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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2024 9:26:25 GMT -6
The tone of two signals set up this way?
1. Mic into pre at -30db of gain
Or
2. Mic into -20db in-line attenuator into mic pre at -50db gain
I still sometimes hear a little hair in my vocals…it’s saturation. Wondering if hitting the pre less hot will open up some headroom. It’s not distorting/over or anything - I’m just saying will that help with the fur?
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Post by notneeson on Jul 6, 2024 10:16:14 GMT -6
The tone of two signals set up this way? 1. Mic into pre at -30db of gain Or 2. Mic into -20db in-line attenuator into mic pre at -50db gain I still sometimes hear a little hair in my vocals…it’s saturation. Wondering if hitting the pre less hot will open up some headroom. It’s not distorting/over or anything - I’m just saying will that help with the fur? I suppose it might depend on whether the hair is from the input or output stage of the pre. Under the above scenario the output transformer will still be seeing the same amount of level. Right? |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2024 10:31:09 GMT -6
Yeah there can be a difference in tone depending on the mic & pre. If you pad in front of the pre your not hitting the input as hard this can mean less saturation of the input transformer, of course this means your driving the output harder and can mean more output saturation. It’s a matter of taste which you prefer.
Just for the hell of it try setting up an spl meter app on your phone preferably with a peak level hold and see how hard you are actually hitting the mic, having a real idea of the peaks you are hitting can be very enlightening.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 6, 2024 10:40:07 GMT -6
The tone of two signals set up this way? 1. Mic into pre at -30db of gain Or 2. Mic into -20db in-line attenuator into mic pre at -50db gain I still sometimes hear a little hair in my vocals…it’s saturation. Wondering if hitting the pre less hot will open up some headroom. It’s not distorting/over or anything - I’m just saying will that help with the fur? John, is the mic in this case your tube Soyuz 017? If so, it’s certainly possible it’s putting out enough level to saturate the input stage of your pre. Do you typically go through a compressor or EQ next before hitting your A/D? If so, you may even be able to skip the pre entirely and just pickup a few dB from the subsequent stages (comp, EQ). But if you like the tone your pre is imparting, then sure, it’s worth a shot to attenuate the signal coming out of your tube mic. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2024 10:40:08 GMT -6
Yeah. That’s the thought - to hit the input transformer lighter…that’s where the hair is coming from, right?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2024 10:42:11 GMT -6
Maybe no one else cares, but man I hear that saturation when I really lay into something and it drives me crazy. Don’t think I really had this issue with the 32v ps and Helios…sigh
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2024 11:08:34 GMT -6
Yeah. That’s the thought - to hit the input transformer lighter…that’s where the hair is coming from, right? Probably, but it could also be the output iron. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 6, 2024 11:46:48 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat?
Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections.
Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics?
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Post by notneeson on Jul 6, 2024 11:59:44 GMT -6
Maybe no one else cares, but man I hear that saturation when I really lay into something and it drives me crazy. Don’t think I really had this issue with the 32v ps and Helios…sigh Weren't you going to grab a clean pre for your vocals at one point? |
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Post by kbsmoove on Jul 6, 2024 12:09:49 GMT -6
its also possible you're distorting the mic. i experience very loud singers distorting condenser mics once or twice a year. if the mic doesnt have a pad to reduce level going into the mic's electronics it can be fairly easy to distort them. no inline pad or pad on the pre will help you there.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 6, 2024 12:27:53 GMT -6
Yeah, these are all great points. Unfortunately you’ll have to experiment one variable at a time to figure out where exactly in the chain it’s happening.
