65 degrees no problem. Too many questions... yes is there a return vent from the A frame room? The door... is it a "studio door" with an 80-100% seal? There needs to be airflow throughout... fresh air from the system blowing in, and that old displaced air needs to go somewhere else... The system itself... starting here... how old is it? When was the last time it was serviced? (is the refrigerant at a proper level or need a charge, that stuff ain't cheap!) How many zones are there? Is it original to the house, as in - framed in - or was it retrofitted? (kinda determines options) Is the rest of the house staying cool?? This is my house, so there’s no professional door. I thought I had attached pics…but I guess I didn’t. I’ll drop them here. It’s a room off of a playroom/den type area. There’s a return in that open air room, but no return in my room. It’s just a standard build home door. Carpet in the playroom and my room has LV. It’s a regular door, so there’s a gap at the bottom. But, yeah…there’s hot air has nowhere to go. Maybe I could install one of those fans like in bathrooms lol. Suck all the hot air out. The HVAC unit that services upstairs is a year old. Yes - rest of the house is fine. It’s just that that room - when I have the door shut, tube gear on, lamps, computer, etc…and it’s above 80 outside. It gets hot. I can open the door and it will cool for sure, but I need to shut the door for recording. I have definitely wondered if the bigger issue isn’t that it’s not getting cold air delivered, it’s that the hot air has nowhere to go. I’d imagine if I had a portable AC in there, I could crank it enough to take care of everything. I bought a portable standup one…but never got the gumption to try figuring out where to run a hose for condensation and cutting through the wall, etc…I probably just need to buy one that covers like 500sqft and hire a handy man that knows what they’re doing. i.postimg.cc/PxSKmS0k/IMG-2957.jpgi.postimg.cc/Kj4fQny3/IMG-2956.jpgAnd this because it looks sexy. i.postimg.cc/WzKnyh2W/IMG-2953.jpg
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 20:59:26 GMT -6
I just don’t think I’m willing to put that kind of money into it. Plus, the only place to put the actual unit - as my studio is at the front of the house on the second story - would be in the front of the house. And that ain’t happening.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 2, 2024 21:11:19 GMT -6
You can get pretty long lines made for them to run to the exchanger out side.
On top of that. Out of all the other options have have been suggested, a mini split will FAR and away be the MOST quiet option. Which IMO alone makes it worth it.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 2, 2024 21:17:26 GMT -6
I just don’t think I’m willing to put that kind of money into it. Plus, the only place to put the actual unit - as my studio is at the front of the house on the second story - would be in the front of the house. And that ain’t happening. How far away is the nearest return vent? If there is one in the next room over I’d investigate popping into that one and running a line to your room. Probably the cheapest option. Air can’t get in your room to cool it because there is no air leaving. Fix that issue and you might be golden.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 21:33:02 GMT -6
I just don’t think I’m willing to put that kind of money into it. Plus, the only place to put the actual unit - as my studio is at the front of the house on the second story - would be in the front of the house. And that ain’t happening. How far away is the nearest return vent? If there is one in the next room over I’d investigate popping into that one and running a line to your room. Probably the cheapest option. Air can’t get in your room to cool it because there is no air leaving. Fix that issue and you might be golden. See that’s what I’m thinking too. I’ve asked a couple of hvac techs about it when they were here servicing…even brought up “do I need a return” and they never say yes…just talk about directing more air in the room or mini splits…I’ll have to see if a return would even be possible.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2024 21:41:53 GMT -6
Oh - it’s in the next room. This room is off of a kind of open area playroom…the return is in that room.
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Post by seawell on Oct 2, 2024 23:20:26 GMT -6
Any windows in the room? If so, you could try a window exhaust fan. a.co/d/74ASHHq
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Post by svart on Oct 3, 2024 8:29:35 GMT -6
Man, when I had all my analog stuff running and a few artists sweating through takes in the studio, it would be 80F+ in the room in the dead of winter and I'd even turn the AC on in january.
Since going mostly ITB, I rarely have any issues with temps in the room.
But either way, YES, a return is NECESSARY. Not just a vent out of the room, but an actual return that can suck the hot air out.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 3, 2024 14:03:35 GMT -6
At the moment, in the summer, when I turn all the tube stuff on, it's like the surface of Mercury. I don't want to be all hyperbolic and claim it's as hot as the sun...I mean, come. But yeah...as hot as Mercury. Just a couple days ago I was tracking vocals and sweating my ass off - I look at my little guitar humidifier/Temp thing: 86 degrees. So...my room is 20x13 with an A-frame ceiling. It has two vents on either side...they're connected to the central AC - and we've had multiple HVAC guys say they could direct more air in the room - but it ain't twerking. I'm wondering if a big problem is there's nothing to suck the hot air out of the room. Lots of times it doesn't even feel like the AC is blowing because I guess it's negative air pressure? Anyway - I can't afford a $10-15,000 mini split. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I have some sort of grated vent on the door for air to get out? The room is still hotter even with the door open, but it's much better than when it's closed. Ii guess the question is - well...how the hell do I cool this room? An A/C with a small wall outlet unit in the studio and the compressor fan unit outside on the wall of the house costs about £3K in the UK. (I looked into one but we're only too hot here for about 8 weeks a year - so I didn't go forward with it. They are basically silent - the unit of the wall just chucks out the cold air the outside unit creates. $10-15K sounds way expensive for a small split A/C unit.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 3, 2024 15:06:13 GMT -6
We required fans and heat sinks for the tubes at Motown.
