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Post by bluesholyman on Aug 16, 2024 18:47:11 GMT -6
Just wondering if you feel like you've found a sweet spot in the digital realm. From my limited reading of this forum and other random ramblings across the web, feeling like the following is a good starting point, but I could be wrong:
Clock: 48khz Bit depth: 32 dbFS: -18 to -10
As always, appreciate whatever you care to share on this journey of learning....
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 16, 2024 19:10:41 GMT -6
48khz for reasons of track count in my case. If I wasn't using my console I'd probably do 96khz just cuz storage is cheap now and, why not? I don't worry about it much though.
On tracking level, I heard an SOS podcast that was pretty compelling about how tracking with less headroom should actually benefit digital recordings in theory... I thought it was a pretty cool article but then I realized I have no problem I'm trying to solve there and even the small risk of nasty clips not worth it.
So... -10 to -18 dbfs or so as well
EDIT: As someone who spent many, many hours reading and thinking and obsessing over this... I came to the conclusion that it really wasn't something worth obsessing about. Decided I didn't care anymore and never looked back. Others disagree.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 16, 2024 20:31:12 GMT -6
96k 24bit(32 float) -6db average because i can't not 😵💫
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Post by chessparov on Aug 17, 2024 0:54:17 GMT -6
Cheap Prosumer converters here. So now following this, based on Bob Olhsson's advice... Record no higher than -10. 24/48 or 24/44.1 seems/sounds fine to me. (Puts on flamesuit) Chris
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 17, 2024 5:12:10 GMT -6
Yeah I also go by 48/24, always. I have found no personal advantage in 96. It just doubles my tracking costs regarding channels. Did a remaster from vinyl a few years back where I used 96 just because in such project it didn’t restrict me. Could as well have done it in 48.
I do aim for -18 average peaks at -10. That will give me a solid average going into my mixbus. Also all plugs I use work great in that range without having to really compensate much along the way with anything.
After the mixbus, depending on the song, I usually end up peaking somewhere between -2 and -4. I don’t use limiter in my mixbus.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 17, 2024 6:52:27 GMT -6
In the past few years I'm usually tracking at 24/96. I do hear a difference vs. 24/44.1 (or 48) when I've got more tracks and more plugins (and maybe it's aliasing or whatever- don't really care - I like it at 96). When I'm just tracking drums for a client I default to 24/44.1 and for most that's what they seem to want (sometimes 24/48) and if they want 24/96 then it's been a slight upcharge (because it does take 2x the disk space, more upload time, etc. - although to be honest that was more significant 10 years ago). I thought about changing that, but almost everyone has seemed fine with 24/44.1 so haven't changed it yet.
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 17, 2024 8:30:10 GMT -6
In the past few years I'm usually tracking at 24/96. I do hear a difference vs. 24/44.1 (or 48) when I've got more tracks and more plugins (and maybe it's aliasing or whatever- don't really care - I like it at 96). When I'm just tracking drums for a client I default to 24/44.1 and for most that's what they seem to want (sometimes 24/48) and if they want 24/96 then it's been a slight upcharge (because it does take 2x the disk space, more upload time, etc. - although to be honest that was more significant 10 years ago). I thought about changing that, but almost everyone has seemed fine with 24/44.1 so haven't changed it yet. I was thinking, how do u and others here reason around 44.1? To me it seem like a unnecessary format today? CD is kind of a side dish I feel. Streaming and vinyl is the way in many cases and then 48 is what to aim for anyway in the end product. In case of CD you can always convert down. Not trying to be preaching, just honestly been thinking about it and hoping to understand more.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 17, 2024 8:50:43 GMT -6
In the past few years I'm usually tracking at 24/96. I do hear a difference vs. 24/44.1 (or 48) when I've got more tracks and more plugins (and maybe it's aliasing or whatever- don't really care - I like it at 96). When I'm just tracking drums for a client I default to 24/44.1 and for most that's what they seem to want (sometimes 24/48) and if they want 24/96 then it's been a slight upcharge (because it does take 2x the disk space, more upload time, etc. - although to be honest that was more significant 10 years ago). I thought about changing that, but almost everyone has seemed fine with 24/44.1 so haven't changed it yet. I was thinking, how do u and others here reason around 44.1? To me it seem like a unnecessary format today? CD is kind of a side dish I feel. Streaming and vinyl is the way in many cases and then 48 is what to aim for anyway in the end product. In case of CD you can always convert down. Not trying to be preaching, just honestly been thinking about it and hoping to understand more. Like I said, I use 24/96 these days... but my default used to be 24/44.1 (and yes, CDs were still a thing) and when I get projects from people requesting drum tracks, a lot of them still are using 24/44.1 and some send me 16/44.1 WAVs (I still send them 24/44.1) - I think this is the fault of Logic, or maybe even Garageband, which as I understand is not intuitive about setting your sample rates? At least that's what I was told. And I think some of it is projects that people start (at home) on consumer interfaces and they maybe don't know what they are doing, or they started it 10 years ago, and yes, it defaulted to 24/44.1. It doesn't really matter to me - if that's what my client asks for (or if they don't ask) then that's what they get. But here's the thing, I've done enough projects in both 44.1 and 48 to know that there is no perceivable difference (and it's been argued to death on the purple site and more). I can definitely hear the difference at 96 (when it's more tracks - tbh I can't usually hear it on a single track comparison). This is probably for a separate thread (if there is not one already) but when I deliver masters to a client (meaning I did the final product and not just drum tracks), I deliver the hi-res Wav (usually @96), CD quality (16/44.1) WAV, 320KBps MP3 (some streaming sites and internet radio use this), and if requested, and any other formats they might need for whatever the final product is.
