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Post by doubledog on Sept 17, 2024 9:48:34 GMT -6
I've looked through some of the past threads here. Obviously the RNDHP, Little Labs Monotor, Avenson or Grace are great, but I'm not looking to spend $500+ right now.
So anybody find anything halfway decent in the < $200 range that is worth trying? (edit: I'm thinking more for mixing since I already have 8 outputs for tracking with the HPA-8...)
I looked at some of the Schiit and Fosi headphone amps, but I don't really need a DAC - I need analog since it will connect to an Orion 32+. I need at least one headphone jack, but multiple would be fine. I'd prefer TRS inputs, but could probably live with RCA (it won't go too far from the interface, but I'm always concerned about EMI and unbalanced cables when near the computer and other gear, so I'd have to try it). I also do have SPDIF or ADAT ports available on the Orion 32+. I've been using my Nady HPA-8 for the last 10 years and thought maybe I'd try something better than that or a Behringer, or if this does not exist in this price range I might just pick up a Behringer HA4000 because they are pretty cheap used and then I'll have more than enough headphone feeds.
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Post by ragan on Sept 17, 2024 10:31:10 GMT -6
I've said it many times, but the Behringer Powerplay I've got is awesome (HA4700). Tons of clean gain. Quiet. Low/hi shelving EQ per headphone out. Aux ins per channel. Thing has been great, for years. If I needed more channels or it broke, I'd buy another without hesitation.
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Post by niklas1073 on Sept 17, 2024 13:23:48 GMT -6
I have a HA6000 at the moment for tracking purpose. It has a lot of gain and is perfect for just that, bang for the buck. It’s probably my second or third HA going. BUT I cannot mix with it. It’s not a great ha amp sound wise. I am doing fine with uad Apollo's ha amp for mixing and reference purpose, so I am not super picky about it.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2024 14:15:21 GMT -6
The performance of any head phone amp especially one used to power multiple pairs at once has as much to do with the impendance of the headphones used and the output impendance of the amp. That said on the cheap always head good luck with used Symetrix 1/2 rack units.
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Post by moondog on Sept 17, 2024 15:14:44 GMT -6
The performance of any head phone amp especially one used to power multiple pairs at once has as much to do with the impendance of the headphones used and the output impendance of the amp. That said on the cheap always head good luck with used Symetrix 1/2 rack units. I never quite got the impedance thing with headphones...so you say the impedance of headphone and output are important...but how to know if they match?? For example my Lakepeople G103 sounds great with my DT770s and my Focals and so on...they all have different impedance. The output of the G103 has 0,1ohms. Headphones have 32ohms, 80ohms, 250 ohms... what does it all mean? to OP: I recommend the Lake People GS103 amp. used units go for around 100 bucks (Europe).
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Post by drumsound on Sept 17, 2024 16:15:57 GMT -6
I've been running my Rane HC-6 forever. I just send one mix out to the players, but there are inputs on the back that I might be able to make multiple mixes with... It's got plenty of power for loud dates.
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Post by doubledog on Sept 17, 2024 16:50:11 GMT -6
I edited my original post, but yeah, I'm really thinking of something I could use for mixing - although I don't really mix that often in headphones (sometimes with VSX). My HPA-8 can do 3 separate mixes, but my interface is setup for 4... so another channel or two would allow me to provide 4 separate mixes (but even then I sometimes just give everyone the same mix and if someone doesn't like their mix I swap their headphones). Or maybe I'll just talk myself out of it altogether.
