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Post by svart on Aug 16, 2024 7:25:53 GMT -6
what do you use for output and such (obviously the 24ao is the companion... but no headphone/monitor controls). The 828ES looks like it would be a good match (if it is supported and anybody ever has stock again?). I have both the 828es and the 24ao for stuff as well. I generally use the 828es for DI and talkback mic input (front panel inputs) and then use the 8x analog outputs to my hearback system and the digital outputs for my KH310D monitors and the main analog outs for my NS10s. I also use the 828es as the "base" for the AVB connections for the 24ai and 24ao, but I've used the 24ai standalone too. I really like the MOTU stuff. I came from an SSL Alphalink/Mixpander system which I loved but SSL saw fit to EOL it without notice and left me hanging, so I dumped them and went MOTU. So far it's been a few trouble-free years with their stuff. The ONLY gripe is that damn confusing routing matrix, but once you have it working you never really need to mess with it again. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 16, 2024 19:52:45 GMT -6
doubledog I have both the 24ao and ai as well. Works great for me, easy to set up. At my tracking space I use the 24ai/o teamed up with the Ultralite AVB. I'm running my 24ch console through the 24ai/o and then the sends and stuff from the console through the Ultralite as well as to a cheap Art headphone mixer. I also have the 828es in my mixing studio. At some point I'm thinking about switching the 828es and the Ultralite so that I can use TB with the 24ai/o and get 96khz but I just don't feel like it so obviously it doesn't matter much to me. Anyway, you're in my neck of the woods, you're welcome to pop over and take a look at the setup to get a feel for it. I've never had so much as a hiccup with the 24 i/o, I forget they're there.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 17, 2024 9:10:36 GMT -6
doubledog I have both the 24ao and ai as well. Works great for me, easy to set up. At my tracking space I use the 24ai/o teamed up with the Ultralite AVB. I'm running my 24ch console through the 24ai/o and then the sends and stuff from the console through the Ultralite as well as to a cheap Art headphone mixer. I also have the 828es in my mixing studio. At some point I'm thinking about switching the 828es and the Ultralite so that I can use TB with the 24ai/o and get 96khz but I just don't feel like it so obviously it doesn't matter much to me. Anyway, you're in my neck of the woods, you're welcome to pop over and take a look at the setup to get a feel for it. I've never had so much as a hiccup with the 24 i/o, I forget they're there. just thinking about this more... so are you saying that you cannot get all of the I/O to work at 96KHz currently (that's over USB I assume?). The MOTU site seems to indicate that 32 I/O should be possible at 96KHz over USB, and 24 @ 192KHz. I don't have TB, so I'd be using USB (and the 24ai has USB 2.0 connection) but that would be a deal breaker for me if it did not work at 96KHz (or higher). But at the same time, I'd only be doing 24 inputs and usually no more than 10 outputs simultaneously (monitor and some headphone cues). If I was going back out to outboard it would usually be a pair of tracks or so at a time (to process an existing track). I'm not connected to a console. I know the Antelope Orion 32's are able to do 24 I/O over USB 2.0 and most report are pretty stable (but not always all 32 - then again I wonder if that is going to a console so it's the full 32in/32out simultaneously?). still pondering these questions... I emailed MOTU to ask as well... |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 17, 2024 13:17:04 GMT -6