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 17, 2024 9:15:48 GMT -6
I was thinking, how do u and others here reason around 44.1? To me it seem like a unnecessary format today? CD is kind of a side dish I feel. Streaming and vinyl is the way in many cases and then 48 is what to aim for anyway in the end product. In case of CD you can always convert down. Not trying to be preaching, just honestly been thinking about it and hoping to understand more. Like I said, I use 24/96 these days... but my default used to be 24/44.1 (and yes, CDs were still a thing) and when I get projects from people requesting drum tracks, a lot of them still are using 24/44.1 and some send me 16/44.1 WAVs (I still send them 24/44.1) - I think this is the fault of Logic, or maybe even Garageband, which as I understand is not intuitive about setting your sample rates? At least that's what I was told. And I think some of it is projects that people start (at home) on consumer interfaces and they maybe don't know what they are doing, or they started it 10 years ago, and yes, it defaulted to 24/44.1. It doesn't really matter to me - if that's what my client asks for (or if they don't ask) then that's what they get. But here's the thing, I've done enough projects in both 44.1 and 48 to know that there is no perceivable difference (and it's been argued to death on the purple site and more). I can definitely hear the difference at 96 (when it's more tracks - tbh I can't usually hear it on a single track comparison). This is probably for a separate thread (if there is not one already) but when I deliver masters to a client (meaning I did the final product and not just drum tracks), I deliver the hi-res Wav (usually @96), CD quality (16/44.1) WAV, 320KBps MP3 (some streaming sites and internet radio use this), and if requested, and any other formats they might need for whatever the final product is. Yeah, of course, now I get it, that makes perfectly sense going 44.1 in cases like that.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2024 9:23:42 GMT -6
Didn’t Mr Olhsson comment in length on here about how plugins are optimized around 96k sample rate? I believe there is something that goes on with truncation errors etc when u deviate? I couldn’t find the thread in a search and I could be misremembering…. 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2024 9:28:38 GMT -6
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 17, 2024 10:42:53 GMT -6
I stick with 24 and 48. Been meaning to go up to 32 bit floating point. 48 I use because I have a reverb unit hooked up via spdif that is elderly and tops out at 48. But I do recall the discussion that at least some plugins, perhaps most now, benefit from higher sample rates.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by svart on Aug 17, 2024 13:06:57 GMT -6
24/88.2k. I just don't hit the converters hard enough to peak. I suppose it's around 6db down or so.
Mix down to 24/88.2k as my HD master file.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 17, 2024 13:39:50 GMT -6
24/96 here
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 17, 2024 14:40:12 GMT -6
24/88.2k. I just don't hit the converters hard enough to peak. I suppose it's around 6db down or so. Mix down to 24/88.2k as my HD master file. Why 88 instead of 96?