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Post by drumsound on Jul 6, 2024 13:34:44 GMT -6
Yeah, these are all great points. Unfortunately you’ll have to experiment one variable at a time to figure out where exactly in the chain it’s happening. It's a chasing game, unfortunately |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2024 13:37:06 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat? Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections. Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics? I’ve heard it with just about every mic I’ve ever used…so it’s most likely me…it’s just like I have some kind of diamond-tipped for no one’s pleasure midrange. It’s not always there. Let me post an example. Maybe it’s room resonances. But it happens when I really hit a phrase hard and it comes off as fuzzy. One day I’m gonna figure out if it’s A) the capsule over loading (I’m not like strangely loud or anything) B) the pre saturating. It’s not clipping - I gain stage it around -6 C) saturation from the compressor D) Then Melodyne further hairs up the sound. And stuff like soothe being overused. Or too much eq processing. E) the result of a 13x22 room with A frame ceilings. Maybe just a lot of resonances cooped up? It was one reason I was asking about reflection filters…but sounds like those can intro issues too. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 6, 2024 14:09:43 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat? Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections. Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics? I’ve heard it with just about every mic I’ve ever used…so it’s most likely me…it’s just like I have some kind of diamond-tipped for no one’s pleasure midrange. It’s not always there. Let me post an example. Maybe it’s room resonances. But it happens when I really hit a phrase hard and it comes off as fuzzy. One day I’m gonna figure out if it’s A) the capsule over loading (I’m not like strangely loud or anything) B) the pre saturating. It’s not clipping - I gain stage it around -6 C) saturation from the compressor D) Then Melodyne further hairs up the sound. And stuff like soothe being overused. Or too much eq processing. E) the result of a 13x22 room with A frame ceilings. Maybe just a lot of resonances cooped up? It was one reason I was asking about reflection filters…but sounds like those can intro issues too. Record your vocal with a SDC and a Millennia/Gordon/GML pre and get a "clear" recording of your vocal to hear if it's your actual vocal that has an "edge" on certain syllables? Any device with a transformer in it can saturate unpredictably just by hitting it a certain way - it an odd thing I've noticed too. I solved all my vocal issues by using the Coil CA-70s and dialing back the NF to find the perfect tonal sweet spot in combination with my 47 and tracking comp (usually a Retro STA) I've often thought, the mics electronics have run out of headroom, but I don't think it is that. Try recording a sine wav with your mic/pre/comp and you get to see the harmonics being adding at a range of frequencies - it's interesting how different this is to handling the complex high energy formants of the human voice. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 6, 2024 14:39:37 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat? Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections. Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics? I’ve heard it with just about every mic I’ve ever used…so it’s most likely me…it’s just like I have some kind of diamond-tipped for no one’s pleasure midrange. It’s not always there. Let me post an example. Maybe it’s room resonances. But it happens when I really hit a phrase hard and it comes off as fuzzy. One day I’m gonna figure out if it’s A) the capsule over loading (I’m not like strangely loud or anything) B) the pre saturating. It’s not clipping - I gain stage it around -6 C) saturation from the compressor D) Then Melodyne further hairs up the sound. And stuff like soothe being overused. Or too much eq processing. E) the result of a 13x22 room with A frame ceilings. Maybe just a lot of resonances cooped up? It was one reason I was asking about reflection filters…but sounds like those can intro issues too. I feel like, if you've heard it on different mics (and I assume different rooms) that it is how your voice sounds. Most people hate their own voice, or at least something about it. Listeners might LOVE that thing a singer hates. You're a talented cat, we all know that. A 'dirty' resonance doesn't change that, and it might make you unique, in a good way. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 6, 2024 14:52:49 GMT -6
John, as previously mentioned, it could literally be an artifact within your voice that you are hearing. Since I doubt so many mics would exhibit the same sonic results? But there is a piece of gear, (sadly no longer made) but a new 500 series version is available that deals with this exact problem, ahead of the mic pre-amp. I bought a bunch of these, Spectra Sonics 611 Limiters, and use them in lots of different spots in my signal chains, in front of anything I want to protest from overs...peaks, or what have you! all to good effect. They just came out with the 500 series version with a mic pre that does both. Basically a small version of their 610 Comp/Limiter. But the versions I have, DO NOT have an output stage amplifier, so they need to go ahead of a mic pre, and were designed exactly to control the level ahead of the pre-amplifier. According to the company, and their literature, they are the fastest limiter ever built, and if set correctly will control the peaks before they hit the mic pre-amp, thus giving you even more headroom for the following Mic Preamp! If ya need to test one out...Let me know. Here's what the ones I have look like, although mine are all silver! vintageking.com/spectra-sonics-611b-blackAnd here's the new model in 500 series, which seems lie the best buy, as it has the mic pre within it. www.spectra1964.com/stx-600Right now I have a pair on my mix buss, ahead of the Head Quantum convertor! |
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Post by ml on Jul 6, 2024 19:30:17 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat? Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections. Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics? I’ve heard it with just about every mic I’ve ever used…so it’s most likely me…it’s just like I have some kind of diamond-tipped for no one’s pleasure midrange. It’s not always there. Let me post an example. Maybe it’s room resonances. But it happens when I really hit a phrase hard and it comes off as fuzzy. One day I’m gonna figure out if it’s A) the capsule over loading (I’m not like strangely loud or anything) B) the pre saturating. It’s not clipping - I gain stage it around -6 C) saturation from the compressor D) Then Melodyne further hairs up the sound. And stuff like soothe being overused. Or too much eq processing. E) the result of a 13x22 room with A frame ceilings. Maybe just a lot of resonances cooped up? It was one reason I was asking about reflection filters…but sounds like those can intro issues too. It’s not just you man I also have similar experiences with my own voice with various mics and pres. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,637
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2024 19:31:49 GMT -6
John, as previously mentioned, it could literally be an artifact within your voice that you are hearing. Since I doubt so many mics would exhibit the same sonic results? But there is a piece of gear, (sadly no longer made) but a new 500 series version is available that deals with this exact problem, ahead of the mic pre-amp. I bought a bunch of these, Spectra Sonics 611 Limiters, and use them in lots of different spots in my signal chains, in front of anything I want to protest from overs...peaks, or what have you! all to good effect. They just came out with the 500 series version with a mic pre that does both. Basically a small version of their 610 Comp/Limiter. But the versions I have, DO NOT have an output stage amplifier, so they need to go ahead of a mic pre, and were designed exactly to control the level ahead of the pre-amplifier. According to the company, and their literature, they are the fastest limiter ever built, and if set correctly will control the peaks before they hit the mic pre-amp, thus giving you even more headroom for the following Mic Preamp! If ya need to test one out...Let me know. Here's what the ones I have look like, although mine are all silver! vintageking.com/spectra-sonics-611b-blackAnd here's the new model in 500 series, which seems lie the best buy, as it has the mic pre within it. www.spectra1964.com/stx-600Right now I have a pair on my mix buss, ahead of the Head Quantum convertor! And Damn affordable to boot, |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2024 11:01:31 GMT -6
So it's basically a super quick and simple limiter before hitting the input transformer of the mic pre? The new 500 one is a pre, though too, right?
