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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2024 17:59:12 GMT -6
Hey, Anyone have experience with both of these? They are schematically identical xcept the psu, the SCA 500 uses a voltage doubler config to get it from 16vdc to 24vdc, where the 19" rack mount John Hardy twin servo has it's own 24v supply, i do have 51x 500 series boxes from capi that feed 24vdc as well as 16vdc, so i could jump the voltage doubler section of the SCA 500 straight to 24vdc, the cost difference for 4 channels of SCA vs JH is sub $2k vs $4k+, not a small "differential"(awesome geek jokeš) if they are on par with one another any experience hearing both of these? www.seventhcircleaudio.com/product-page/sca-j99-500-series-microphone-preamp-module-sc90www.johnhardyco.com/JTS990Details.html
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 24, 2024 19:08:02 GMT -6
Pretty certain, there was someone here a few months ago who had both and said they were very similar: letās see, if they chime in and if I got that right ?
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Post by sean on Jul 24, 2024 19:08:24 GMT -6
No experience with the 7th Circle Audio 500 series stuff but thereās also the Radial Twin Servo, which has Jensen input and output transformers like the Hardy
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 25, 2024 10:21:31 GMT -6
In summary answering my own question Iād say this, if you have cash get the 19ā racked twin servo, slightly more output, headroom, dynamic range due to 24v rails and larger OPT. I searched for this yesterday and came up with nothing, I swore I remembered it and searched again today and found the old thread with J Hardy explaining just about everythingā¦., so here it isā¦ realgearonline.com/thread/4130/john-hardy-500-series?page=1
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 25, 2024 10:34:27 GMT -6
I have the rack mount two channel Hardy Twin Servo, it's the "Sony edition" which has the switched gain settings for precision matching: nice to have but standard potentiometer version probably great too.
I actually bought it used from somebody on RGO (who has years of experience with them for classical work) - I really like mine. Not much to it though, it's basically just not-boring not-clinical but clean gain. No regret buying it on my part. I don't think Hardy himself ever actually released a 500 series version. Unfortunately, I have no experience with the other 500 series Twin-Servo options from Radial, etc. - first step is getting those super high-end transformers from Jensen and you can buy after market (legit) Hardy 990 opamps but if you're going that far it seems reasonable to just trust John Hardy's attention to detail when it comes to the power-supply design, PCB, etc. and go full in. Just my opinion, of course.
I have heard rumors that they are harder to buy new these days though - unconfirmed.
-Chris
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 25, 2024 11:20:05 GMT -6
I have the rack mount two channel Hardy Twin Servo, it's the "Sony edition" which has the switched gain settings for precision matching: nice to have but standard potentiometer version probably great too. I actually bought it used from somebody on RGO (who has years of experience with them for classical work) - I really like mine. Not much to it though, it's basically just not-boring not-clinical but clean gain. No regret buying it on my part. I don't think Hardy himself ever actually released a 500 series version. Unfortunately, I have no experience with the other 500 series Twin-Servo options from Radial, etc. - first step is getting those super high-end transformers from Jensen and you can buy after market (legit) Hardy 990 opamps but if you're going that far it seems reasonable to just trust John Hardy's attention to detail when it comes to the power-supply design, PCB, etc. and go full in. Just my opinion, of course. I have heard rumors that they are harder to buy new these days though - unconfirmed. -Chris I believe John is now making and winding his own input and output transformers, Jensen was sold and supply became an issue for them leading to delays in builds and delivery, I read JH is excited about the quality of his new transformers
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Post by Dan on Jul 25, 2024 12:13:25 GMT -6
I have the rack mount two channel Hardy Twin Servo, it's the "Sony edition" which has the switched gain settings for precision matching: nice to have but standard potentiometer version probably great too. I actually bought it used from somebody on RGO (who has years of experience with them for classical work) - I really like mine. Not much to it though, it's basically just not-boring not-clinical but clean gain. No regret buying it on my part. I don't think Hardy himself ever actually released a 500 series version. Unfortunately, I have no experience with the other 500 series Twin-Servo options from Radial, etc. - first step is getting those super high-end transformers from Jensen and you can buy after market (legit) Hardy 990 opamps but if you're going that far it seems reasonable to just trust John