doubledog I have both the 24ao and ai as well. Works great for me, easy to set up. At my tracking space I use the 24ai/o teamed up with the Ultralite AVB. I'm running my 24ch console through the 24ai/o and then the sends and stuff from the console through the Ultralite as well as to a cheap Art headphone mixer. I also have the 828es in my mixing studio. At some point I'm thinking about switching the 828es and the Ultralite so that I can use TB with the 24ai/o and get 96khz but I just don't feel like it so obviously it doesn't matter much to me. Anyway, you're in my neck of the woods, you're welcome to pop over and take a look at the setup to get a feel for it. I've never had so much as a hiccup with the 24 i/o, I forget they're there. just thinking about this more... so are you saying that you cannot get all of the I/O to work at 96KHz currently (that's over USB I assume?). The MOTU site seems to indicate that 32 I/O should be possible at 96KHz over USB, and 24 @ 192KHz. I don't have TB, so I'd be using USB (and the 24ai has USB 2.0 connection) but that would be a deal breaker for me if it did not work at 96KHz (or higher). But at the same time, I'd only be doing 24 inputs and usually no more than 10 outputs simultaneously (monitor and some headphone cues). If I was going back out to outboard it would usually be a pair of tracks or so at a time (to process an existing track). I'm not connected to a console. I know the Antelope Orion 32's are able to do 24 I/O over USB 2.0 and most report are pretty stable (but not always all 32 - then again I wonder if that is going to a console so it's the full 32in/32out simultaneously?). still pondering these questions... I emailed MOTU to ask as well... You know what? It never occurred to me to take one of the 24's in via USB. I connect them through the Ultralite which may be more limited. Let me know what they tell you! That would be just a matter of swapping a few cables around for me. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 17, 2024 14:00:59 GMT -6
just thinking about this more... so are you saying that you cannot get all of the I/O to work at 96KHz currently (that's over USB I assume?). The MOTU site seems to indicate that 32 I/O should be possible at 96KHz over USB, and 24 @ 192KHz. I don't have TB, so I'd be using USB (and the 24ai has USB 2.0 connection) but that would be a deal breaker for me if it did not work at 96KHz (or higher). But at the same time, I'd only be doing 24 inputs and usually no more than 10 outputs simultaneously (monitor and some headphone cues). If I was going back out to outboard it would usually be a pair of tracks or so at a time (to process an existing track). I'm not connected to a console. I know the Antelope Orion 32's are able to do 24 I/O over USB 2.0 and most report are pretty stable (but not always all 32 - then again I wonder if that is going to a console so it's the full 32in/32out simultaneously?). still pondering these questions... I emailed MOTU to ask as well... You know what? It never occurred to me to take one of the 24's in via USB. I connect them through the Ultralite which may be more limited. Let me know what they tell you! That would be just a matter of swapping a few cables around for me. Ok duh... now I'm remembering my problem and also double checked some specs. I think I have a solution for myself and I also think that you're all set. Let's start with you. Of COURSE the 24AO and 24AI can do 24 channels at 2x rates with USB, they are USB only and don't even have Thunderbolt. Anyway, checked and verified. Sorry if I added confusion. There is however a limitation on the MOTU Ultralite. That is that it can only support 3 AVB streams if it is serving as the interface and only 2 streams at 2x rates. Each stream is 8 channels so that means that with Ultralite as my interface (as I have been doing) I would have been limited to 16 I/O at 96khz. However thanks to this thread I now realize that the 24AO and AI are also interfaces (never used them that way, forgot they could tbh) and they also support more network streams. They both support 32 I/O at 2x rates. I also run my UA 4-710 on this setup so this means I could definitely run 96khz if I wanted to with some moderate repatching. Well crap... now that this means I wouldn't have to buy anything or replace anything or even re-rack anything to do 96khz it re-opens that can of worms. Still, the greatest value in higher rates (to me) is lower latency and I'm already monitoring through the console so it kind of doesn't matter. |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 17, 2024 14:08:28 GMT -6
yeah, seems like some adjusting to the routing matrix (to send back to the right usb port to the DAW) and you could just designate one of the 24's as your main interface?