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 17, 2024 18:55:30 GMT -6
I never quite got the impedance thing with headphones...so you say the impedance of headphone and output are important...but how to know if they match?? For example my Lakepeople G103 sounds great with my DT770s and my Focals and so on...they all have different impedance. The output of the G103 has 0,1ohms. Headphones have 32ohms, 80ohms, 250 ohms... what does it all mean? A good headphone amp doesn’t really need to “match” the headphones from an impedance standpoint, it needs to be able to have enough headroom (high enough supply voltage and available output swing) for high impedance headphones and enough drive strength (current drive capability) for lower impedance headphones while retaining high linearity and low noise floor throughout. Something truly professional can do either and equally well enough but this will typically be a higher cost design. My favorite headphone amp is probably the one in the Dangerous Monitor ST, it’s basically so overpowered it “breathes” (and you have to be careful, it’s capable of extremely large output levels). I also have the RND unit; it’s similarly overpowered but I think it’s a bit more colored. This actually requires a desired “mismatch”, ideally the headphone amp’s output impedance would be exceedingly low compared to even “low impedance” headphones (making it act essentially like “an ideal voltage source”, at least to the highest degree possible). 0.1 Ohms of Zout (output impedance) of G103 mentioned above is quite low, almost certainly “low enough” for any practical range of headphone load impedances. But a simple and budget friendly opamp chip might also have that level of output impedance but completely crap out (slew rate limitations, current limit, low output swing with clipping, other sources of distortion) for even moderate headphone levels. My point: it’s completely possible to have a terrible design or a really nice design having a low small-signal Zout. It’s tough to have really great headphone amps with the lower supply voltages typical of budget interfaces but they’re usually fine for headphones of moderate impedance.
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 17, 2024 19:08:41 GMT -6
For the fun of it I did a quick search for the schematic of the Behringer HA4700 Power Play mentioned above, found what appears to be it here: www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgkmc7hcgebj81.png%3Fwidth%3D1035%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6e06080f04e3b3bf90c0f98f1ccb16f44ef600a6Another version here: www.scribd.com/document/519656541/Behringer-HA-4700-Schematics-2It has +\- 17V supply voltages (much more than a 5V super budget USB based design), uses budget friendly opamp chips but (seemingly) gets good results by placing several of them in parallel to drive the headphone load, sort of by “sharing “ the load current amongst them, so no single device feels it fully. There are 10 ohm resistors at the output of each opamp involved that help ensure the balance of the sharing (“ballast resistors”). The opamps driving the load are embedded in a feedback loop with an extra opamp providing “global feedback” to help ensure good linearity. The chip opamp used seems to be a variation of the JCM4580, maybe this one from Texas Instruments available for about 15 cents each in large quantities: www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/rc4580.pdfNot a bad idea overall, a solid practical approach, but I think the pricier units take a different approach (mix of opamp chips and discrete transistors/other components). The manual seems to specify operation for headphones ranging from 8 Ohms to 100 Ohms, though I suspect it will at least be functional for higher impedance headphones, just not optimal (might have trouble with swing and getting loud enough output that still sounds decent)
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Post by FM77 on Sept 17, 2024 19:37:16 GMT -6
Once you have a great HPA, there is no going back. Depth, imaging, clarity, it transforms phones.
And has 'make offer' available. I would offer $325 and see what comes back.
I use the HPA in the GRACE m905 most of the time because that's where my primary is routed. Its basic good quality, but the RME ADI-2 DAC FS actually changes the listening experience. I am a convert in the HPA conversation now. Its no small thing.
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Post by moeses on Sept 17, 2024 19:47:04 GMT -6
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Sept 17, 2024 20:21:20 GMT -6
I've looked through some of the past threads here. Obviously the RNDHP, Little Labs Monotor, Avenson or Grace are great, but I'm not looking to spend $500+ right now. So anybody find anything halfway decent in the < $200 range..: Hello! I am an engineer of several fields; nuclear, electronic, audio, music, etc… That field is all about setting parameters to solve a problem. You have set two criteria: affordable - doesn’t suck. You give a definitive, material value for price: <$500. But “doesn’t suck” is in the wind. If I may have leeway to fill in the blank; “doesn’t suck” to me means “leads to success”. Every music engineering decision we make is lead by what our monitoring systems inform us with. IT IS THE VITAL GUIDING LIGHT. I would not have had my career (nor any of my outrageously successful associates) with under $200 anything dealing with monitoring (or other gear adjacent to transducers) Appreciate the value, and invest in, tools that gather return
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2024 21:17:57 GMT -6
