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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 2, 2024 3:35:18 GMT -6
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 2, 2024 5:28:01 GMT -6
Interesting. Its been a while since I’ve heard about anyone doing a converter test. Seemed like 10-15 years ago it was a hot topic. I’d be curious about this test using more common popular choices like the latest Apollo’s, Lynx, Focusrite, RME, Motu, etc….i have a friend with an older Metric Halo, and he has no desire to swap it out with anything!
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Post by keymod on Sept 2, 2024 5:39:12 GMT -6
This was done at my place, Spiritworks Productions, a couple years ago already. It convinced me to sell the 2192, which rarely saw any use. I kept the Radar because I love the workflow it provides. I sold off our Motu gear and invested in four Metric Halo Lio-8 units for our Pro Tools rig. My intention is to also use the Lio's with the Radar, via AES.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 2, 2024 5:49:41 GMT -6
Interesting. It’s been a while since I’ve heard about anyone doing a converter test. Seemed like 10-15 years ago it was a hot topic. I’d be curious about this test using more common popular choices like the latest Apollo’s, Lynx, Focusrite, RME, Motu, etc….i have a friend with an older Metric Halo, and he has no desire to swap it out with anything! That’s my experience. I spent a small fortune on Crane song converters years ago. Recently I bought a Ferrofish Pulse 16 and I did some ABX testing against my HEDD 192 and Avocet and being totally honestly it was difficult to hear any difference! If I concentrate and very critically listen, then I can hear the stereo information of complex mix is more detailed and more space around instruments on the Crane song converters (but not by much!) On recording single mono source's, then no way can I pick any difference! So I agree, the converter obsession has become a bit of an irrelevant topic to my ears here in 2024 - well for recording popular music - perhaps the world of classical is more demanding with its requirements for enormous dynamic range and spacial information. I’m thrilled with my Crane song converters paired with my Pulse 16 adat i/o …. they work together perfectly. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 10:10:16 GMT -6
At this point, it does seem like even the best conversion has trickled down to even the consumer stuff. I bet at this point it’s just more about the path around the chips.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Sept 2, 2024 11:01:25 GMT -6
This was done at my place, Spiritworks Productions, a couple years ago already. It convinced me to sell the 2192, which rarely saw any use. I kept the Radar because I love the workflow it provides. I sold off our Motu gear and invested in four Metric Halo Lio-8 units for our Pro Tools rig. My intention is to also use the Lio's with the Radar, via AES. Curious what you didn’t like about the 2192? Have one here with an Aurora (n). |
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Post by keymod on Sept 2, 2024 11:26:33 GMT -6
The 2192 wasn't being used here with the other options we had at the time. This shootout led me to realize it would remain unused, so I sold it to fund other gear. I agreed with William and Steves' assessments of the items in the shootout.
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 2, 2024 11:35:50 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though.
The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 12:30:57 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though. The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha. I do think they can make a difference to your mixing, though. If I’m hearing a harsh top end, I’m more likely to make changes to the top end. Etc. |
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 2, 2024 14:25:23 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though. The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha. I do think they can make a difference to your mixing, though. If I’m hearing a harsh top end, I’m more likely to make changes to the top end. Etc. Well if the toppend sounds fine on the Prism but is a bit more abrasive on the RME. Which one is right? It's not going to be night and day difference where one is harsh and the other one is smooth, so it doesn't really matter to much. I've also been send quite a few converter tests from a top mastering engineer where all the boutique brands where included and everyone listening to that test felt differently. Sure once I knew the answer the 10k converter sounded a bit more 3d, but hey, add 0.2db on one of the file and you'll feel that sounds more crisp and better. Buy something good that fits your need and forget about it! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 2, 2024 14:51:16 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though. The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha. I do think they can make a difference to your mixing, though. If I’m hearing a harsh top end, I’m more likely to make changes to the top end. Etc. I agree JK, the accumulative character adds up over many tracks, haven't had a chance to dive into my new Lynx aroura n, but i bought it on the idea this will stack tracks as good as anything available |
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Post by nomatic on Sept 2, 2024 15:16:54 GMT -6
I will say there is still something so organic about my JCF AD-8s that I probably will use them forever....
This being said I have to upgrade my Metric Halo ULN-8 to Mk 4 just to compare..
I also have Prism and Lynx Aurora N..
