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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 16, 2024 13:57:18 GMT -6
Hi all, So we dropped the V14 Variable-Voltage Tube Condenser announcement today. Instead of doing the whole "NEW PRODUCT ALERT" schtick that I did on that purple forum, I figured I'd just drop the link here and then if you've got questions you can post them here. It really is an "ask me anything"…I'm happy to answer whatever I can short of giving away the farm. I'll try to be as engaged as possible and stay on top of answers. I didn't get on pro audio forums much before Ken died in March…Now I've got even less time to do so. So with that being said: Vanguard V14 Variable-Voltage Tube CondenserSome of the 10,000' view highlights: - Variable Voltage Control - sag or oversupply the tube. Sort of like EVH's "brown sound", but for mics, and i'm not sagging the entire supply. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is a brand-new thing. I'm not as much of a mic historian as some of the folks on here.
- 3 Switchable Voicings - "12", "251", or "ribbon"-style tonal options, switchable at the mic
- BeesNeez CK12 Capsule, Cinemag T14 transformer, Neutrik interconnects, PRP resistors, vintage GE 6072 triple-mica tube, and more round out the single-triode self-biased design.
- Improvement on the original Austrian circuit design - a modernized PSU, extra filtering, greatly extended LF response
- 9 polar patterns, because wide cardioid is, in my estimation, criminally underrated.
- Deep-cycle cryo treatment of the majority of components
- Built by hand in our California shop. PSU bodies laser-cut and bent in Hatfield, PA. Mic bodies hand-polished in Ontario, CA. Laser engraving, PCB population, and full assembly in Upland, CA.
10 units for the first production run, $4999 each, shipping August 31. We're waiting on a couple bits and bobs - namely the custom foam for the SKB cases - but they should all be delivered well before then. Ask Me Anything!
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Post by andersmv on Aug 16, 2024 14:11:52 GMT -6
I did a video for Vanguard documenting part of the design and tinkering process that I'll link below. I really appreciate Derek letting me be a part of all of this. Derek, we had talked about this a little off and on while you were here and we were shooting video. At this point (not even counting the voicing switch and variable tube voltage), what is still "C12'ish" in this circuit and where have things branched out and changed? What are the difference between one side of the V24 and the V14?
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 16, 2024 14:35:16 GMT -6
I did a video for Vanguard documenting part of the design and tinkering process that I'll link below. I really appreciate Derek letting me be a part of all of this. Derek, we had talked about this a little off and on while you were here and we were shooting video. At this point (not even counting the voicing switch and variable tube voltage), what is still "C12'ish" in this circuit and where have things branched out and changed? What are the difference between one side of the V24 and the V14? stream of consciousness incoming C12 runs on a fixed bias while the C24 is a cathode bias (same as a 251). The C24 is a sort of amalgamation of a 251 and C12 circuit in some ways. The V24 starts with the C24 circuit. The V14 is essentially one half of the V24 circuit and is cathode-biased. I was able to remove the crosstalk filters from V24 when we started designing the V14, because there's not a second capsule/signal path for it to talk to. I do have some extra power filtering in place that the C12/251 didn't have. The 2nd gen of the C24 implemented some of this, but not all of it. transformer size increase in the Cinemag means you can increase the low end extension without fear, unlike the old AKG T14/1s which were tee-tiny. You get quite a bit more low end extension when you raise a few component values from the C12/251/C24 schems. In the earliest C24s the transformer coupling caps were 0.5uF, and the LF rolloff was significant! Most tube mics out there in the CCDA vein are actually 6-pin, even though they use a 7 pin connector. This includes the APEX460, Vanguard V13, Avantone CV12, and plenty of others. Having that extra pin, I was able to use a separate line for the tube voltage control without needing any sort of fancy-pants connector like the V24 needed…just a good old Neutrik 7-pin XLR. The biggest connection back to the C12/251/C24 remains the single-triode transformer-coupled design centered around a really high-spec 6072 (triple mica GE 5-star tubes in the case of the V14 and V24), and of course Ben's excellent BeesNeez CK12, the true beating heart of the entire operation. The PSU is probably the biggest component-for-component change from a C12 or 251 PSU. The nice thing about high-ripple low-ESR electrolytic caps you can get these days is they are oodles better than anything AKG had access to. We do muuuch more filtering than they did, as well, particularly on the B+/capsule voltage leg of the transformer. I tried paralleling smaller SM caps along the big filter caps during V24 testing, and was surprised to find that I couldn't detect a difference in the B+ noise level on my O-scope. I'm guessing the extra filtering we already have in place has something to do with it. Ultimately though it's the ears that matter here. I was never trying to sound "exactly like" a 251, 12, C24, or anything else - just sound fantastic. (this is beside that quest being a fool's errand, given how different the C24s we've tested against the V24 sound…)
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Post by Ward on Aug 16, 2024 16:49:36 GMT -6
I can't speak to this new V14, but I can attest to what an ABSOLUTE JOY it is to have a V44s that is permanently set up in the big room, and captures room like almost nothing else. (except for the C24 and V24, of course).