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Post by Omicron9 on Oct 4, 2024 9:17:01 GMT -6
Just a thought because I've done this and it works for me.
Have you considered putting the racks in the adjoining room and running lines/controls into your live room? IOW, get everything that creates heat out of your space. Turn the adjoining room into your machine room. Cheaper than a mini-split.
Again, just a thought. -09
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Post by jmoose on Oct 4, 2024 16:18:54 GMT -6
Ok I'm pretty sure I see what's going on and its a typical 'home studio' problem... there's a lotta stuff going on in a fairly small space, and with the dormers & A frame, despite the deep footprint that's a fairly small space and the stock AC just isn't keeping up. aka - not enough horsepower! Looks like the vents, at least one is like a 6x9..? Rectangular about midway down the left side wall by the lamps? And there's probably another directly across from it? And those are open? System is on and you feel a breeze of cold air..? They aren't closed or blocked or something kinda dumb? All that gear generates a lotta heat and yeah, recording studios are probably one of the few places on the planet that run freeze box AC in the middle of January in Alaska. Big honkin large format consoles, even some outboard racks might have AC vented in... Have to otherwise the SSL computer tower will cook itself to death. Main thing would be to increase airflow around the room itself. Get a fan... tower fan? Stick it in the corner and let it run. I really LOVE these honeywell turbo fans... can often find 'em in stores, depot, wally for under $20. www.honeywellstore.com/store/products/honeywell-turboforce-air-circulator-fan-ht-900.htmMy old shop had some poor circulation as well & these fans, on low speed are quiet enough that you can hide 'em in corners... behind racks, those chairs or whatever and you don't really hear them. Not over cranked guitar amps or rock & roll drums anyway and they'll help keep the air from getting stale. Popping a dedicated return into the room may not actually be the best move... or depending on how the house is framed, even really possible without $$$$ If the return, sucking air out isn't installed right it can be really noisy. Even done right it could be jet engine loud... that's the $$ part. The intake at my new shop, in the soundlock hallway is easily the loudest part of the entire AC system... the registers in either room make almost zero noise. The heat pump & duct work is on the backside of whats going to be the tracking room and it barely makes a rumble... easily ignored for all but the very most critical quiet stuff Truth is for 'general domestic use' that A frame studio space is probably fine with the return in the other, main room. The "problem" is as studio rats we'll stuff that room with all kinds of space heaters (tube gear) maybe a couple 3 other people and close the door for 6-12 hours a day, and so it gets really freakin' hot!! Essentially best move, if you absolutely have to work with the door closed all the time? Gotta turn that room into its own "zone" - and the easiest, cheapest method is what Eric said and toss a window AC unit in to chill the room out between takes & ear breaks. That and get fans to keep air moving / exhaust out the open door... whenever its open! Best move would be have someone carve a hole in the wall and install a split ductless. You'll probably have to pull down some of those panels to find a slot in the walls... re-arrange the layout... but it'd be worth it... Or - hey - why not move outta there and annex the bigger room outside..? Even some of it? Probably somewhere else in the house you can stuff an amp closet... Maybe what 'ya really need is a bigger workshop!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,114
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Post by ericn on Oct 4, 2024 19:55:00 GMT -6
Ok I'm pretty sure I see what's going on and its a typical 'home studio' problem... there's a lotta stuff going on in a fairly small space, and with the dormers & A frame, despite the deep footprint that's a fairly small space and the stock AC just isn't keeping up. aka - not enough horsepower! Looks like the vents, at least one is like a 6x9..? Rectangular about midway down the left side wall by the lamps? And there's probably another directly across from it? And those are open? System is on and you feel a breeze of cold air..? They aren't closed or blocked or something kinda dumb? All that gear generates a lotta heat and yeah, recording studios are probably one of the few places on the planet that run freeze box AC in the middle of January in Alaska. Big honkin large format consoles, even some outboard racks might have AC vented in... Have to otherwise the SSL computer tower will cook itself to death. Main thing would be to increase airflow around the room itself. Get a fan... tower fan? Stick it in the corner and let it run. I really LOVE these honeywell turbo fans... can often find 'em in stores, depot, wally for under $20. www.honeywellstore.com/store/products/honeywell-turboforce-air-circulator-fan-ht-900.htmMy old shop had some poor circulation as well & these fans, on low speed are quiet enough that you can hide 'em in corners... behind racks, those chairs or whatever and you don't really hear them. Not over cranked guitar amps or rock & roll drums anyway and they'll help keep the air from getting stale. Popping a dedicated return into the room may not actually be the best move... or depending on how the house is framed, even really possible without $$$$ If the return, sucking air out isn't installed right it can be really noisy. Even done right it could be jet engine loud... that's the $$ part. The intake at my new shop, in the soundlock hallway is easily the loudest part of the entire AC system... the registers in either room make almost zero noise. The heat pump & duct work is on the backside of whats going to be the tracking room and it barely makes a rumble... easily ignored for all but the very most critical quiet stuff Truth is for 'general domestic use' that A frame