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Post by Dan on Sept 2, 2024 16:22:52 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though. The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha. I do think they can make a difference to your mixing, though. If I’m hearing a harsh top end, I’m more likely to make changes to the top end. Etc. The non cheapo chips from all the big brands are all fine: TI, Cirrus, ESS, AKM, AD. Some of them have inadequate band rejection or place half band filters in suboptimal spots (the slight increase in aliaising is rolled off if placed right and over -100db down by 20khz) and many manufacturers choose the minimum phase filters on the chip because they are incapable or don’t want to devote the resources to make a nice sounding analog section. Another thing is many budget manufacturers or ones going for lower latency will tack on a minimum phase filter to a linear phase on the chip that has inadequate band rejection. They don’t want to use a more expensive chip with a real filter or pay for additional dsp to have their own. Then they will often claim there is not a difference and you cannot hear rising distortion in the top end or a drastic phase shift. These are very audible in my opinion. The lack of clarity is huge. The problem is if the harsh end isn’t really there, you’re changing it for nothing. RME not the ADI-2 Pro has this problem and still does and I’m not really a fan of the ADI-2 Pro but it’s better than a lot of other stuff. So does Steinberg. So did a lot of older converters from 10-15 years ago. The cheap stuff is all awful and gets in the way. The midrange stuff can be mediocre to good ime sometimes in the same unit like MOTU or not sound bad but be horrible to use in the real world like the Focusrite Claret and the Reds that have digital control are horribly overpriced because the sound still isn’t there like the better multichannel converters but they want the price for the Dante ecosystem. UAD is similar. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 18:27:04 GMT -6
I will say there is still something so organic about my JCF AD-8s that I probably will use them forever.... This being said I have to upgrade my Metric Halo ULN-8 to Mk 4 just to compare.. I also have Prism and Lynx Aurora N.. Damnit, Michael…we can’t afford them! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6
I will say there is still something so organic about my JCF AD-8s that I probably will use them forever.... This being said I have to upgrade my Metric Halo ULN-8 to Mk 4 just to compare.. I also have Prism and Lynx Aurora N.. So - the metric halo stuff - I’ve somehow never tried it…but it’s on par with those names? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 2, 2024 18:51:32 GMT -6
I will say there is still something so organic about my JCF AD-8s that I probably will use them forever.... This being said I have to upgrade my Metric Halo ULN-8 to Mk 4 just to compare.. I also have Prism and Lynx Aurora N.. So - the metric halo stuff - I’ve somehow never tried it…but it’s on par with those names? As a Metric Halo user, I do believe the LIO-8 (line inputs only) or ULN-8 (mic pres onboard along with line inputs) are on par with the Lynx Aurora N or Prism or Apogee Symphony. The JCF stuff I suspect are on a higher plane, but I’ve never heard those and can’t say for sure. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 19:22:50 GMT -6
So - the metric halo stuff - I’ve somehow never tried it…but it’s on par with those names? As a Metric Halo user, I do believe the LIO-8 (line inputs only) or ULN-8 (mic pres onboard along with line inputs) are on par with the Lynx Aurora N or Prism or Apogee Symphony. The JCF stuff I suspect are on a higher plane, but I’ve never heard those and can’t say for sure. Well, the JCF costs enough that it SHOULD sound better. I love my Hilo…but now there’s a Hilo 2 Arghhh…ha. Nah, I’m ok. This Hilo is the cleanest most euphoric DA I’ve heard. But there might be a point where I decide to get out of the UA universe. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 2, 2024 19:27:05 GMT -6
So - the metric halo stuff - I’ve somehow never tried it…but it’s on par with those names? As a Metric Halo user, I do believe the LIO-8 (line inputs only) or ULN-8 (mic pres onboard along with line inputs) are on par with the Lynx Aurora N or Prism or Apogee Symphony. The JCF stuff I suspect are on a higher plane, but I’ve never heard those and can’t say for sure. Do only certain places sell it? Noticed it doesn’t seem to be at SW or VK…but it’s at Alto - (Alto Music - you’re local internet business store! Seth always gives me great deals  ) |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Sept 2, 2024 20:08:40 GMT -6
I'm wondering which of the Convertor boards were stuffed into the Radar? As that makes quite a difference.
The ones offered were the :
Classic
Nyquist
and the
Ultra Nyqusit
I've owned all three convertor options that they offered, and now have 3x units with the Ultra Nyquist boards.
Totally amazing sonically.
I also own and use:
Genex DSD,
UA 2192,
Metric Halo UNL-8's
UA Apollo x16, x8p,
Benchmark Dac-1, 2
Crane Song Head Quantum,
TC Finalizer plus,
And last but not least is the (Very Rare) Manley Slam Mastering version, with the Anagram Technologies ADC/DAC converters!
A good choice to pick from...
And although I have a true affinity for the Radar, I do believe the UNL-8's sound quite amazing, as do their pre-amps.
And for mix down, well the Head Quantum is the shit~!