Hardy's attention to detail when it comes to the power-supply design, PCB, etc. and go full in. Just my opinion, of course. I have heard rumors that they are harder to buy new these days though - unconfirmed. -Chris I believe John is now making and winding his own input and output transformers, Jensen was sold and supply became an issue for them leading to delays in builds and delivery, I read JH is excited about the quality of his new transformers Radial was Jensen's biggest customer and bought Jensen and then Radial was bought by Regimen Equity Partners, who like typical private equity dingbats jacked up the price to cover their cost of purchase, causing them to lose a lot of business. I guess to try to sell transformer DIs to every bedroom musician but active dis are better and most of the bedroom guys are DIing into an interface or playing fleawatt amps.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 25, 2024 12:33:30 GMT -6
I believe John is now making and winding his own input and output transformers, Jensen was sold and supply became an issue for them leading to delays in builds and delivery, I read JH is excited about the quality of his new transformers Radial was Jensen's biggest customer ā¦... Hereās a quote āI am pleased to announce that The John Hardy Company is now manufacturing the model 16C mic input transformer and 11C line output transformer. These transformers are now being used in the M-1, M-2 and Jensen Twin Servo 990 Mic Preamps of The John Hardy Company. The 16C and 11C replace the Jensen JT-16-B and JT-11-BM transformers respectively. The 16C and 11C are built to the exact specifications of the Jensen models. The John Hardy Company experienced long delivery delays from Jensen Transformers that started in June of 2012 and lasted for a year. There were more delays in 2018, 2020 and beyond. The ownership of Jensen Transformers, Inc., has changed hands twice since 2014. In late 2023 they moved their entire operation from Chatsworth, California to Vancouver, British Columbia. It was time to make my own transformers right here at The John Hardy Company to eliminate costly delays and to guarantee the highest quality.ā Attachments:
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2024 12:54:51 GMT -6
Radial was Jensen's biggest customer ā¦... Hereās a quote āI am pleased to announce that The John Hardy Company is now manufacturing the model 16C mic input transformer and 11C line output transformer. These transformers are now being used in the M-1, M-2 and Jensen Twin Servo 990 Mic Preamps of The John Hardy Company. The 16C and 11C replace the Jensen JT-16-B and JT-11-BM transformers respectively. The 16C and 11C are built to the exact specifications of the Jensen models. The John Hardy Company experienced long delivery delays from Jensen Transformers that started in June of 2012 and lasted for a year. There were more delays in 2018, 2020 and beyond. The ownership of Jensen Transformers, Inc., has changed hands twice since 2014. In late 2023 they moved their entire operation from Chatsworth, California to Vancouver, British Columbia. It was time to make my own transformers right here at The John Hardy Company to eliminate costly delays and to guarantee the highest quality.ā Jensen was never quick, actually I know quite a few who feel back when they had OEMās winding to their specs they were quicker. I do wonder how many who are now using ā their own transformersā have specād a slight change to stock Jensen & have an OEM winding them. Good winding machines are not cheap.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2024 12:58:01 GMT -6
Oh yeah one of the biggest issues with all the 7th circle stuff, no meter. I know a live guy who was going to build 12 of their Mileniua clone, he is going 200 series not because he can fit 12 in 2 rack u but because he gets a signal present and clip LED.
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Post by Dan on Jul 25, 2024 16:25:03 GMT -6
Radial was Jensen's biggest customer ā¦... Hereās a quote āI am pleased to announce that The John Hardy Company is now manufacturing the model 16C mic input transformer and 11C line output transformer. These transformers are now being used in the M-1, M-2 and Jensen Twin Servo 990 Mic Preamps of The John Hardy Company. The 16C and 11C replace the Jensen JT-16-B and JT-11-BM transformers respectively. The 16C and 11C are built to the exact specifications of the Jensen models. The John Hardy Company experienced long delivery delays from Jensen Transformers that started in June of 2012 and lasted for a year. There were more delays in 2018, 2020 and beyond. The ownership of Jensen Transformers, Inc., has changed hands twice since 2014. In late 2023 they moved their entire operation from Chatsworth, California to Vancouver, British Columbia. It was time to make my own transformers right here at The John Hardy Company to eliminate costly delays and to guarantee the highest quality.ā Another failure of the us government to prevent offshoring, costing Americans real jobs and livelihoods to enrich someone in a suit somewhere. I hope their former employees start something like Austrian Audio that does it better.