studio space is probably fine with the return in the other, main room. The "problem" is as studio rats we'll stuff that room with all kinds of space heaters (tube gear) maybe a couple 3 other people and close the door for 6-12 hours a day, and so it gets really freakin' hot!! Essentially best move, if you absolutely have to work with the door closed all the time? Gotta turn that room into its own "zone" - and the easiest, cheapest method is what Eric said and toss a window AC unit in to chill the room out between takes & ear breaks. That and get fans to keep air moving / exhaust out the open door... whenever its open! Best move would be have someone carve a hole in the wall and install a split ductless. You'll probably have to pull down some of those panels to find a slot in the walls... re-arrange the layout... but it'd be worth it... Or - hey - why not move outta there and annex the bigger room outside..? Even some of it? Probably somewhere else in the house you can stuff an amp closet... Maybe what 'ya really need is a bigger workshop! As there ever been someone who wouldn’t benefit from more studio space?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Oct 4, 2024 22:49:42 GMT -6
John, I had a small room set up a few years ago, approx. the size of yours, and I put one of these AC units in the window. www.lowes.com/pd/Midea-Midea-8-000-BTU-U-Shaped-Air-Conditioner/5000281553It was surprisingly quiet, because the compressor and noise making stuff stays on the outside, other side of the window. I see you have a window at the far end of the room, this would be a good spot as it's away from where you record vocals & guitars. I set it up in the far corner window, and was able to record Acoustic guitar, vocals, and drums while it was running. But if I needed to do something in total since, I just shut it off, and started it again when done. Never even noticed it, while editing or mixing. It was cheap and worked great for my purpose. Something to consider Actually it's still in storage in NY, otherwise I'd give it to ya! Don't need it here in the new joint in Hartsville.
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Post by teejay on Oct 10, 2024 10:16:19 GMT -6
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Post by hadaja on Oct 10, 2024 14:57:29 GMT -6
Nice to get opinions from fellow studio owners/usrs. My space is 9 x 4 metres so when I built this I knew a Whisper quiet Air con unit was a must. But everyones room is different. And yours is very different. So after posting your scenario you have a range of ideas now. I would get now talk to a professional and see what options they could provide with the insights you have now gained. And yes this will cost some $$$. So it depends on how much longer do you want to put up with heat versus paying some $$$ for something boring like air flow corrections.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,114
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Post by ericn on Oct 11, 2024 13:40:32 GMT -6
Ran into a friend who’s husband is an HVAC contractor and sent him your pics, warned against adding more vents. HVAC is about balance a common mistake by people who add a room on the cheap is they just run vents and returns and screw up the system for the rest of the house ( don’t want to see the wife kill you). If you do go this route at the very least put control able dampers on any vent or returns so you can shut the room down when not in use.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Oct 14, 2024 13:11:15 GMT -6
You may get some small gains adding circulation to your racks to help cool the heat makers down: www.rackfans.com/SP640X.htmlI have three pairs of these (exhaust/intake pairs) and they make about a 10-degree difference in the racks they're in. Not sure if that would translate to the room being cooler. The mini-split I had installed was about $5K but as it's been said, big box places have DIY ones that are like $1500. That was just something I didn't want to mess with myself. I put in a Mitsubishi and it's barely audible. The register boosters seawell posted look like an easy $59 try though.
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Post by stratboy on Oct 21, 2024 20:53:15 GMT -6
Hey, John I have a similar problem in my room. It gets a little warm in the summer, because my door is a pro door that seals around the edges so, nowhere for the cold air to go coming in from the vent. From your 1st post, we can see this is the problem because, as you said, the room is cooler with your door open. You have to provide a way for warm air to leave the room so that cool air can come in. To say it another way, closing your studio door is the functional equivalent of putting a piece of wood over each of your HVAC vents. I see three ways to create an air outlet in your room. Keep in mind that whatever opening you make, it only has to have the same area as the sum of the area of the two inlet vents. Any larger is unnecessary. 1. Cut a hole (or two smaller holes) in the door and cover it (them) with grates. Pros: you’re venting the air into the play room, which already has the HVAC return. It’s also cheap. Cons: more noise gets into and out of your room. 2. Cut a hole in the wall between two studs, cover with grates. Same idea, but depending on what’s in the play room, you can put a couch or chair in front of it to absorb some noise. Or even build a covered channel along the wall for a few feet lined with sound absorbing material that lets air out but dampens some of the sound along the way. Pros: It looks more built in. Better sound control. Cons: A little more cost, a little more skill, tools and materials required. 3. Open the window enough (equivalent area to inlet vents) to install a small window fan, that kind that has two small fans. Get the quietest rated one you can find, or DIY one from plywood and some quiet computer fans. Turn it off during takes if necessary. Pros: no cutting up your house. Inexpensive. You can remove it in the Fall. Cons: it will let in outside noise and put some studio noise out in your front yard.
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