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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 2, 2024 21:11:17 GMT -6
As a Metric Halo user, I do believe the LIO-8 (line inputs only) or ULN-8 (mic pres onboard along with line inputs) are on par with the Lynx Aurora N or Prism or Apogee Symphony. The JCF stuff I suspect are on a higher plane, but I’ve never heard those and can’t say for sure. Do only certain places sell it? Noticed it doesn’t seem to be at SW or VK…but it’s at Alto - (Alto Music - you’re local internet business store! Seth always gives me great deals ) I thought VK sold them? I know Alto does, and so does ProAudio LA, JRR shop, and at least a few others. Craig Calistro sells them, too. And you can also order direct from MH. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 3, 2024 1:16:40 GMT -6
Do only certain places sell it? Noticed it doesn’t seem to be at SW or VK…but it’s at Alto - (Alto Music - you’re local internet business store! Seth always gives me great deals ) I thought VK sold them? I know Alto does, and so does ProAudio LA, JRR shop, and at least a few others. Craig Calistro sells them, too. And you can also order direct from MH. I mean theres a JCF Latter (2ch AD/DA/Mic pre) for 6k on Reverb. lol Thats more per channel than my Merging stuff. |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 3, 2024 2:27:37 GMT -6
I currently have both an Rme UFX Gen 2 and a Prism Audio Atlas interface at home. I tried to do several tests. Mainly listening but also some ad/da round about tests. The difference is subtle and its hard to make something out of switching back and forth since I need to open and close my PT session but.. the Prism seems to sound a little bit warmer and have better bass response. Very subtle though. The thing is, if everything sounds better through the Prism, is the mix better or worse? What is right or wrong? So i came to the conclusion that you should just get whatever you need in terms of I/O etc and forget about converters. My RME UFX Gen1 sold for as much as I bought it for used 8y ago haha. For mixing, I use my HEDD to feed my stereo mix bus analog chain and Avocet for monitoring. And I do think on complex stereo material the Crane Song converters resolve the spacial information in a more detailed way (but it's very subtle) In terms of running a hybrid rig and sending out mono channels to hardware and returning to Cubase then I've done tests and I cannot hear any difference between my Pulse 16 I/O and my HEDD! Proper real world tests .... double bind ABX conducted on me (not by me) and I was just guessing which channel was Crane Song and which channel was Ferrofish! Same for tracking the output of my Waza TAE > Tone King Imperial amp > Cubase .... tracked with HEDD and then Ferrofish - ABX listening tests - I was guessing which was which. (Avocet > ATC 25 for monitoring) Converters, here in 2024 have come a very long way - there is definitely more important things to worry about making records! |
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Post by moondog on Sept 3, 2024 5:07:33 GMT -6
I do think they can make a difference to your mixing, though. If I’m hearing a harsh top end, I’m more likely to make changes to the top end. Etc. The non cheapo chips from all the big brands are all fine: TI, Cirrus, ESS, AKM, AD. Some of them have inadequate band rejection or place half band filters in suboptimal spots (the slight increase in aliaising is rolled off if placed right and over -100db down by 20khz) and many manufacturers choose the minimum phase filters on the chip because they are incapable or don’t want to devote the resources to make a nice sounding analog section. Another thing is many budget manufacturers or ones going for lower latency will tack on a minimum phase filter to a linear phase on the chip that has inadequate band rejection. They don’t want to use a more expensive chip with a real filter or pay for additional dsp to have their own. Then they will often claim there is not a difference and you cannot hear rising distortion in the top end or a drastic phase shift. These are very audible in my opinion. The lack of clarity is huge. The problem is if the harsh end isn’t really there, you’re changing it for nothing. RME not the ADI-2 Pro has this problem and still does and I’m not really a fan of the ADI-2 Pro but it’s better than a lot of other stuff. So does Steinberg. So did a lot of older converters from 10-15 years ago. The cheap stuff is all awful and gets in the way. The midrange stuff can be mediocre to good ime sometimes in the same unit like MOTU or not sound bad but be horrible to use in the real world like the Focusrite Claret and the Reds that have digital control are horribly overpriced because the sound still isn’t there like the better multichannel converters but they want the price for the Dante ecosystem. UAD is similar. I still run a RME Fireface 800. Im just used to TotalMix and i like it never crashes. Would you recommend to upgrade? I have a MetricHalo 2882 linked to it, i thought about doing the 3D upgrade to make it run with my M1. Would you think it would make a difference to use upgraded MetricHalo instead of RME and ink the other way round? |
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Post by mcirish on Sept 3, 2024 5:55:22 GMT -6
At this point, I think it's hard to justify jumping between converters, as long as they are fairly new. I have a Lynx Aurora (n). Before that, I had the original Aurora. I never did an AB test but I have a feeling the difference would be minimal if at all. I switched so I could have TB3 for the interface. In the grand scheme of things, converters will have a very small effect on the sound. That's my opinion with the latest chipsets. Of course, if the converter is 20 years old, there are newer and better options. One issue would be electrolytic caps drying up over the years. The AD/DA chips may be fine but the caps do dry up.
Anyway, I usually think that the closer to the source (artist) you get, the more important the choice is.
Artist - instrument - mic - preamp - outboard - converters. That's my order of importance. But heck... We are all total gear geeks here so please carry on.... :-)
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Post by nomatic on Sept 3, 2024 7:31:35 GMT -6
I will say there is still something so organic about my JCF AD-8s that I probably will use them forever.... This being said I have to upgrade my Metric Halo ULN-8 to Mk 4 just to compare.. I also have Prism and Lynx Aurora N.. So - the metric halo stuff - I’ve somehow never tried it…but it’s on par with those names? The Metric Halo is top notch although I enjoy the JCF as it sounds so natural... In comparison the ULN 8 is slightly more electric sounding and broader in its presentation. I still have to hear the Mark4 upgrade as apparently it is very good. |
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