I never quite got the impedance thing with headphones...so you say the impedance of headphone and output are important...but how to know if they match?? For example my Lakepeople G103 sounds great with my DT770s and my Focals and so on...they all have different impedance. The output of the G103 has 0,1ohms. Headphones have 32ohms, 80ohms, 250 ohms... what does it all mean? A good headphone amp doesn’t really need to “match” the headphones from an impedance standpoint, it needs to be able to have enough headroom (high enough supply voltage and available output swing) for high impedance headphones and enough drive strength (current drive capability) for lower impedance headphones while retaining high linearity and low noise floor throughout. Something truly professional can do either and equally well enough but this will typically be a higher cost design. My favorite headphone amp is probably the one in the Dangerous Monitor ST, it’s basically so overpowered it “breathes” (and you have to be careful, it’s capable of extremely large output levels). I also have the RND unit; it’s similarly overpowered but I think it’s a bit more colored. This actually requires a desired “mismatch”, ideally the headphone amp’s output impedance would be exceedingly low compared to even “low impedance” headphones (making it act essentially like “an ideal voltage source”, at least to the highest degree possible). 0.1 Ohms of Zout (output impedance) of G103 mentioned above is quite low, almost certainly “low enough” for any practical range of headphone load impedances. But a simple and budget friendly opamp chip might also have that level of output impedance but completely crap out (slew rate limitations, current limit, low output swing with clipping, other sources of distortion) for even moderate headphone levels. My point: it’s completely possible to have a terrible design or a really nice design having a low small-signal Zout. It’s tough to have really great headphone amps with the lower supply voltages typical of budget interfaces but they’re usually fine for headphones of moderate impedance. Ironinthepath did a really good job except he forgot 2 very important factors 1; impendance ratings of all drivers are nominal, actually impendance varies with frequency. 2 most amps will be fine with a single set of phones, but when you parallel 4 8 ohm headphones your at a nominal 2 ohms and at some frequency probably around .5 that where the problems start.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2024 21:19:31 GMT -6
I've been running my Rane HC-6 forever. I just send one mix out to the players, but there are inputs on the back that I might be able to make multiple mixes with... It's got plenty of power for loud dates. A great affordable headphone amp, just don’t try to drive 6 pairs of MDR7506’s that sucker will shut down.
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Post by drumsound on Sept 17, 2024 21:22:40 GMT -6
I've been running my Rane HC-6 forever. I just send one mix out to the players, but there are inputs on the back that I might be able to make multiple mixes with... It's got plenty of power for loud dates. A great affordable headphone amp, just don’t try to drive 6 pairs of MDR7506’s that sucker will shut down. Noted. I don't spend a lot of cans, because they seem to get destroyed. I do have one set of nicer Shures that I keep in the booth mostly for singers.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2024 21:44:27 GMT -6
A great affordable headphone amp, just don’t try to drive 6 pairs of MDR7506’s that sucker will shut down. Noted. I don't spend a lot of cans, because they seem to get destroyed. I do have one set of nicer Shures that I keep in the booth mostly for singers. Don’t get me wrong the Rane line wort is a pretty good little PSU for line level, we even used them in the little Intelix VCA mixers, but when it comes to driving low impendance loads even with just 6 little 2w amps it craps out. Another thing to look for is the little belt pack amps used by broadcast guys for fold back. Gain control on each performers belt.
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Post by thirdeye on Sept 18, 2024 5:23:50 GMT -6
I've looked through some of the past threads here. Obviously the RNDHP, Little Labs Monotor, Avenson or Grace are great, but I'm not looking to spend $500+ right now. So anybody find anything halfway decent in the < $200 range that is worth trying? (edit: I'm thinking more for mixing since I already have 8 outputs for tracking with the HPA-8...) I looked at some of the Schiit and Fosi headphone amps, but I don't really need a DAC - I need analog since it will connect to an Orion 32+. I need at least one headphone jack, but multiple would be fine. I'd prefer TRS inputs, but could probably live with RCA (it won't go too far from the interface, but I'm always concerned about EMI and unbalanced cables when near the computer and other gear, so I'd have to try it). I also do have SPDIF or ADAT ports available on the Orion 32+. I've been using my Nady HPA-8 for the last 10 years and thought maybe I'd try something better than that or a Behringer, or if this does not exist in this price range I might just pick up a Behringer HA4000 because they are pretty cheap used and then I'll have more than enough headphone feeds. I have a little utility Aphex Headpod thingy that works well enough for what it is. I'll use it for a producer/stereo feed when I'm tracking with microphones in the control room and the monitors are off. Artist/engineer headphones for tracking are furman mixers.