And with collaborations between Derek and Ben now? Holy smokes!
And if there's any doubts, I like all the Vanguard mics I've tried, a lot!
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 16, 2024 19:42:25 GMT -6
I can't speak to this new V14, but I can attest to what an ABSOLUTE JOY it is to have a V44s that is permanently set up in the big room, and captures room like almost nothing else. (except for the C24 and V24, of course). And with collaborations between Derek and Ben now? Holy smokes! And if there's any doubts, I like all the Vanguard mics I've tried, a lot! Ben is far more knowledgeable about mics than I may ever be. And i don't know if i'll ever summon the courage to try building or even re-skinng capsules. I drink too much coffee to have hands of ice like that!
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Post by andersmv on Aug 16, 2024 21:03:41 GMT -6
I can't speak to this new V14, but I can attest to what an ABSOLUTE JOY it is to have a V44s that is permanently set up in the big room, and captures room like almost nothing else. (except for the C24 and V24, of course). And with collaborations between Derek and Ben now? Holy smokes! And if there's any doubts, I like all the Vanguard mics I've tried, a lot! Ben is far more knowledgeable about mics than I may ever be. And i don't know if i'll ever summon the courage to try building or even re-skinng capsules. I drink too much coffee to have hands of ice like that! You should try one and throw it in a lolli head just for the hell of it. Maybe that can be a video we do, you drink a bunch of coffee and I drink a bunch of soda and we each build a capsule 😂
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Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2024 14:27:02 GMT -6
I can't speak to this new V14, but I can attest to what an ABSOLUTE JOY it is to have a V44s that is permanently set up in the big room, and captures room like almost nothing else. (except for the C24 and V24, of course). And with collaborations between Derek and Ben now? Holy smokes! And if there's any doubts, I like all the Vanguard mics I've tried, a lot! Ben is far more knowledgeable about mics than I may ever be. And i don't know if i'll ever summon the courage to try building or even re-skinng capsules. I drink too much coffee to have hands of ice like that! I could come over next time I'm in the Ranch, and bring coffee and Bailey's and watch and/or assist!
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 17, 2024 17:38:47 GMT -6
Ben is far more knowledgeable about mics than I may ever be. And i don't know if i'll ever summon the courage to try building or even re-skinng capsules. I drink too much coffee to have hands of ice like that! You should try one and throw it in a lolli head just for the hell of it. Maybe that can be a video we do, you drink a bunch of coffee and I drink a bunch of soda and we each build a capsule 😂 oh, we have big plans for the LOLLI gen2….
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2024 9:55:46 GMT -6
Ben is far more knowledgeable about mics than I may ever be. And i don't know if i'll ever summon the courage to try building or even re-skinng capsules. I drink too much coffee to have hands of ice like that! I could come over next time I'm in the Ranch, and bring coffee and Bailey's and watch and/or assist! Baileys AND coffee for sure!
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Post by Ward on Aug 19, 2024 18:30:07 GMT -6
I could come over next time I'm in the Ranch, and bring coffee and Bailey's and watch and/or assist! Baileys AND coffee for sure! Consider that a done deal!
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 23, 2024 14:04:21 GMT -6
Alright, a serious final design question. I'm usually function > fashion kind of person, so initially wanted to have the tube voltage knob be a different color than the pattern knob. However, they look really slick with just the red knobs. As an engineer, does this matter to you? Which one do you prefer?
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Post by doubledog on Aug 23, 2024 16:45:06 GMT -6
The red looks nice. if I had to have 2 different colors though I'd probably reverse it and put the black one on pattern, and the red on voltage (just how my mind works). But with the matching red screws, maybe just keep it all red?
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 24, 2024 5:20:39 GMT -6
Def all red or all black. I vote red with the red screws.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,059
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2024 14:32:44 GMT -6
Alright, a serious final design question. I'm usually function > fashion kind of person, so initially wanted to have the tube voltage knob be a different color than the pattern knob. However, they look really slick with just the red knobs. As an engineer, does this matter to you? Which one do you prefer? What ever is easiest to read in low light!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 24, 2024 14:55:55 GMT -6
Alright, a serious final design question. I'm usually function > fashion kind of person, so initially wanted to have the tube voltage knob be a different color than the pattern knob. However, they look really slick with just the red knobs. As an engineer, does this matter to you? Which one do you prefer? I don’t think it would bother me (being the same color)…but it does kind've make sense for them to be different colors.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 24, 2024 14:57:23 GMT -6
Hi all, So we dropped the V14 Variable-Voltage Tube Condenser announcement today. Instead of doing the whole "NEW PRODUCT ALERT" schtick that I did on that purple forum, I figured I'd just drop the link here and then if you've got questions you can post them here. It really is an "ask me anything"…I'm happy to answer whatever I can short of giving away the farm. I'll try to be as engaged as possible and stay on top of answers. I didn't get on pro audio forums much before Ken died in March…Now I've got even less time to do so. So with that being said: Vanguard V14 Variable-Voltage Tube CondenserSome of the 10,000' view highlights: - Variable Voltage Control - sag or oversupply the tube. Sort of like EVH's "brown sound", but for mics, and i'm not sagging the entire supply. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is a brand-new thing. I'm not as much of a mic historian as some of the folks on here.