and while it's hard to prove scientifically that the same mix sounds better at 96 vs 44/48 (unless you re-record everything twice... ) I DO find that mixes with more than say 16 tracks sound better - or at least seem to come together as a mix easier - than 44/48. It might be worth trying some time.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 17, 2024 14:12:08 GMT -6
yeah, seems like some adjusting to the routing matrix (to send back to the right usb port to the DAW) and you could just designate one of the 24's as your main interface? and while it's hard to prove scientifically that the same mix sounds better at 96 vs 44/48 (unless you re-record everything twice... ) I DO find that mixes with more than say 10 tracks sound better - or at least seem to come together as a mix easier - than 44/48. It might be worth trying some time. Yeah, I've got a bunch of projects coming up in the next few weeks so maybe after that passes I'll do some repatching. All I'll need to do in the tracking room is grab an extra ADAT cable for the 4-710 and then swap the USB out to the 24 AI instead. Actually, maybe I'll just do that this weekend and then I can have the option. I wish it was easier to A/B this type of thing. The biggest concern for me with 96khz is not hard drive space but bogging down my system at mix time. Some of the plugins I'm using are really resource heavy. Although now that I think about it, I think they're mainly resource heavy because I'm using oversampling. If I was at 96khz I could, in theory, use less oversampling right? Paging Dan |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 21, 2024 21:26:19 GMT -6
I kind of got my eye on (maybe a used) Antelope Orion 32+ (and before you say they suck, I have an Apollo 16 and the story is getting similar right?). I like the idea of 24-32 I/O over USB (but it also has ADAT, TB and MADI if I need it). Seems to make the most sense for my setup right now. The 32+ is more attractive for me because of the FPGA (sorta like DSP) effects - mainly I just want to put reverb in some headphones while racking - but if I had to I have a workaround). I never track with the DSP plugins on the Apollo anymore (once I realized you can still overload your converters on the way in even though the plugin makes the levels look fine)
I was thinking maybe a used (original version) Dangerous D-box for monitor control. Seems like a good combo, although I worry about any pots that are not just digital controls (like the volume knob on the Apollo 16). Right now my Apollo 16 uses 1 rack unit, and I have a DIY monitor switcher using another 1U . I always through about replacing that but it's worked great so... but now I might need something with a volume control too.
anyway, for those of you using an Orion NOT connected to a console, what do you use for monitor control (volume knob, switching between monitors, maybe even a headphone jack?)
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Post by bentley on Aug 21, 2024 23:33:54 GMT -6
I kind of got my eye on (maybe a used) Antelope Orion 32+ (and before you say they suck, I have an Apollo 16 and the story is getting similar right?). I like the idea of 24-32 I/O over USB (but it also has ADAT, TB and MADI if I need it). Seems to make the most sense for my setup right now. The 32+ is more attractive for me because of the FPGA (sorta like DSP) effects - mainly I just want to put reverb in some headphones while racking - but if I had to I have a workaround). I never track with the DSP plugins on the Apollo anymore (once I realized you can still overload your converters on the way in even though the plugin makes the levels look fine) I was thinking maybe a used (original version) Dangerous D-box for monitor control. Seems like a good combo, although I worry about any pots that are not just digital controls (like the volume knob on the Apollo 16). Right now my Apollo 16 uses 1 rack unit, and I have a DIY monitor switcher using another 1U . I always through about replacing that but it's worked great so... but now I might need something with a volume control too. anyway, for those of you using an Orion NOT connected to a console, what do you use for monitor control (volume knob, switching between monitors, maybe even a headphone jack?) Using a Galaxy 32 here with a Dangerous ST. Sometimes via TB, sometimes via HDX. No issues to speak of and all the connectivity I could ever need. ANtelope control panels are a bit of a pain in the ass but once you wrap your head around it it's insanely flexible. |
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Post by knucklehead89 on Aug 22, 2024 10:08:32 GMT -6
Antelope Orion 32+. I have Gen3. Yessss it did take a few days to get it up and running with the drivers etc. but man I don’t think anything touches these at or slightly above the price point. And it’s been rock solid since the initial setup
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Post by sam on Aug 22, 2024 10:38:57 GMT -6
I went from the MOTU 16a to an Apollo X6 and while I love the convenience of Apollo stuff, I really do miss the sound of the 16a. The nice thing about the 16a is that they are relatively cheap used and they can cascade, so you can probably snag two for the price of any of the other interfaces you listed. However if you really don’t need all the outs, sacrificing two for monitors never seemed like a big deal to me, and I used to mix hybrid with the 16a
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 22, 2024 12:51:46 GMT -6
I went from the MOTU 16a to an Apollo X6 and while I love the convenience of Apollo stuff, I really do miss the sound of the 16a. The nice thing about the 16a is that they are relatively cheap used and they can cascade, so you can probably snag two for the price of any of the other interfaces you listed. However if you really don’t need all the outs, sacrificing two for monitors never seemed like a big deal to me, and I used to mix hybrid with the 16a AVB is why I got into the MOTU world the expandability. I went in the opposite direction as you, moved away from Apollo because I realized I was basically only using the conversion and the I/O and very little of the DSP and none of the preamps, so why pay for those things? Anyway, really seems like 16a or a pair of 24AI and AO fits the bill here. |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 22, 2024 14:19:01 GMT -6
Unfortunately MOTU can't keep anything in stock. I think it's still a result of the AKM fire back in 2020 (chip plant that makes many converters). I also emailed their pre-sales, who put in a support ticket for me, and it's gone unanswered all week. I was just asking if I could reliably get at least 24 (or more) I/O over USB. So they don't appear interested in selling them anyway.