Just tried the CAPI Heider H2 - which I never really use on vocals because I've had it on acoustics...it's a super fast pre - and I don't think I'm getting the saturation - which is awesome. Need to to record something to confirm, though.
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Post by Ward on Jul 7, 2024 11:57:49 GMT -6
There is another factor in this: Where the pad is located in the mic's circuit. For example, IIRC the Neumann U47FET has two pads.... one between the capsule and amplifier, and one between the amp and output.
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Post by sean on Jul 7, 2024 12:09:32 GMT -6
The STX600 is a preamp, yes.
Its a neat device, Bill at SpectraSonic would probably send you a demo
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Post by svart on Jul 8, 2024 7:13:24 GMT -6
You're quite a powerful singer as I recall. Is it possible that you are someone who has a bit of hair in your voice when you push? A little vocal gravel that is happening in your throat? Also, if you're that powerful, you might just take a half step back for loud sections. Mark mentioned that Soyuz tube mic. Are you hearing it with other mics? I’ve heard it with just about every mic I’ve ever used…so it’s most likely me…it’s just like I have some kind of diamond-tipped for no one’s pleasure midrange. It’s not always there. Let me post an example. Maybe it’s room resonances. But it happens when I really hit a phrase hard and it comes off as fuzzy. One day I’m gonna figure out if it’s A) the capsule over loading (I’m not like strangely loud or anything) B) the pre saturating. It’s not clipping - I gain stage it around -6 C) saturation from the compressor D) Then Melodyne further hairs up the sound. And stuff like soothe being overused. Or too much eq processing. E) the result of a 13x22 room with A frame ceilings. Maybe just a lot of resonances cooped up? It was one reason I was asking about reflection filters…but sounds like those can intro issues too. A: Entirely possible. A membrane of any type will have some kind of resonant frequency. Even if it's well outside the normal frequency range, a combination of frequencies can still cause it to resonate at fractional frequencies.. I knew a singer that just seemed to excite mics like that. We finally picked a mic with a slightly different sized capsule and it seemed to help a lot. B: Saturation is a form of clipping, it's just a small amount and can be frequency dependent. C: I was actually going to suggest this. Compression is an artificial form of clipping but it's time and frequency dependent. ALL compressors add distortion/clipping/saturation(all degrees of the same thing). D: Probably not. It's probably only making it more apparent. E: Doubtful that the room is making that difference. Rooms will still have enough distance that the effects will be more time-based like comb filtering rather than distortion. I'd bet that it's just your voice and how it works through mics and gear. We all tend to dislike our own voices for some reason, so you may be overly-critical as well.. I'd like to offer a completely different solution.. ADD some subtle saturation to your vocals. It can "fill in" some of the hair and make it sound more natural. |
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Post by svart on Jul 8, 2024 7:19:40 GMT -6
The tone of two signals set up this way? 1. Mic into pre at -30db of gain Or 2. Mic into -20db in-line attenuator into mic pre at -50db gain I still sometimes hear a little hair in my vocals…it’s saturation. Wondering if hitting the pre less hot will open up some headroom. It’s not distorting/over or anything - I’m just saying will that help with the fur? The technical response is that yes, there is a difference. 1: will get full signal into the input transformer. Doubtful that it's saturating unless it was designed to do so. Transformers can typically take a LOT more signal than we give them credit for. 2: Will get 20dB less signal into the input transformer. It'd rule out the input saturating at least, but the make-up gain will need to be 20dB hotter. This WILL cause noise on the output to be 20dB higher since you are amplifying the signal AND the input noise floor 20dB more plus whatever internal noise is in the input section of the preamp. Another thing to watch out for is that preamps like Neve types with DC in the output transformer will act differently with more signal gain on the output section. This is why some designs have output attenuators, to add loading on the output transformer so you can stress it higher and get more distortion from it. |
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