- 3 Switchable Voicings - "12", "251", or "ribbon"-style tonal options, switchable at the mic
- BeesNeez CK12 Capsule, Cinemag T14 transformer, Neutrik interconnects, PRP resistors, vintage GE 6072 triple-mica tube, and more round out the single-triode self-biased design.
- Improvement on the original Austrian circuit design - a modernized PSU, extra filtering, greatly extended LF response
- 9 polar patterns, because wide cardioid is, in my estimation, criminally underrated.
- Deep-cycle cryo treatment of the majority of components
- Built by hand in our California shop. PSU bodies laser-cut and bent in Hatfield, PA. Mic bodies hand-polished in Ontario, CA. Laser engraving, PCB population, and full assembly in Upland, CA.
10 units for the first production run, $4999 each, shipping August 31. We're waiting on a couple bits and bobs - namely the custom foam for the SKB cases - but they should all be delivered well before then. Ask Me Anything!So are the tonal options EQ curves to approximate the different mics? What does the voltage control do to the mic sonically? Edit - ah. I see. It’s a CK12 with 6072…so 251…
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 26, 2024 9:58:10 GMT -6
So are the tonal options EQ curves to approximate the different mics? What does the voltage control do to the mic sonically? Edit - ah. I see. It’s a CK12 with 6072…so 251… Voltage control does a number of things sonically. 1/ FR - sagging the tube in particular will start a slight "frown" curve - highs and lows start to sag off. 2/ THD - this is the big one. It will increase/decrease THD depending on the setting. There's a handy-dandy reference guide we engrave into the bottom of the PSU. See below image. If you start to push the tube beyond its stock voltage, this actually increases the THD a bit as well, but on the 3rd-order harmonic rather than the 2nd-order. It's hitting the xformer harder. I'm going to try to make a video of the various states with a signal injection approximating 1 Pascal. We did something similar to it in Matt's video using his monitors and a 1kHz injected signal, but that's not quite the same as a sine sweep. 3/ OUTPUT - this is the part we put on the front knob after much debate - it tells you how much makeup gain/trim you'll need for the various tube voltage states. 4/ the sag will also change transient response to high-volume sources.
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 26, 2024 10:03:28 GMT -6
One thing to note: Tube mics, by nature, have more THD than a FET mic. That's part of why we dig the sound!
A typical 251/C12/C24 should be measure between 65-80V around the plate. Thus the "high and low" operating points listed on the chart above. These are indicated by the larger dots on the knob.
In theory you could push the tube much higher but it would require a change to the PSU transformer to supply the higher voltage of 200V+. When Matt and I were testing the PSU was maxed around 140V, which is the highest setting shown on the chart there (the tube supply line brings it down to around 105V at the plate.)
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 26, 2024 10:04:24 GMT -6
The red looks nice. if I had to have 2 different colors though I'd probably reverse it and put the black one on pattern, and the red on voltage (just how my mind works). But with the matching red screws, maybe just keep it all red? We might just ship it with a spare black knob so people can choose and have the reds attached standard. I already have them in the shop, doesn't make sense to just let them molder!
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Post by chessparov on Aug 26, 2024 13:42:12 GMT -6
Pink ones for Sylvia Massy though. Except for Chili Pepper stuff.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,059
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Post by ericn on Aug 26, 2024 13:48:43 GMT -6
Pink ones for Sylvia Massy though. Except for Chili Pepper stuff. Just no Brown ones😁
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 26, 2024 14:06:48 GMT -6
Pink ones for Sylvia Massy though. Except for Chili Pepper stuff. funny thing about anodizing is color matching is hard. I remember when we got the first avantone active mixcubes Ken wanted red anodized heat fins. They came in, but they were bubble-gum pink
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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 8, 2024 23:45:22 GMT -6
Pink ones for Sylvia Massy though. Except for Chili Pepper stuff. funny thing about anodizing is color matching is hard. I remember when we got the first avantone active mixcubes Ken wanted red anodized heat fins. They came in, but they were bubble-gum pink and red is just about the hardest color to match, unfortunately...
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Sept 9, 2024 9:02:55 GMT -6
funny thing about anodizing is color matching is hard. I remember when we got the first avantone active mixcubes Ken wanted red anodized heat fins. They came in, but they were bubble-gum pink and red is just about the hardest color to match, unfortunately... that i did not know! I suspect there's some sort of chemical reason for it.
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Post by Ward on Sept 12, 2024 9:43:00 GMT -6
Pink ones for Sylvia Massy though. Except for Chili Pepper stuff. what about the Hot Pink Chili Peppers ?
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