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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 22, 2024 14:53:01 GMT -6
Just wrapped up for the day with a client, I’ve been spending some early mornings this week tuning his vocal (he’s a fairly new singer, needs a lot of work but great raw tone). My wife is still sleeping so I’ve been tuning on my (recently purchased) LCD-X’s. Anyway, comes time to listen to the tuning with him today and it sounds like shit…I wonder why that is? Have now fine tuned it on the monitors and it sounds much better. So odd since it sounded great on the hp’s. Does this happen to anyone else?
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Post by tyford on Jun 29, 2024 20:17:26 GMT -6
how loud in the cans? Too loud and you can alter pitch perception. Also when you're "done" for the day, your ears and brain need some rest.
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 29, 2024 20:26:40 GMT -6
Thanks tyford , great tip, certainly could be volume. Like I don’t have it at an uncomfortable level but could be a little too loud. |
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Post by drumsound on Jun 30, 2024 12:21:27 GMT -6
I once worked with singer who couldn't sing in tune with headphones on. we cut all his vocals in the control room.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 30, 2024 13:00:16 GMT -6
Too loud and you can alter pitch perception. Agreed. |
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Post by doubledog on Jun 30, 2024 13:16:01 GMT -6
I once worked with singer who couldn't sing in tune with headphones on. we cut all his vocals in the control room. I had a guy tell me that once too, but I soon figured out he could not sing in tune period.  |
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Post by gmichael on Jun 30, 2024 13:55:13 GMT -6
Cans are so unnatural an environment, it's harder for some more than others.
Headphones used effectively require learning just like anything else
I find that singers CAN demonstrate difficulty with recording in headphones with these circumstances resulting: too flat they can't hear,too sharp they aren't/can't listening or don't know how to listen.
All the obvious corrective adjustments can mitigate short term but ultimately it comes down to experience.
Cutting w/o cans is a pain for some but it's not difficult to set up and often the results feel more responsive to the music, or can(s).lol
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Post by chessparov on Jun 30, 2024 14:33:26 GMT -6
FWIW my unintentional/cheap seats solution was to end up going... The Direct Monitor button. Like on my Blackjack/Scarlett Solo or the Mix dial/no Effects ala MBox2 Mini/Audiobox You know. Those Prosumer USB Interface Classics (that Dan loves).   Chris |
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Post by christopher on Jun 30, 2024 15:08:43 GMT -6
I’ll guess that Lows in headphones mask the pitch? Going to speakers you probably don’t have as much low-forward response, and the high mids are forward, revealing all the nasty stuff. Try EQ Low shelving boost like crazy until the mids and highs are buried under a muddy wall of lows. For live-sound this is a wonderful way to hide all kinds of ugly stuff, it can sound awesome. Unfortunately for recording it increases dynamic range so that RMS might be around -20, and requires the listener have powerful system to get loudness. It can sound incredible on a truly great system, absolutely embarrassing on a crap system like a phone speaker. So yeah we have to mix for the crap system first
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,637 
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2024 16:52:04 GMT -6
One of the keys hear is what headphones and amp? For many the key with pitch isn’t exactly a raw harmonic distortion number but how it distorts. The irony here is monitoring through speakers may not make a difference because they may have a similar harmonic distortion profile.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 30, 2024 22:59:33 GMT -6
I once worked with singer who couldn't sing in tune with headphones on. we cut all his vocals in the control room. I had a guy tell me that once too, but I soon figured out he could not sing in tune period. My guy could actually sing. We ended up getting his lead vocals with the basics, because the room I worked in, I was able to put him behind a tall rack, and off axis of the speakers. He sounded great in there. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 1, 2024 4:46:49 GMT -6
Cans are so unnatural an environment, it's harder for some more than others. Headphones used effectively require learning just like anything else I find that singers CAN demonstrate difficulty with recording in headphones with these circumstances resulting: too flat they can't hear,too sharp they aren't/can't listening or don't know how to listen. All the obvious corrective adjustments can mitigate short term but ultimately it comes down to experience. Cutting w/o cans is a pain for some but it's not difficult to set up and often the results feel more responsive to the music, or can(s).lol My issue live with IEM's is my pitch is too good! I listen back to recordings of live performances and it sounds like a studio recording - too controlled - to polite - too well pitched! I've had to learn to loosen up and just get an edge on the pitch sometimes just a touch sharp at the right places can really make a vocal stand out in a good way (Ray Charles was the master of that technique) and have a certain live rock and roll energy. Headphones in the studio is a different issue imho, here (ime) it's not about the monitoring per say it's about over dubbing against a static pre recorded backing track - it's tricky even for the best singers. Live the sound is moving together, bass, guitar - it's all undergoing micro changes in pitch and dynamic intensity and a singer can move and mould with that and pitching is easy. A static backing track - that's not so easy to overdub to and many singers find it tricky. |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 1, 2024 8:57:40 GMT -6
I believe to my Soul. That Ray knew the right time. Me? I'm a pretty Astatic guy. Chris |