and same thing for me on the Apollo DSP. I also have a UAD2 quad PCIe card so I will keep my plugins on that for when I do use them.
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2024 8:12:02 GMT -6
Unfortunately MOTU can't keep anything in stock. I think it's still a result of the AKM fire back in 2020 (chip plant that makes many converters). I also emailed their pre-sales, who put in a support ticket for me, and it's gone unanswered all week. I was just asking if I could reliably get at least 24 (or more) I/O over USB. So they don't appear interested in selling them anyway. and same thing for me on the Apollo DSP. I also have a UAD2 quad PCIe card so I will keep my plugins on that for when I do use them. Well I use my 24ai/ao through AVB to the 828es and the 828es to my computer via USB and I have more than 24 channels going sometimes, so I would say that yes you can have more than 24x I/O over USB. However, looking at their FAQ it says 32x audio streams over USB2 at 88.2/96K or 64x streams over USB2 at 44.1/48K. Or 128 streams up to 96K over Thunderbolt/USB3. motu.com/avb/avb-faq |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 23, 2024 10:36:03 GMT -6
glad to hear it can work. Motu finally replied as well (sounds like my ticket got lost for whatever reason). Anyway they also confirmed it should work. Now all I have to do is wait for them to be in stock again and it may be an option for me.
I've kind of narrowed it down to the Orion 32+ (a used one may fit my budget) which would give me 32 I/O, but then I'd have to get a Dangerous D-box or something like that (maybe a Coleman M3PH, but since the founder/owner passed, it looks like they may be done?).
Or, the Motu 828es (which would give me monitor control, a couple more headphone jacks, and a few outputs for headphone mixes) and then AVB that to either a 16A or a 24ai. The 16A has better specs on the line inputs for some reason, but the 24ai is pretty good (but actually not as good as my current Apollo 16 specs out). The DB-25 connectors would be more seamless in my current setup and they actually exist in stock at some places...
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2024 11:41:30 GMT -6
glad to hear it can work. Motu finally replied as well (sounds like my ticket got lost for whatever reason). Anyway they also confirmed it should work. Now all I have to do is wait for them to be in stock again and it may be an option for me. I've kind of narrowed it down to the Orion 32+ (a used one may fit my budget) which would give me 32 I/O, but then I'd have to get a Dangerous D-box or something like that (maybe a Coleman M3PH, but since the founder/owner passed, it looks like they may be done?). Or, the Motu 828es (which would give me monitor control, a couple more headphone jacks, and a few outputs for headphone mixes) and then AVB that to either a 16A or a 24ai. The 16A has better specs on the line inputs for some reason, but the 24ai is pretty good (but actually not as good as my current Apollo 16 specs out). The DB-25 connectors would be more seamless in my current setup and they actually exist in stock at some places... Someone has an 828es for sale in the classifieds. Good price too. I see used 24ai on Ebay and Reverb as well. I came from an SSL Alphalink which sort-of had better specs but I can say that I like the MOTU a bit better. I wouldn't worry about the specs very much. I don't even notice a "sound" from them like you get from some others like the Apollos. You can also go straight from the 828es to the 24ai through a single CAT5 cable without an AVB router if you don't want to buy one right away. |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 23, 2024 12:04:39 GMT -6