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 25, 2024 20:49:04 GMT -6
Didnāt realize about John Hardy now implementing the transformers themselvesā¦those two models (for input and output) have really nice specs, not an easy task, Iād imagine. Thanks for the info!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2024 20:55:53 GMT -6
Didnāt realize about John Hardy now implementing the transformers themselvesā¦those two models (for input and output) have really nice specs, not an easy task, Iād imagine. Thanks for the info! Of course the existential question is since this also applies to the Jensen pre is it still a Jensen if the transformer isnāt a Jensen?
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 25, 2024 21:00:22 GMT -6
Ha ha, who knows. Hereās my thought: if Deane Jensen trusted John Hardy enough to let him manufacture his discrete opamp (the 990, can even read his old AES paper about the design) then maybe itās reasonable to assume that if anybody else was capable of truly getting the transformers right, maybe itās also John Hardy. :-)
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 25, 2024 21:14:27 GMT -6
š enjoy!
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 26, 2024 7:47:17 GMT -6
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 26, 2024 7:57:05 GMT -6
Also, hereās a video of him giving some history about his involvement with Deane Jensenās design:
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Post by mcirish on Jul 26, 2024 9:53:26 GMT -6
I kind of wish I had the dual servo. I've got a four channel M1 with Jensen output transformers. That preamp never sounds bad on anything. It just doesn't have the gain for ribbon mics. That's where I'd use the dual servo.
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 26, 2024 12:38:36 GMT -6
I've never A/B'ed the M1/M2 vs. Twin Servo but I'd imagine they are probably quite similar sounding pres. Part of my reason for buying the Twin Servo specifically was just my appreciation of the circuit from my university days - it's hard to say if there is any serious audible difference between them, especially at lower gain levels (where the servo more or less avoids the use of a coupling capacitor EDIT: both M1/M2 and Twin-Servo employ servo circuit to remove offset - they are seemingly very similar aside from number of stages).
No complaints about the Twin Servo on my end, but if a low-channel count version of the M1 or M2 came up locally (used) at a reasonable price, I'd be very tempted. Would be interesting to compare.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 26, 2024 14:22:33 GMT -6
The development of the 990 amp with it's 600 ohm ideal matching input impedance allowed this matchup to happen, which conveniently solves the problem of loud sources and hot mics too, since there's not much transformer gain. The rack versions with 27dBm rating are basically line amps if you want to use them that way, nice low minimum gain setting available.
Ribbon mics? I dunno, much to be said for a high ratio step-up transformer in that case, since it's 'free' gain, which often out-competes a low ratio transformer or transformerless type pre for noise, even if the high ratio is some old crusty tube thing with 'terrible' noise specs on paper. Classic Neve isn't really made for ribbons either.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Hairball Gold 500, another Hardy/990 type.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 26, 2024 20:15:04 GMT -6
Ribbon mics? I dunno, much to be said for a high ratio step-up transformer in that case, since it's 'free' gain, which often out-competes a low ratio transformer or transformerless type pre for noise, even if the high ratio is some old crusty tube thing with 'terrible' noise specs I know you have a lot of experience with ribbons and old school transformer based everything, can you recommend a pre for ribbons that kicks but? Also, Isn't a differential pre with 78db of gain with no caps in the signal path close to a "free pass" regardless of trans ratio?
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Post by ironinthepath on Jul 26, 2024 22:56:00 GMT -6
I canāt speak for others but the Gordon Model 5 mic pre has been my go-to for ribbon mics. The impedance is quite high but the pre meant to be remote near mic for use with short XLR cable: Iāve not found the amount of gain lacking.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 27, 2024 6:48:22 GMT -6
I canāt necessarily recommend anything for ribbons because I donāt own anything thatās readily available, only old crusty stuff. Just saying it works well and frequently outperforms others because of the transformer gain - as opposed to the Hardyās advantage with high gain mics.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 27, 2024 6:49:47 GMT -6
I canāt speak for others but the Gordon Model 5 mic pre has been my go-to for ribbon mics. The impedance is quite high but the pre meant to be remote near mic for use with short XLR cable: Iāve not found the amount of gain lacking. Iād like to try a Gordon, though probably never in budget.
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Post by sean on Jul 27, 2024 7:01:41 GMT -6
The Gordonās are very nice, I have a few friends around town that own them. But, yes, very pricey.
A different friend let me borrow a pair of Upstate Audio Sonic Lens preamps, which Iāve only seen Al Schmitt ever use, so excited to give them a try.
But, to be honest, I donāt get crazy excited about preamps š¤£
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