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Post by Dan on Aug 17, 2024 14:52:03 GMT -6
Didn’t Mr Olhsson comment in length on here about how plugins are optimized around 96k sample rate? I believe there is something that goes on with truncation errors etc when u deviate? I couldn’t find the thread in a search and I could be misremembering…. 🤷🏻♂️ Good plugins are optimized for all sample rates. They either oversample or have other distortion prevention mechanisms like advanced, windowed average attack smoothing filters in dynamics, decramped eq filters, unique rms smoothing, smoothed zero crossings in rectifiers, or can only apply distortion to the low frequencies to not alias, etc. take Oxford eq and Oxford dynamics. They are old plugins but well designed. The smoothing low pass to the dynamics that smooths the rate of attack release switching changed based on sample rate to not alias heavily even if the lookahead time that smooths the attack stays the same. So it can compress higher frequencies the higher the sample rate it without merely ramping them down beforehand. Renaissance eq and compressor are similar but I don’t know if they change based on sample rate. Also modern processors like Weiss and TDR will over sample the audio path entirely different than the side chain to ensure low distortion and lower cpu usage. Even old distortion plugs like Vintage Warmer and Decapitator have ways to minimize high frequency distortion at single sample rates. And your converter chips are all running at a high sample rate in the mhz now and are linear to their dithered noise floor, clock, and analog electronics theoretically. They just filter it to the desired sample rate. The digital part is solved but cheap ones still screw up or do dumbass stuff like dsd or do not use dither, which breaks the sampling theorem. A lot of the depth increase into gear without hysteresis is just ignorant users not dithering, dulling everything, making the sample values slightly wrong. Dc filters in clean transformer less gear will make the peaks slightly higher and more forward from phase shift just running through it when level matched. Depth and width increases break down when you consider component mismatches in l/r and unwanted hysteresis murking up the signal even with jensens.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 17, 2024 14:58:18 GMT -6
Didn’t Mr Olhsson comment in length on here about how plugins are optimized around 96k sample rate? I believe there is something that goes on with truncation errors etc when u deviate? I couldn’t find the thread in a search and I could be misremembering…. 🤷🏻♂️ No. Good plugins are optimized for all sample rates. They either oversample or have other distortion prevention mechanisms like advanced, windowed average attack smoothing filters in dynamics, decramped eq filters, unique rms smoothing, smoothed zero crossings in rectifiers, or can only apply distortion to the low frequencies to not alias, etc. take Oxford eq and Oxford dynamics. They are old plugins but well designed. The smoothing low pass to the dynamics that smooths the rate of attack release switching changed based on sample rate to not alias heavily even if the lookahead time that smooths the attack stays the same. So it can compress higher frequencies the higher the sample rate it without merely ramping them down beforehand. Renaissance eq and compressor are similar but I don’t know if they change based on sample rate. Also modern processors like Weiss and TDR will over sample the audio path entirely different than the side chain to ensure low distortion and lower cpu usage. Even old distortion plugs like Vintage Warmer and Decapitator have ways to minimize high frequency distortion at single sample rates. And your converter chips are all running at a high sample rate in the mhz now and are linear to their dithered noise floor, clock, and analog electronics theoretically. They just filter it to the desired sample rate. The digital part is solved but cheap ones still screw up or do dumbass stuff like dsd or do not use dither, which breaks the sampling theorem. A lot of the depth increase into gear without hysteresis is just ignorant users not dithering, dulling everything, making the sample values slightly wrong. Dc filters in clean transformer less gear will make the peaks slightly higher and more forward from phase shift just running through it when level matched. Depth and width increases break down when you consider component mismatches in l/r and unwanted hysteresis murking up the signal even with jensens. I asked you this on another thread, but if you ran higher sample rates would that mean that you could do less oversampling on plugins? For example... would I still want to run TDR on Insane mode if I was working with 96khz files? I think you're going to say "yes" but I'm curious if it would at least reduce the need for that type of thing even if it doesn't completely eliminate it. To me the sonic benefit is lost if my DAW gets bogged down on a mix and I'm already getting bogged down at the very end in some cases. This is due to plugins where I have jacked up the oversampling such as Soothe 2, TDR, and LiquidSonics.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 17, 2024 15:03:29 GMT -6
when this happens to me, I start freezing or committing tracks to save some CPU (which is always the issue - my SSD drive has never had a hiccup)
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 17, 2024 21:09:18 GMT -6
I do everything at 96. It isn't always better but it has never been worse.
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Post by svart on Aug 17, 2024 21:41:58 GMT -6
24/88.2k. I just don't hit the converters hard enough to peak. I suppose it's around 6db down or so. Mix down to 24/88.2k as my HD master file. Why 88 instead of 96? The main reason was that back in the day I would always downsample to CD quality and it was easier on the computers to do a divide-by-two.. but now it doesn't really matter much anymore but it saves me a little room and I don't hear any difference between 88.2 and 96.