I don't even notice a "sound" from them like you get from some others like the Apollos. You can also go straight from the 828es to the 24ai through a single CAT5 cable without an AVB router if you don't want to buy one right away. good to hear on the "sound", although my Apollo is the 16 so all line-outs and I don't think it maybe has as much of a defined "sound" as some other Apollos that have pres built in (that you can't remove from the circuit). And yeah, I would just run point-to-point if I did it - no plans to expand beyond 2 units. |
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Post by sam on Aug 24, 2024 8:29:06 GMT -6
I don't even notice a "sound" from them like you get from some others like the Apollos. You can also go straight from the 828es to the 24ai through a single CAT5 cable without an AVB router if you don't want to buy one right away. good to hear on the "sound", although my Apollo is the 16 so all line-outs and I don't think it maybe has as much of a defined "sound" as some other Apollos that have pres built in (that you can't remove from the circuit). And yeah, I would just run point-to-point if I did it - no plans to expand beyond 2 units. You can fully bypass the pres in any rack Apollo. They are fully taken out of the circuit |
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Post by Dan on Aug 24, 2024 11:31:20 GMT -6
The MOTU inputs have much more of a sound than the Apollo inputs. The use worse components that do produce distortion and do have a sound. The MOTU outputs use lower end sabre chips but LME opamp based circuitry on their better units that are a good deal cleaner than the inputs. I find the MOTU AVB outputs to be a little more even than the Apollo outputs but that is all negated by the lack of distributor availability and the inputs being more colored if you're recording through it or looping back through it. I didn't like what hardware inserts sounded like on my boxed up AVB rig. The loopback lost details and imposed a timbre compared to the straight output, unlike Apogee and Lynx.
They are both noticeably more colored than current Apogee and Lynx units to me. Especially the Hilo and the newer Symphony SE (they now have a 16 channel card) and Desktop converters. The buy in price is more expensive than with UAD Apollo but a fully tricked out 32i/o channel Aurora N or Symphony II SE is cheaper than 2 UAD Apollo 16x because UAD has all the SHARC DSP chips (each X16 has 6 SHARC chips and 2 FPGAs) they put in the Apollos and has to pay cargo costs from China.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 29, 2024 8:57:46 GMT -6
posted this in another thread, but it kinda goes here too...
Just pulled the trigger on an Antelope Orion 32+ Gen4 with the MRC controller. It was a lot more than I originally intended to spend, but I'm hoping it will last the next 15 years (like my Apollo 16 has done for me for the past 15...). Sweetwater Gear Exchange had 10% off (on selected items) Labor Day sale running, and I've been contemplating this purchase for awhile now and it felt like I needed to jump (even though I also feel a bit nervous tearing out the core of my studio....). This one was marked "used" (excellent condition) although its coming from a seller that seems to be selling a bunch of new and used Antelope Audio gear (appears to be official b-stock) but while it was significantly cheaper than new, it was still kind of outside the top range of my intended budget. anyway hoping I will like it! I'll of course report back after some time with it...