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Post by russellcreekps on Jul 1, 2024 18:52:16 GMT -6
One of the keys hear is what headphones and amp? For many the key with pitch isn’t exactly a raw harmonic distortion number but how it distorts. The irony here is monitoring through speakers may not make a difference because they may have a similar harmonic distortion profile. I’m using LCD-X into an Apollo x8. Appreciate all the feedback, went back and tuned on my monitors….much better now! |
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Post by svart on Jul 2, 2024 7:12:39 GMT -6
Just wrapped up for the day with a client, I’ve been spending some early mornings this week tuning his vocal (he’s a fairly new singer, needs a lot of work but great raw tone). My wife is still sleeping so I’ve been tuning on my (recently purchased) LCD-X’s. Anyway, comes time to listen to the tuning with him today and it sounds like shit…I wonder why that is? Have now fine tuned it on the monitors and it sounds much better. So odd since it sounded great on the hp’s. Does this happen to anyone else? There's the issue most likely. Planars are just a different animal altogether and it can take a few sessions to really *get* them. Planars are fatiguing as well. They sound amazing but I find them to be fatiguing because their top end is so extended. |
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Post by Dan on Jul 2, 2024 8:54:59 GMT -6
Just wrapped up for the day with a client, I’ve been spending some early mornings this week tuning his vocal (he’s a fairly new singer, needs a lot of work but great raw tone). My wife is still sleeping so I’ve been tuning on my (recently purchased) LCD-X’s. Anyway, comes time to listen to the tuning with him today and it sounds like shit…I wonder why that is? Have now fine tuned it on the monitors and it sounds much better. So odd since it sounded great on the hp’s. Does this happen to anyone else? There's the issue most likely. Planars are just a different animal altogether and it can take a few sessions to really *get* them. Planars are fatiguing as well. They sound amazing but I find them to be fatiguing because their top end is so extended. Most of them do not have a natural timbre and harmonics and bends sound quite odd. Audeze are like magnepans. Also Audeze used to make highly variable headphones. Some of them would be better than Sennheiser HD 580/600/650/modded 800 but other units would be middling to awful. The X is more consistent but cannot match the better 2-3 units. The drivers can also change in use. The one exception was the Hifiman HE-6 which required a speaker amp. The problem was nobody wanted to do that so everyone of Hifiman’s subsequent headphones wasn’t as good. I do find it very hard to judge tone on most headphones from the upper midrange issues and driver breakup. The hd25 and hd26 are some of the best but have their quirks. Sennheider hd580 and hd650 with fresh pads are also good but let the pads age and they become muffled. Hd600 is also very forward. Beyerdynamic doesn’t make their best headphone anymore, the DT 880 flat cup 600 ohm version. The ones that aren’t ancient have the round cup and are brighter. Beyer makes great but fragile mics but the headphones outside of the drummer cans and how comfy dt770 is usually aren’t very good. |
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Post by russellcreekps on Jul 2, 2024 16:48:41 GMT -6
svart, good to know about planars. In respect to fatigue, I love them and don’t find them fatiguing at all. Mainly use them to nail the bass (since I don’t have a sub), but started working really early in the morning, and used them for the first time tuning a vocal, so not to wake the wife . On another note (fatigue/monitors), I used to have the Shape Twins and found them really fatiguing in the high end so switched to LYD48’s and can mix for really long sessions on them without any fatigue (and translation has been much better!). dan imho I think they’re the most natural soundstage I’ve heard in a headphone (demo’d many but haven’t owned a ton)…like when I switch to monitors, it sounds pretty darn close. My pairs of NDH-20’s sound nothing like my monitors, but I’ve put in the hours and learned their sound in relation to the monitors for better sound selection and tracking. Also good to know on the timbre/harmonics.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 2, 2024 19:09:10 GMT -6
Both higher volume and anything covering your ears will kick your pitch perception sharp.
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Post by sean on Jul 2, 2024 21:54:57 GMT -6
I’ve worn my Audeze LCD-5 headphones for up to 12 hours a day working at home and find them less fatiguing than an average day in the studio. I can’t speak highly enough of them. But to Bob’s point I think listening at a low level is important when it comes to pitch
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Post by chessparov on Jul 2, 2024 22:52:29 GMT -6
That's why I always listen lying down.
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Post by russellcreekps on Jul 3, 2024 19:32:42 GMT -6
That's why I always listen lying down. Haha, well done Sir! |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 3, 2024 23:23:35 GMT -6
Well usually my jokes do fall flat. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 4, 2024 16:09:58 GMT -6
Both higher volume and anything covering your ears will kick your pitch perception sharp. But not IEM's My pitch perception on IEM's is excellent. Odd thing that, I've often wondered why? Perhaps it's because they're so close to your eardrum and therefore don't actually have to be very loud. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 4, 2024 19:30:23 GMT -6
I've been wondering about IEMs. You can hear the shift by just putting your hands over your ears.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,637
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Post by ericn on Jul 4, 2024 19:59:39 GMT -6
I've been wondering about IEMs. You can hear the shift by just putting your hands over your ears. Yeah I know a couple of artists where lucky enough the shift was consistent enough the monitor engineers would just put an Eventide or pitch correction across their outputs. |
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