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Post by doubledog on Sept 20, 2024 10:46:46 GMT -6
Well, I picked up a used Behringer HA4000. It fulfills the need for some extra channels (now I can serve up 4 different headphone cues) and it doesn't suck because I only paid $30 for it. And maybe someday down the road I'll pickup a better quality "producer" hp amp... (or not since I don't really have any complaints with the current one but also have never compared to a really good one...)
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Post by moeses on Sept 21, 2024 16:38:23 GMT -6
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 21, 2024 20:42:56 GMT -6
I read their marketing material about class A vs. class AB, and I’m not convinced they fully understand the circuits they’re describing. Just about any basic opamp chip potentially used to drive headphones (or most practical loads) will operate in a push-pull fashion using essentially the same class AB approach, including the well known (not necessarily loved) JRC4580 mentioned above (using bipolar transistors, BJTs, internally). So it’s not clear what novelty their circuit is actually offering. They might be using discrete BJTs in the feedback path in a class-AB arrangement, but this is a known (and decent) way to make a headphone amp. They are basically describing the 990 discrete opamp that was developed in the late 70s or early 80s. Beyond that, if heat and battery life is of no concern it is basically a known fact that class A biasing (super inefficient) avoids any form of cross over distortion and is generally agreed to be capable of cleanest signal reproduction. But the vast majority of amplifiers use class AB biasing, resulting in suitable results : so what’s novel? Other than inefficiency (battery lifetime, etc.), what is wrong with class A? About the 100 ohm output impedance: it’s either a mistake and it’s in milli-Ohms or they’re attempting some sort load matching with the goal of “maximum power transfer “: but this scheme requires something called “conjugate” matching of impedances which is essentially impossible in this case because headphones loads are not simply resistive (keep one value over frequency), they have inductive and capacitive components that are different for each headphone model out there (and probably bad matching between different units of the same model). I’m a firm believer in “if it sounds right, it is right” mindset, and maybe that’s the case here somehow, but from an electronics perspective I fail to see what revolutionary technique is being offered. Would love to hear from anybody with first hand experience using the hpm-2 (and/or a schematic!). Edit: I should clarify that it’ll obviously be functional or they’d have no product to offer, it’s just not clear that it’s a better design than options most of us have readily available, included in other gear for the headphone amp itself. The other features it offers seem quite interesting (mid-side variations, etc.)
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 22, 2024 2:07:11 GMT -6
If you have a 500 series chassis. CAPI sells a nice kit:
DIYRE also makes a nice kit although you have to provide your own chassis for it and PSU. (very easy to deal with)
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 22, 2024 8:21:19 GMT -6
If you have a 500 series chassis. CAPI sells a nice kit: DIYRE also makes a nice kit although you have to provide your own chassis for it and PSU. (very easy to deal with) Took a quick look into the CAPI, even though I couldn’t find a schematic for it, the PCB and parts list certainly seem to imply it’s a class AB design with discrete BJTs and some Texas Instruments opamps for feedback. A solid design for sure and also essentially what was described in the HPM-2. I think I’d go CAPI, in part because I like DIY.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 22, 2024 8:26:33 GMT -6
I use this - it's seriously great. mtraudio.com/product/hpa-6-headphone-amplifier/Proper old school electronics and a great solid super clear signal for tracking. For my Senny HD600 (mix reference checking) I use the Crane Song Avocet headphone output as that's a really classy high quality sound.
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Post by sean on Sept 22, 2024 9:04:45 GMT -6
Happy with my Little Labs Monotor, it was $300 used. I also have a M900 which is a great portable solution, but definitely needs the power supply to drive most headphones
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Post by Dan on Sept 22, 2024 9:52:43 GMT -6
Schiit Magnius is good and direct sale hifi gear so it’s cheaper. Has xlr i/o unlike the Magni.
I didn’t like the RND headphone amp. It didn’t sound right. The Little Labs and Grace are both good. The Grace is not as good as the mic Pres but very pleasant.
Honestly what’s in better interface brands like Apogee, Lynx, and even RME is pretty good.
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