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Post by Quint on Nov 18, 2024 15:26:20 GMT -6
RME Digiface Dante and use whatever. You could even hook up an Apogee Symphony II 16 SE to it on windows and defeat the Dante clock with asrc converters. There’s also Focusrite Rednet, Burl, anything you want. RME Madiface XT or UFX III plus a good MADI converter. Ferrofish A32 Pro ditches the prosumer circuitry in the Pulse 16. There’s also SPL Madison for cheap warmth that’s not as detail killing as the MOTU AD. Lynx Aurora (N) over the standard thesyscon xmos chipset drivers. Can you elaborate on what the differences are between the Ferrofish A32 Pro and Pulse 16, as far as "producer circuitry" is concerned? I'm kicking around getting a Pulse or A32 Pro. Also, I've seen you speak in positive terms about the SPL Madison. What specifically do you like about its design over some of the other converters out there? |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 18, 2024 15:43:11 GMT -6
RME Digiface Dante and use whatever. You could even hook up an Apogee Symphony II 16 SE to it on windows and defeat the Dante clock with asrc converters. There’s also Focusrite Rednet, Burl, anything you want. RME Madiface XT or UFX III plus a good MADI converter. Ferrofish A32 Pro ditches the prosumer circuitry in the Pulse 16. There’s also SPL Madison for cheap warmth that’s not as detail killing as the MOTU AD. Lynx Aurora (N) over the standard thesyscon xmos chipset drivers. Can you elaborate on what the differences are between the Ferrofish A32 Pro and Pulse 16, as far as "producer circuitry" is concerned? I'm kicking around getting a Pulse or A32 Pro. Also, I've seen you speak in positive terms about the SPL Madison. What specifically do you like about its design over some of the other converters out there? Quint if you can’t get a demo of the Pulse 16 and A32Pro then I strongly suggest you reach out to Ferrofish as I did. Ferrofish is run by a couple of super enthusiastic guys - they manufacture in Germany and make great kit. I asked these questions - asked for detailed specifications and got real world honest replies. Email Ferrofish and ask your questions direct to the guys who make the products. I had the budget for their very top end Dante A32 Pro and yet after I described my intended use and set up got the advice to buy the Ferrofish Pulse 16. Does it sound as detailed on the stereo mix bus as my HEDD 192 - no (stereo spacial information exposes the difference between converters) Was I able to double blind ABX pick out the difference between the Pulse 16 and my Cranesong Converters on mono tracks or tracking electric guitars for example - no - I personally couldn’t. So take from that what you want. I use the Pulse for monitoring and some hybrid mixing duties and for tracking eveything except vocals, bass and acoustic guitar where I do use the HEDD 192. Also for mixing the stereo mix bus get the HEDD 192. I think a great way forward for a modern project studio is a mastering quality stereo converters like a HEDD 192 or Lynx Hilo and another workhouse converters for monitoring and some hybrid mixing and general tracking/ instrument DI like hardware synths and drums machines etc. Best of both worlds without totally breaking the bank :-) Email Ferrofish or better still, if you can get these two units in your studio and do some proper double blind ABX testing - you might be surprised  |
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 20, 2024 13:41:17 GMT -6
RME Digiface Dante and use whatever. You could even hook up an Apogee Symphony II 16 SE to it on windows and defeat the Dante clock with asrc converters. There’s also Focusrite Rednet, Burl, anything you want. RME Madiface XT or UFX III plus a good MADI converter. Ferrofish A32 Pro ditches the prosumer circuitry in the Pulse 16. There’s also SPL Madison for cheap warmth that’s not as detail killing as the MOTU AD. Lynx Aurora (N) over the standard thesyscon xmos chipset drivers. Can you elaborate on what the differences are between the Ferrofish A32 Pro and Pulse 16, as far as "producer circuitry" is concerned? I'm kicking around getting a Pulse or A32 Pro. Also, I've seen you speak in positive terms about the SPL Madison. What specifically do you like about its design over some of the other converters out there? I was curious about SPL Madison and found this review in German. (translated by google): www-proaudio-de.translate.goog/tests/spl-madison?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wappInnards look kinda meh:  The relevant details: "There was no skimping on high-quality components either. The AD-DA converters used are 24-bit dual converters AKM4621EF with switched capacitor filters, which also have symmetrical inputs and outputs. The analog section uses symmetrical drivers from THAT, which are among the best on the market. The input impedances of the +/- inputs are identical for the THAT drivers. The clock processing works without a PLL and is designed for minimal jitter, which promises good THD values. A switching power supply supplies the analog section with an operating voltage of +/- 18 volts. Even though there is nothing about this in the manual, you can see that there is already space for a redundant power supply. The Madison is obviously already prepared accordingly, which should particularly please users in the broadcast sector." So, I like that it uses AKM chips and not just another ESS Sabre based converter like so many these days that my ear doesn't care for. But of course those THAT drivers probably place it in a lower class range than its price suggests. |
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 20, 2024 14:11:23 GMT -6
In the "mid level" price range there are many converters that probably fall well short of the Black Lion Revolution EXP 8x8 which uses Cirrus Logic chips for conversion. I would rather deal with ADAT via an RME ADAT interface and get something that looks like a professional work of art on the inside... here is the 6x6 innards which are similar to the 8x8:  |
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