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 17, 2024 23:53:11 GMT -6
I still use 44.1 out of old, auto habit and 32 bit on a 16 core Mac 7,1 into the latest Mac OS and the latest PT HDX Ultimate. Whenever I tried 96 in the past I was amazed how plug ins performed. So much better. But I’m gonna try and remember to use 96 when I create a new template.For overall quality. My other 7,1 16 core is Ableton Live for synths and beats etc.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 18, 2024 11:00:11 GMT -6
The main reason was that back in the day I would always downsample to CD quality and it was easier on the computers to do a divide-by-two.. but now it doesn't really matter much anymore but it saves me a little room and I don't hear any difference between 88.2 and 96. I swear Paul Frindle debunked the "easy math" rationale for 88.2 in that big GS thread, but I haven't been able to find it again. (And I know how much you know about this stuff, Svart).
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Post by Dan on Aug 18, 2024 11:04:05 GMT -6
No. Good plugins are optimized for all sample rates. They either oversample or have other distortion prevention mechanisms like advanced, windowed average attack smoothing filters in dynamics, decramped eq filters, unique rms smoothing, smoothed zero crossings in rectifiers, or can only apply distortion to the low frequencies to not alias, etc. take Oxford eq and Oxford dynamics. They are old plugins but well designed. The smoothing low pass to the dynamics that smooths the rate of attack release switching changed based on sample rate to not alias heavily even if the lookahead time that smooths the attack stays the same. So it can compress higher frequencies the higher the sample rate it without merely ramping them down beforehand. Renaissance eq and compressor are similar but I don’t know if they change based on sample rate. Also modern processors like Weiss and TDR will over sample the audio path entirely different than the side chain to ensure low distortion and lower cpu usage. Even old distortion plugs like Vintage Warmer and Decapitator have ways to minimize high frequency distortion at single sample rates. And your converter chips are all running at a high sample rate in the mhz now and are linear to their dithered noise floor, clock, and analog electronics theoretically. They just filter it to the desired sample rate. The digital part is solved but cheap ones still screw up or do dumbass stuff like dsd or do not use dither, which breaks the sampling theorem. A lot of the depth increase into gear without hysteresis is just ignorant users not dithering, dulling everything, making the sample values slightly wrong. Dc filters in clean transformer less gear will make the peaks slightly higher and more forward from phase shift just running through it when level matched. Depth and width increases break down when you consider component mismatches in l/r and unwanted hysteresis murking up the signal even with jensens. I asked you this on another thread, but if you ran higher sample rates would that mean that you could do less oversampling on plugins? For example... would I still want to run TDR on Insane mode if I was working with 96khz files? I think you're going to say "yes" but I'm curious if it would at least reduce the need for that type of thing even if it doesn't completely eliminate it. To me the sonic benefit is lost if my DAW gets bogged down on a mix and I'm already getting bogged down at the very end in some cases. This is due to plugins where I have jacked up the oversampling such as Soothe 2, TDR, and LiquidSonics. Yes. The only thing you save by recording to 88.2 and 96 kHz is getting the anti alias filters optimally out of the audio path and they’re not really there even with modern linear phase filters but there’s debate on what the best one should be and double sampling rates negate any of that. Mixing at 88.2 or 96 kHz just will prevent the audio path of certain plugs like Weiss EQ1, DS1, MDWEQ, TDR Kotelnikov from being upsampled. The Softube Weiss, TDR, Klanghelm and Goodhertz on HQ, are often upsampling certain functions much more than in the audio path and often have more complex non-linearities. 88.2 and 96 kHz will make easy basic daw functions twice as cpu intensive and anti alias stuff like automation and other weakly modulated signals but this doesn’t matter that much in Pro Tools, Logic, and Reaper. Cubase/Nuendo the unoptimized engine will crap out before your cpu. Freeze tracks, use unoptimized cpu monster plugs like soothe2, dmg at mega oversampling or fir settings, goodhertz on old computers, softube on old computers, liquidsonics, ozone, sparingly. The TDR and recently optimized Weiss plugs are surprisingly efficient.
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Post by Dan on Aug 18, 2024 11:07:06 GMT -6
The main reason was that back in the day I would always downsample to CD quality and it was easier on the computers to do a divide-by-two.. but now it doesn't really matter much anymore but it saves me a little room and I don't hear any difference between 88.2 and 96. I swear Paul Frindle debunked the "easy math" rationale for 88.2 in that big GS thread, but I haven't been able to find it again. (And I know how much you know about this stuff, Svart). the math is trivial for modern cpus and asrc chips. Just finds a lower common multiple. I still use 88.2 for music.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 18, 2024 11:51:37 GMT -6
(Best Bob Denver/Gilligan Voice) "Gee Professor I thought 98.6 was Normal" So now I'm... Torn between two Sample Rates. Don't know what to do. Loving 44 and 48. Is breaking all the rules. Chris
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